Dark Souls Without Backstabs

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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Animaaal on Tue Jan 29, 2013 11:26 pm

    Oh_the_Humanity wrote:...Everything is effected by lag, yes.
    But, the only thing that suffers because of lag is the BS...

    I appreciate your point of view, but there are other things that suffer from lag. Take phantom damage for instance. I could live without it for sure. Also, I for one think parries should be onsight, and I know I've blocked (excluding dead angles) and still taken damage.

    Also, I hope we dont have to wait for DkS2 or (Demon's Souls 3 lol). But you are prolly right bud. sad

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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Animaaal on Tue Jan 29, 2013 11:28 pm

    Sorry for the double post and getting a little off topic but...

    ...I think Dark Souls 2 will be just as, if not more, innovative than the previous installments....another thing I differ on than most.
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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Oh_the_Humanity on Tue Jan 29, 2013 11:43 pm

    Animaaal wrote:Sorry for the double post and getting a little off topic but...

    ...I think Dark Souls 2 will be just as, if not more, innovative than the previous installments....another thing I differ on than most.

    I agree, and cant wait!
    Phantom damage sucks as well as dead angles, but there not nearly as annoying, to me anyway. Dead angles dont bother me, but phantom range is quite annoying.

    What is the main difference between DeS BS's and DkS BS's?
    if no one was complaining in DeS (like someone posted earlier) then why dont we just take a step back and see what changed?
    I never owned DeS, so I dont have much to add on that.


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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Forum Pirate on Tue Jan 29, 2013 11:51 pm

    I really don't want sight parries. They make PvE pathetic enough, even faster strikes like the hollow thieves its still easy.

    DoA (assuming you mean Dead or Alive) is faster paced and the grabs deal with extremely small distances, so it might not be as noticeable but I promise there were plenty of successful grabs that shouldn't have worked from the perspective of the person being grabbed. It just skates under the radar. (there weren't many vaccum stabs in des in my experience, for the same reasons)

    Really, lag asside, I think the hitbox should be smaller. I dissagree that its fine as is.

    If a BS is the end of a hit stun combo, one can piviot parry (tap towards ones back and immediately parry) to break out and counter attack at the same time. Its tricky, but incorporating a full blown mechanic would devalue the skill/knowledge/timing necessary to break out as is. The only time such an escape is impossible, is when the bs is punishing a missed swing/cast/item use, where one doesn't deserve to escape becaus


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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Forum Pirate on Tue Jan 29, 2013 11:56 pm

    They made not one, but multiple mistakes at the same time


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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Animaaal on Wed Jan 30, 2013 1:10 am

    Well, based on what I understand from the mods and pros and people I've talked with and played with since about March of 2011, the biggest difference (or most notable) between DeS and DkS backstabs is the roll cancel. Its why some Dark Souls players incorporate the Thorn Armor in some way or fashion. They are trying to replicate the same effect.

    Backstabs weren't "complained" about as much, imo, because of this roll cancel and the fact the game was new and exciting. People were still trying to wrap their heads around the experience.

    When the real debate started happening, a lot of statements were made about how poise makes backstabs seem easier in DkS (which is completely logical) or international lag is what makes backstabs seem easier in Dark Souls.

    I just listened to these conversations when dark souls came out. In some forums conversations like these were toxic. Threads were full of Dark Souls Haters/Demon's Souls Loyalists and unfair critiquing of a, soon to be, legendary game. It all started with the p2p threads.....but anyways... :Baal03:

    That is not a clear definition, I apologize. The differences between the 2 are more complicated than that. Simply out, I think the hitbox was slightly bigger in Demon's Souls and the p2p system of Dark Souls makes the hitbox seem bigger than it is. However miniscule the diffrence might be.

    As far as the animations of backstabs in DeS...they were sloppy as he||. Watch this video and you can see the difference. The quality is horrible, but you dont even need it to see how outrageous some of these backstabs look:



    With regards to when someone deserves to be immune from backstabs...
    I'd say one deserves to be immune from a backstab when they are immune to a backstab....because they rolled, that is all I've said all along.


    Last edited by Animaaal on Wed Jan 30, 2013 1:53 am; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : grammer)
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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Forum Pirate on Wed Jan 30, 2013 3:21 am

    Yeah the animation is sloppy, I was there.

    Thats not a vaccum stab or tele stab, thats just an absurd looking or long range backstab. Perception plays a big part in what is or isn't complained about.

    Where I was aware that long range stabs were possible and could be accounted for, vaccum stabs make one feel safe, and then get pulled backwards out of their safety and into a back stab. It amounts to the same thing, but it looks different. I expect long range stabs, but with tele stabs I believe I'm safe and am initiating my response, when I'm caught by it. I generally deserved the bs, so it doesn't bother me now, but it used to.

    That also looks like high lag (or I had excellent luck,) if my opponents weapon (excluding daggers) wasn't poking out of my chest during the bs, it wasn't happening in the first place)

    (for the record, I had awesome internet at the time)


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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Sentiel on Wed Jan 30, 2013 5:54 am

    ComaPrison wrote:here's an idea. get rid of the vulnerability that is on when you are in the backstab animation
    Backstab train into oblivion.
    Choochoo! lol!

    Animaaal wrote:
    Oh_the_Humanity wrote:
    Ashran wrote:
    -New get-up attacks to avoid chains.

    Genius!

