Open discussion of future FC events.

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    Re: Open discussion of future FC events.

    Post by Tolvo on Mon Mar 19, 2012 1:37 pm

    3v1 in Fight Club? Sounds splendid, I'll go get my Murakumo!
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    Re: Open discussion of future FC events.

    Post by Yesuurd on Mon Mar 19, 2012 1:42 pm

    I am reading all of your posts and while I can see the logic behind every aspect of you opinions you are not considering on key aspect, you can overcomplicate the FC to a point
    where it will be to tedious to attend and take all of the fun out of it.

    I believe we need to focus on what works and what doesn't, we can't start
    making equations for different scenarios or else we will be done for.


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    Re: Open discussion of future FC events.

    Post by Reaperfan on Mon Mar 19, 2012 1:46 pm

    Yesuurd wrote:I am reading all of your posts and while I can see the logic behind every aspect of you opinions you are not considering on key aspect, you can overcomplicate the FC to a point
    where it will be to tedious to attend and take all of the fun out of it.

    I believe we need to focus on what works and what doesn't, we can't start
    making equations for different scenarios or else we will be done for.

    I don't think it would be too hard to regulate. Just have the host act as a judge and keep track of what's going on. Gives them a way to be more actively involved in the process besides being the guy who decided to stop his game at Sen's Fortress/Blighttown.

    I agree that we should try a simple anything-goes weekend and see what happens though. We can discuss it all we want but nothing will show flaws in a ruleset better than experiencing them first-hand.


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    Re: Open discussion of future FC events.

    Post by Serious_Much on Mon Mar 19, 2012 1:57 pm

    Yesuurd wrote:I am reading all of your posts and while I can see the logic behind every aspect of you opinions you are not considering on key aspect, you can overcomplicate the FC to a point
    where it will be to tedious to attend and take all of the fun out of it.

    I believe we need to focus on what works and what doesn't, we can't start
    making equations for different scenarios or else we will be done for.

    I agree, the simplicity of "no BS" just rings out within your words.

    The way that you guys are having to make such bureaucratic rules shows to me that BS is more trouble than it's worth, even with rules it'll get abused, there will be arguments etc.

    Also having time limits for BS is impossible to keep track of. I don't see how this is gonna be practical to implement, and that system really isn't one i'd use.


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    Re: Open discussion of future FC events.

    Post by Emergence on Mon Mar 19, 2012 2:02 pm

    As someone who is creating toons just for hosting I would rather not "moderate" or use judgement to be honest. That is me being completely subjective but if the community wants the hosts to have that kind of referee power, so be it . It's different if they say no backstabs and someone backstabs, I can easily enforce that and not worry about an argument. But if I'm now asked to gauge intent, i.e. fishing that opens it up for argument. I would rather not wear the hat of arbiter in that situation, it would actually be rather uncomfortable given that I am a site admin. I would prefer to host to have fun and simply enjoy the scene. I think it would really be beneficial to have clear rules that leave little to personal judgement.

    TL,DR When hosting, I want to be free from scorn of power


    Last edited by Emergence on Mon Mar 19, 2012 2:05 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Terrible spelling)


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    Re: Open discussion of future FC events.

    Post by Reaperfan on Mon Mar 19, 2012 2:05 pm

    Serious_Much wrote:I agree, the simplicity of "no BS" just rings out within your words.

    Simplicity doesn't mean better. The only reason I'm here discussing this kind of stuff is because of my previous near-hollowing at the problem with stale PvP. With simply saying "no backstabs," you're cutting out anyone who may want to use a dagger or smaller rapier, completely removing counterplay to an entire class of build (tanks and heavy weapon users), and the one that really, really, really gets to me...further encouraging the abuse of the DWGR (at least by extension). As long as backstabs are not allowed, poke-and-run will always be the prevalent strategy, because nothing else makes sense in terms of effectiveness. Backstabs, when handled properly, will add a layer of dynamics to the scene, and dare I say, make it fun to watch or participate in by creating alot more high-tension situations of risk/reward.


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    Re: Open discussion of future FC events.

    Post by Forum Pirate on Mon Mar 19, 2012 2:05 pm

    Then, no bs chain is just as simple and would work better after a couple weeks. once it can be defended against, its not abuseable. and you underestimate the fc members. nothing is abused now, because the members want fun duels not instakills and straffe dances. Why would that change?


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    Re: Open discussion of future FC events.

