Open discussion of future FC events.

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    Tolvo
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    Re: Open discussion of future FC events.

    Post by Tolvo on Mon Mar 19, 2012 12:03 am

    So far I'm fine without BS being allowed. However maybe we should give it sort of a trial to see how it goes? An FC with BS allowed and see just how people are with it. If people are just fishing and trying to take advantage we'll deal with that, but if people are still friendly and just having good duels without trying to abuse the rules we can just keep it as is you know? Just a thought.
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    Re: Open discussion of future FC events.

    Post by reim0027 on Mon Mar 19, 2012 12:06 am

    And a bugged ultra heavy weapon can easily do more damage. I was disappointed when my GC hit for less than 800.

    2 Roll R1 connect and game's almost over unless you are vit-gouged.

    Plus, you can bait BS attempts and try to punish them. Roll unlock, direct the R1 behind you - PAIN (unless their timing is really good).

    Or, you could purposely miss when they are just out of rolling range, they roll in for a BS, and you punish them for it: back up and attack, or roll to the side, then roll back behind them and BS (45 degree-45 degree).

    So much strategy can go into BSing. There is much more than poise pivot.


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    Re: Open discussion of future FC events.

    Post by Serious_Much on Mon Mar 19, 2012 12:07 am

    guys problem with allowing a BS is that people could just decide to buff their weapon and then BS their opponent for an instakill... But i don't want it to be like that and im sure most share my opinion.

    I don't wanna limit people's playstyle but are you guys gonna really suggest that BSing (something that is so controversial even within our small community), is perfectly fine then you're not thinking about others.

    To be honest i think it's okay if you got a faster weapon to dodge attacks then hit, dodge repeat on big weapons, punishes fine in my opinion. You guys gotta remember it's a chilled out friendly dueling club, not a try hard BS fishers association


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    Re: Open discussion of future FC events.

    Post by Forum Pirate on Mon Mar 19, 2012 12:12 am

    To my knowledge, If no hornets ring, bs with small weapons for an instant kill isn't possible excluding bow dragons.


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    Re: Open discussion of future FC events.

    Post by reim0027 on Mon Mar 19, 2012 12:14 am

    Most 120 builds should be able to survive a buffed BS of any weapon. So, it wouldn't be a OHK, unless you were already damaged. But, I do see your point . . . My counter would be enforcement on an anti BS fishing.

    This is a debatable/controversial problem. It is a very gray area and difficult to enforce for all fighters. Because of this, BS probably shouldn't be allowed. As much as I like the occ BS, it could cause some heated fights if someone loses to an "unfair" BS.


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    Re: Open discussion of future FC events.

    Post by Serious_Much on Mon Mar 19, 2012 12:18 am

    It's more that the fight's pretty much over if someone lands a BS on you with a CMW or DMB rapier/katana/whatever. Everyone can survive a BS mostly in fightclub but it diminishes the quality of duels i think.

    Also another problem is the fact that guys with big weapons can exploit it, as a BS is faster than a normal large weapon attack the can have their weapon buffed and that can pretty much settle a fight there and then pretty much..

    Can you guys not be satisfied with just the simple idea: small weapons hitting less and harder to dodge - big weapons hit more easier to dodge?

    I agree with Reim and thats what BS in duelling comes down to, it's simpler to not allow it because of the difficulty of policing subjective opinions on something that can cause arguments. Better to keep the aggro away from here in my opinion.


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    Re: Open discussion of future FC events.

    Post by Maneater_Mildred on Mon Mar 19, 2012 12:20 am

    Grey-Ronin wrote:I agree with all Reim's suggestions.

    The one thing I'd like to point out is that the maximum soul level for FC (at the moment SL120) should not be a suggestion but a requirement. I spent the vast majority of Saturday as a host and noticed some players were higher than SL120, which I think is not in the spirit of Fight Club. Now I would personally like the Max level to be SL125, but am happy to be at whatever the community likes.

    Respect your fellow combatants and don't try to get a sneaky advantage i think is the basic ideal of FC.

    I think we should do a poll about sl aswell.


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    Re: Open discussion of future FC events.

    Post by Forum Pirate on Mon Mar 19, 2012 12:23 am

    why not set it on a fight to fight basis? Spend a second decideing on the rules. If either party doesn't want to bs, no bs. If both parties agree bsing is fine, bs.


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    Re: Open discussion of future FC events.

    Post by CrackSouls on Mon Mar 19, 2012 12:25 am

    Phew... I came into this discussion rather late. I will read every one's views later but for now I just want to post one opinion on a hot topic:

    I think spells in duels should be allowed. Maybe if too many people think it's "OP" we can take out specific casts (like WoG for all those who be hatin'). But if we find a bigger arena than Blighttown, one that dodging spells is much easier, I think ALL spells should be allowed. And this is coming from some one who makes a lot of melee only builds.
    Spells add character and more dynamics to PVP in my opinion. I think Dark Souls did a good job of making them very dodgable, as long as your not fighting in that wee little arena in Btown.