    Post by Tolvo on Mon Mar 19, 2012 2:08 pm

    I think it should also come to the question do we want a simple set of rules, or are we going to draft an entire constitution that if anyone wants to join in on FC they have to read and be well versed upon the many rules, scenarios where/when applicable, as well as how to deal with breakers of certain rules. Simple doesn't not mean better always, but it can. Things have gone well as they are. Also rapiers are still extremely dangerous weapons without BS, and it depends on the dagger. Some have bleed effects, as well if you want the critical damage go for a riposte. As well if you want critical damage other weapons actually do more, so would you not want a dagger for the move sets if everything else is better? If you want it for the move sets, why are you going for BS?
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    Re: Open discussion of future FC events.

    Post by Serious_Much on Mon Mar 19, 2012 2:12 pm

    Forum Pirate wrote:Then, no bs chain is just as simple and would work better after a couple weeks. once it can be defended against, its not abuseable. and you underestimate the fc members. nothing is abused now, because the members want fun duels not instakills and straffe dances. Why would that change?

    because at the moment BS is not allowed. If it is allowed the possibility of things like that come into play. Even the best players if they have no health or option left are sometimes gonna BS fish.

    Reaper, daggers and rapiers are great when used with buffs. Also based on your opinion of them even having the one BS rule will limit them beyond usage and viability anyway (without hornets, which we definitely won't allow). Yes poke and run is a prevalent strategy but frankly that's what most of PvP is.

    Your point at the end with high tension fights? thats exactly what we don't want. Tension from BSing leads to arguments, and I'm sure the mod team and hosts have better things to do than sort petty squabbles over whether it was fair or not.

    Also, I agree with emergence. I'm making a build to host and occasionally step into the ring for the odd duel. I do not want to have to decide what was fair or not, I just wanna kick back and watch the spectacle, i don't want hate from guys because I made a bad call on a BS or something like that :|


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    Re: Open discussion of future FC events.

    Post by Reaperfan on Mon Mar 19, 2012 2:17 pm

    Forum Pirate wrote:Then, no bs chain is just as simple and would work better after a couple weeks. once it can be defended against, its not abuseable. and you underestimate the fc members. nothing is abused now, because the members want fun duels not instakills and straffe dances. Why would that change?

    This seems alot simpler, and I would be absolutely fine with this since I whole-heartedly respect the integrity of our members happy
    I just start getting worked up when it comes to (for lack of a better phrase) encouragement of boredom. I want to take a full out Havel clone build and fear being backstabbed as a result, because it's the only way I could not get called out on turtling, even though with the current "no backstab" rules, turtling until buffs wear off would be the most effective strategy for said Havel build to use. I want to see thief builds in Shadow Garb somersaulting around (read as 'not flipping') with daggers. I'm tired of seeing "Family mask, 2 pieces of Giant's Armor, 1 piece of Medium Armor, rapier or katana with CMW/SLB/DMB." I'm imagining a world where PvP is fun to watch and participate in because everyone plays differently, and I'm struggling to try and show this vision to others sad


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    Re: Open discussion of future FC events.

    Post by Serious_Much on Mon Mar 19, 2012 2:19 pm

    I'm gonna have to double post here. We're named after a hypothetical club in an extremely popular film. It's rules are just these:

    1st RULE: You do not talk about FIGHT CLUB.
    2nd RULE: You DO NOT talk about FIGHT CLUB.
    3rd RULE: If someone says "stop" or goes limp, taps out the fight is over.
    4th RULE: Only two guys to a fight.
    5th RULE: One fight at a time.
    6th RULE: No shirts, no shoes.
    7th RULE: Fights will go on as long as they have to.
    8th RULE: If this is your first night at FIGHT CLUB, you HAVE to fight.

    Basically only 7 rules. The simplicity of these rules are great. I cannot understand why you want to put in such complicated rules, especially when they will just cause trouble. I understand over simplicity is bad, but here the rules need to be clear cut and not open to opinion.

    If you want varied? use magic, use a bow, change weapons mid fight. Dodge around sometimes, tank the occasional blow. You don't need BS to make fights fun in my view. When FC was first started up, there were no BS, and if there was you'd heal and restart, no argument and everyone loved it. Dunno why people feel it needs to change


    Last edited by Serious_Much on Mon Mar 19, 2012 2:21 pm; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: Open discussion of future FC events.

    Post by Emergence on Mon Mar 19, 2012 2:19 pm

    By the way you are all to be commended on how civil this discussion is progressing.

    Hats off.


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    Re: Open discussion of future FC events.

    Post by Tolvo on Mon Mar 19, 2012 2:21 pm

    See I find allowing BS to be boring, and I'm the guy who will be medium rolling mostly and switching costumes for every single fight.
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    Re: Open discussion of future FC events.