    Edit:
    I'm I'm with most people for keeping Backstabs out. Not because of "cheapness" but because it makes fights less interesting and less fun (at least for me).


    Last edited by CrackSouls on Mon Mar 19, 2012 12:28 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : adding)


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    Re: Open discussion of future FC events.

    Post by Reaperfan on Mon Mar 19, 2012 12:28 am

    I've started the Wrath of the Gods and Backstab polls, so feel free to start racking up that unbiased raw data happy


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    Re: Open discussion of future FC events.

    Post by RANT on Mon Mar 19, 2012 12:29 am

    what im saying is that imo pivot bs'ing is cheap but if people dont mind then it stays.


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    Re: Open discussion of future FC events.

    Post by Forum Pirate on Mon Mar 19, 2012 12:34 am

    's why i said roll bs. roll and pivot are different.
    the difference is demonstrated here
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpZeX-RCat8V


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    Re: Open discussion of future FC events.

    Post by RANT on Mon Mar 19, 2012 12:58 am

    Forum Pirate wrote:'s why i said roll bs. roll and pivot are different.
    the difference is demonstrated here
    [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpZeX-RCat8V
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpZeX-RCat8V[/quote[/url]]

    theyre pretty much the same thing, the diff is pivots are harder to pull off but once you learn theyre easy to do, i only have a problem with it on FC, but if people dont care about it then it stays.


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    Re: Open discussion of future FC events.

    Post by Reaperfan on Mon Mar 19, 2012 1:35 am

    Alright guys, proposal for another event (since this thread is titled discussion of future FC events):

    Straight up boxing. Blighttown Arena. Only Caestus allowed, but no elemental upgrades. No spells or buffs except those provided by items. You are allowed two pieces of armor, as long as none of your armor provides any poise. Each participant must wear the Wolf Ring, with the second ring being up to the player. Soul level should be lower, most likely in the 45-60 range, though this needs to be discussed.

    Blighttown Arena because it is smaller and would stop people from having too much room for dodge-fests. Caestus only because they're the closest thing to boxing gloves. Claws are just swords with a horizontal hilt, the Dark Hand promotes grabbing and biting which are against the rules, and the Dragon Bone Fists are the equivalent of bronze knuckles. No poise armor and Wolf Ring is to universalize the poise amount among contestants to prevent stunlocks from being too easy, as well as to prevent the audience from having to look at naked people :|
    Soul Level discussion, go!


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    Re: Open discussion of future FC events.

    Post by Tolvo on Mon Mar 19, 2012 1:40 am

    Reaper you are describing what I was trying to do with Yesuurd before FC the other knight! I wanted to wrestle him, had a costume and everything but we couldn't connect! Damn internet.
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    Re: Open discussion of future FC events.

    Post by WyrmHero on Mon Mar 19, 2012 2:38 am

    Actually I have a Bruce Lee toon in progress. I put 40 points on str and none on dex, because I wanted him to be able to do lots of damage with the dragon bone fists. He wears trousers and it's in progress of getting the dragon torso. He uses Emit Force, Wrath of Gods, Sunlight Blade and all the pyromancies.


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    Re: Open discussion of future FC events.

    Post by Maneater_Mildred on Mon Mar 19, 2012 3:02 am

    WyrmHero wrote:Actually I have a Bruce Lee toon in progress. I put 40 points on str and none on dex, because I wanted him to be able to do lots of damage with the dragon bone fists. He wears trousers and it's in progress of getting the dragon torso. He uses Emit Force, Wrath of Gods, Sunlight Blade and all the pyromancies.

    Bruce lee was a dragon? :shock:


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    Re: Open discussion of future FC events.

    Post by WyrmHero on Mon Mar 19, 2012 5:13 am

    Maneater_Mildred wrote:
    WyrmHero wrote:Actually I have a Bruce Lee toon in progress. I put 40 points on str and none on dex, because I wanted him to be able to do lots of damage with the dragon bone fists. He wears trousers and it's in progress of getting the dragon torso. He uses Emit Force, Wrath of Gods, Sunlight Blade and all the pyromancies.

    Bruce lee was a dragon? :shock:



    LOL


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    Re: Open discussion of future FC events.

    Post by Serious_Much on Mon Mar 19, 2012 9:44 am

    Maneater_Mildred wrote:
    WyrmHero wrote:Actually I have a Bruce Lee toon in progress. I put 40 points on str and none on dex, because I wanted him to be able to do lots of damage with the dragon bone fists. He wears trousers and it's in progress of getting the dragon torso. He uses Emit Force, Wrath of Gods, Sunlight Blade and all the pyromancies.