    Post by Serious_Much on Mon Mar 19, 2012 2:22 pm

    btw great double post emergence silly


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    Re: Open discussion of future FC events.

    Post by Emergence on Mon Mar 19, 2012 2:24 pm

    What double post? big grin


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    Re: Open discussion of future FC events.

    Post by Tolvo on Mon Mar 19, 2012 2:27 pm

    Ah, abuse of power! Deleting posts to keep the flawless view of the demi-gods that are the administrators and moderators of the Dark Souls forums perfect!

    By the way, I am working on levelling up a toon to host. As mentioned on this toon I am leaving three lords alive, Seath has to die so I can get my spells! So, is anyone interested in any areas for duels within these three domains?
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    Re: Open discussion of future FC events.

    Post by Serious_Much on Mon Mar 19, 2012 2:27 pm

    Emergence wrote:What double post? big grin

    lol, I call emergence is an amazing Forum Lord and he deserves to receive a cookie silly

    also tolvo im not sure of anywhere that might be good... Izalith on the bridge would be kinda epic in my opinion actually.

    BTW guys where is Fight club going to be mostly now? Blighttown or Sen's? I wanna know where to leave my hosting character.


    Last edited by meridam99 on Mon Mar 19, 2012 2:44 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : further abuse of Moderator power!)


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    Re: Open discussion of future FC events.

    Post by Reaperfan on Mon Mar 19, 2012 2:27 pm

    Serious_Much wrote:Reaper, daggers and rapiers are great when used with buffs. Also based on your opinion of them even having the one BS rule will limit them beyond usage and viability anyway (without hornets, which we definitely won't allow). Yes poke and run is a prevalent strategy but frankly that's what most of PvP is.

    Your point at the end with high tension fights? thats exactly what we don't want. Tension from BSing leads to arguments, and I'm sure the mod team and hosts have better things to do than sort petty squabbles over whether it was fair or not.

    First, if daggers are so great with buffs, why have I not seen any of them? I know rapiers are. They are highly used because they compliment the poke-and-run fighting style, and poke-and-run is only "most of what PvP is" because of the DWGR and no backstab rules.

    Second, by high-tension fights I mean tension in strategic decisions. What tension is there in fishing for a poke with a washing pole? Or flipping around spamming rolling attacks with an Estoc? These actions have almost no consequence, and cause people to sit back behind their weapon, scared to do anything else because of the risk/reward. Maybe I worded it wrong. What I'm looking for is not tension, but dynamics in descisions made mid-combat. Things that require strategy to use because failing to execute them properly results in a less than positive outcome for you. As it is now, there is no Yomi, only one style of fighting that makes any sense because our rules as to what we have declared "unfair" take away dynamic combat descisions.


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    Re: Open discussion of future FC events.

    Post by Forum Pirate on Mon Mar 19, 2012 2:29 pm

    I don't want 'critical damage', i want a meaningful way to punish big weapons once my buff wears off.

    134 damage from a kat poke doesn't make much difference when i can only hit once or i'll take 500 damage. bsing provides one as that was one of its primary functions.

    the only reason i ever touch spears (which i hate) is poking large weapon users in fc. without bsing, the large weapons, the gc and dga in particular, can roll r1 spam all night with any 1-2 hits being fatal whilst everyone else has to hit 13 times. seems a touch unbalanced.

    as i've said, i'll teach anyone who asks how to both bs and defend against it so they spend less time being dominated by the members who can and more time in fun and interesting duels.


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    Re: Open discussion of future FC events.

    Post by Tolvo on Mon Mar 19, 2012 2:31 pm

    Forum I'm pretty sure ability to perform a BS is not a cause for anyone's views on this. Performing rolling, pivot, and punish BS is incredibly easy. As well BS can flat out be cancelled if you know how to. The issue is just the mentality that will come as well as the possible misunderstandings and arguments that could arise.
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    Re: Open discussion of future FC events.

    Post by Yesuurd on Mon Mar 19, 2012 2:32 pm

    @Emergence

    What I was saying is somewhat co-related to your opinion in many ways, in fact it
    summarizes much more of what is behind my "simplicity post".

    @Reaperfan

    I appreciate your opinion and although you think it would not be hard to regulate, I would ask many of the players who have hosted FC if they agree, I have seen so much
    disagreement over 1 little issue, if we get more complicated then I fear everything could crumble and also having hosted some tournaments I know there are times things get so hectic and no even more with much more new player, that hosts can't keep track of everything.Hosts enjoy fighting too and sacrifice time and effort for others to have fun, but if they have to enforce 100 laws I think most will not want to host.

    @Serious

    Well, I am just part of the FC and have not made even one rule so I don't know about that
    comment, the rules were made I think once by rant and then others for the SWORDS FC and well only some organizational ones for the tournamente (atleast as long as I have been around which is not as long as even you I think).

    My comment was global so it does not apply to BS or any other specific matter as the ones being discussed, but I did understand your point there and agree that one is of the
    most important of all, not only because of FC but because it is so discussed in the whole
    community at all times no matter if for FC or normal pvp.

    @Reaperfan 2nd post

    I never said simplicity is better, I specified the implications and dangers of overcomplicating things and also you yourself made a great point when you
    say some people can be excluded etc... There you have the great dilemma
    not only of FC but of life "we can never make every single person happy"
    I wish it was possible but it isn't....

    Ok my hands hurt and I gotta go eat, great points here let's just not get
    too hyped over all these things and keep our cool, seems discussion still
    is going relatively composed.

    @Forum Pirate

    You make a really good point there when you mention FC members and no chain BS
    is one simple rule which is part of my point, also as more members arise we have more
    area for foul play so we need to try and keep it all together.


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    Re: Open discussion of future FC events.

    Post by Serious_Much on Mon Mar 19, 2012 2:35 pm

    reaper, thing is while you're saying that, you neglect the fact that you can use ranged attacks too. throw dung for all i care silly That can keep it varied. Not a BS that can basically decide a fight out of a bit of lag :| Like I said before, there's more than just BS to add to the equation and you're neglecting that fact a little bit reaper.

    Also, you can't blame dodging around lots on DWGR... The entirity of PvP is based on getting hits in while not taking damage. I'm no expert but that equals dodging attacks. It is what most of PvP is because people dodge and try to attack. Frankly adding BS in wont remove this fact, it will barely change it. All i see it doing is preventing guys with big weapons from competing. I honestly think that having BS is more of a disservice to the big weapon guys than it is to people who use rapiers and daggers.

    Also the dagger think, i was gonna upgrade one, but I killed Sieg on my playthrough instead of getting slab Prostration I'm a moron lol!

    Also to add to what yesuurd just said, I agree that having too many rules would be bad, like i said in my previous post. We can test out BS which i actually think we should, but if issues and arguments arise over it, we should scrap the concept so we can avoid unnecessary conflicts like that


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    Re: Open discussion of future FC events.

    Post by Tolvo on Mon Mar 19, 2012 2:40 pm

    Also as Emergence said I'm glad everyone has kept there cool so far, and lets try and keep it that way. We have a good deal of time before the next FC, so time is not an issue so there is no need to feel hard pressed to change the rules if you believe there should be changed. We're just a bunch of guys(As there are no females on the internet) trying to figure out what would be the most enjoyable experience in a video game.

    If I see anyone getting a bit stressed out, I will go into The Dude mode. 8)
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    Re: Open discussion of future FC events.

    Post by Yesuurd on Mon Mar 19, 2012 2:42 pm

    P.S- Love for all my homies, minus Tolvo because he refuses to wear pants still...


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    Re: Open discussion of future FC events.

    Post by Reaperfan on Mon Mar 19, 2012 2:42 pm

    Serious_Much wrote:reaper, thing is while you're saying that, you neglect the fact that you can use ranged attacks too. throw dung for all i care silly That can keep it varied. Not a BS that can basically decide a fight out of a bit of lag :| Like I said before, there's more than just BS to add to the equation and you're neglecting that fact a little bit reaper.

    Also, you can't blame dodging around lots on DWGR... The entirity of PvP is based on getting hits in while not taking damage. I'm no expert but that equals dodging attacks. It is what most of PvP is because people dodge and try to attack. Frankly adding BS in wont remove this fact, it will barely change it. All i see it doing is preventing guys with big weapons from competing. I honestly think that having BS is more of a disservice to the big weapon guys than it is to people who use rapiers and daggers.

    Also the dagger think, i was gonna upgrade one, but I killed Sieg on my playthrough instead of getting slab I'm a moron lol!

    I was thinking through my response to this when I realized I'm really starting to get upset, and my train of thought is getting more and more emotional and less and less practical. I'll be leaving the conversation for a while to cool down, and be back in a few hours, hopefully with a more level head. Until then, you guys have fun with your flipping poke fests. I'll be doing something interesting.


    _________________

    "To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up." ~C.S. Lewis

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    Re: Open discussion of future FC events.

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