    Bruce lee was a dragon? :shock:

    It's called "Enter the Dragon" for a reason, guys silly


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    Re: Open discussion of future FC events.

    Post by Forum Pirate on Mon Mar 19, 2012 12:38 pm

    So.... i've seen a lot of "bs makes the fight less interesting" from players who also state they suck at bs. The way i see it, the hornets ring makes it less interesting, not bsing. Bsing adds depth to pvp, is this attack safe, how close are they, can i counter bs, can i parry their attempt? all these questions must be considered when fighting with bsing allowed. Being bad at bsing gives the illusion that it removes depth, same as being bad at dodging the zweihander.

    I'm not the best, but i will happily teach any one who pms me to bs/counter attempts so they can experience dks dueling in all its glory. You really are limiting yourselves and missing out. Bs fishing is a dull tactic, but its just the surface of the system and easily punished by people who can actually bs.

    Its the same as wog, its easy for unskilled rubes to spam and kill people, but real fighters (esp mages) will destroy them for being so terribly predictable.


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    Re: Open discussion of future FC events.

    Post by Serious_Much on Mon Mar 19, 2012 12:46 pm

    Sorry forum to play the advocate, but i could easily use the same logic, you havent experienced the full glory of PvP until you've invaded and won a 3v1, yet you still wouldnt ask for that to be in fight club.

    The point that truly you need to address to justify BS is whether you have a reasonable response to the blatant abuse that allowing BS will bring. How do you think you could regulate it efficiently?

    Like I said before, even after the polls (which show BS is probably gonna be allowed) I still think we should test the rules afterwards in practice to make sure we're all happy with them before permanently adding them to the FC rules.


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    Re: Open discussion of future FC events.

    Post by Forum Pirate on Mon Mar 19, 2012 12:59 pm

    You would be right on your 3v1 point. My point was, 'abusing' bsing only really happens when
    a: they have the hornets ring as any 1hko melee attack is a serious balance issue

    b: the other party isn't capable of defending against it.

    c:lag, which is really just part of b but deserves a mention

    if the hornets ring is banned, no 0hko unless you get yourself bsd by a buffed ultra great weapon, then participants will get good at both defending against and scoring back stabs. It will be an issue for a bit, you're probably right, but i think you'll find fc more fun and better practice once the group gets used to it.


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    Re: Open discussion of future FC events.

    Post by Serious_Much on Mon Mar 19, 2012 1:05 pm

    indeed, we will get accustomed to it if we do have it permanently.

    I will choose not to BS since I know mine will be bacause of lag (my rubbish connection lol) and im sure others will also actively choose to not BS even if you are allowed to.

    I still think testing in FC to see if it's okay or if we cannot decide on how to regulate it sufficiently. I'll wait until reaper's polls are finished before I start thinking of how to test out the set of rules the poll spews out for us though

    edit: you ninja'd me reaper, like i said above, we'll put something into practice and fine tune it according to what seems reasonable, or scrap it if it's all that bad (i doubt that outcome, but it's possible)


    Last edited by Serious_Much on Mon Mar 19, 2012 1:07 pm; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: Open discussion of future FC events.

    Post by Reaperfan on Mon Mar 19, 2012 1:06 pm

    Serious_Much wrote:How do you think you could regulate it efficiently?

    Here's how I would word it:

    Backstabbing will only be allowed when used as a defensive or countering measure. Specifically, when the opponent is in the startup or cooldown animations of an attacking move or spell, or if they have not made an offensive move in more than 10 seconds, and you have not attempted a backstab in more than 10 seconds.

    The startup/cooldown window seems to be a clear standard to judge if it was a punish or not, and the 10 seconds of no aggression makes it clear when it is used as a countermeasure to turtling. The 10 seconds between attempts prevents chain backstabbing, as well as backstab fishing, but still allows them to be used against turtles as a strategic tactic. Please critique this to your hearts content happy

    EDIT: Though I am also open to freely allowing it to see how it plays out before making anything concrete. I'm just theorizing here for the future winking


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    Re: Open discussion of future FC events.

    Post by Forum Pirate on Mon Mar 19, 2012 1:22 pm

    not bad. only 2 points.

    i'd probably go 4 or 6 seconds (from the bsd characters resuming normal movement) as the stamina bar usually 2 or 3 to fully regen. that could be a lot of rolling gc attacks to dodge.

    and the counter bs. i can see your attempt and circle back and left (usually) and bs you instead, you wouldn't be in an attack animation but it was a defensive manuver and only works against bs attempts (usually catches the odd running or jumping attack).


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