    I'll second that. There is the stand up immunity, but I like this idea better.
    What if it will be parriable? winking


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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Animaaal on Wed Jan 30, 2013 3:09 pm



    At apprx 27 seconds you can see an example of a tele stab and the roll cancel effect. Its not as pronounced as in some cases in Dark Souls, but is still there none-the-less. Its also an example of a straight up bada$$ winning a 5 vs 1.

    It is my understanding that the reason for this occurance in DeS was because the roll immunity would register in time, but not soon enough to cancel the animation.

    As opposed to Dark Souls, where the immunity doesn't register in time, therefore the backstabee still takes damage (in most cases).

    In both cases, they are the direct result of lag. Being that, a hitbox tail is created and unable to be compensated for. If I had to pick one, I'd go with roll cancels, which we'll probably see with dedicated servers. I'm just saying I think there is a more creative way to improve it. I dont believe a smaller hitbox will delete the tail, which I believe is the crux of the problem.

    I simply think a breakout move with bullet time would provide a way to even the scales in the long run. Of course if it wasnt done right, we would then have another problem compounding the current, which I dont believe is a good idea either. I dont think that adding a breakout move would inherently add more problems. I think it could be done efficiently and tastefully while adding depth to an already deep combat system, that is all.


    Sentiel wrote:
    ComaPrison wrote:here's an idea. get rid of the vulnerability that is on when you are in the backstab animation
    Backstab train into oblivion.
    Choochoo! lol!

    Animaaal wrote:
    Oh_the_Humanity wrote:
    Ashran wrote:
    -New get-up attacks to avoid chains.

    Genius!

    I'll second that. There is the stand up immunity, but I like this idea better.
    What if it will be parriable? winking

    Sure, why not? Or, I mean no....or...good question, idk man.
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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Oh_the_Humanity on Wed Jan 30, 2013 3:21 pm

    Animaaal wrote: I dont think that adding a breakout move would inherently add more problems. I think it could be done efficiently and tastefully while adding depth to an already deep combat system, that is all.

    Thats what I was saying when I first brought it up.
    I shouldn't have brought the breakout idea into this thread. It just confused things. But on its own could add to the game just as you described.


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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Oh_the_Humanity on Wed Jan 30, 2013 3:26 pm

    Ok, another idea popped into my head.
    What if there was a type of parry for backstabs?
    (This is not an idea to fix anything)
    So as someone is about to BS you, as he starts his BS but before the blade enters your back, you hold X (A) and press L2, which would put your arm behind you back, grab the backstabbers hand, turn around and kick them away from you.
    What do you think?

    Obviously there would have to be a small window of opportunity, so it;s not to easy to pull off.


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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Forum Pirate on Thu Jan 31, 2013 4:45 am

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECtUrIejWV0
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhP2q4s5Sm4
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elBvJJtDMNc

    These will stop any bs (including a hit stun bs if you're really quick) unless you're outright stuck in a recovery animation (not a stun) or stealth attacked, in which case you don't deserve an escape because you seriously screwed up.

    I see no need for more counters when there are already so many.

    I'm not trying to remove the tail in suggesting a smaller hitbox, I'm suggesting a smaller hitbox because sidestabs make punishing many techniques easy, so the bs is the "go to" punish for 2/3rds of the things in game and because (from an irl view) having ones shoulder doesn't allign one for a critical strike, as the attack can be seen and reponded to, that it would cut down on telestabs is just a bonus.

    I never got that in Des. I wasn't saying your point on canceling wasn't valid, just that perception plays a big part and (imo) vaccume stabs feel cheaper by ripping me out of a safe


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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Forum Pirate on Thu Jan 31, 2013 4:47 am

    zone instead of being tagged while feeling like the zone was never safe in the first place.


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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Sentiel on Thu Jan 31, 2013 5:50 am

    Forum Pirate wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECtUrIejWV0
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhP2q4s5Sm4
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elBvJJtDMNc

    These will stop any bs (including a hit stun bs if you're really quick) unless you're outright stuck in a recovery animation (not a stun) or stealth attacked, in which case you don't deserve an escape because you seriously screwed up.

    I see no need for more counters when there are already so many.

    I'm not trying to remove the tail in suggesting a smaller hitbox, I'm suggesting a smaller hitbox because sidestabs make punishing many techniques easy, so the bs is the "go to" punish for 2/3rds of the things in game and because (from an irl view) having ones shoulder doesn't allign one for a critical strike, as the attack can be seen and reponded to, that it would cut down on telestabs is just a bonus.

    I never got that in Des. I wasn't saying your point on canceling wasn't valid, just that perception plays a big part and (imo) vaccume stabs feel cheaper by ripping me out of a safe
    Very good and informative videos. Here's a +1 for posting them. winking

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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Oh_the_Humanity on Thu Jan 31, 2013 2:46 pm

    Forum Pirate wrote:
    I see no need for more counters when there are already so many.

    ???
    Um, more counters?
    There's just counters.
    You can counter any weapon because it's just a timed attack.
    Being able to counter a BS would IMO be very rewarding when pulled off.
    I think that the hold (X) then L2 control like I suggested before could work really well as long as it takes the kind of precision a riposte takes. Lag in this case would almost help keep everyone from doing them on every BS.

    The hand on the shoulder part of the "breakout" is to account for the locking in place part of the animation and to allow for the breakout itself. Also, it would be fluid, not hand on shoulder, wait a sec, BS. It would look almost identical to the current BS.
    Once your left hand touches your opponents shoulder your right hand will already be extended back for the BS.
    The controls could be similar to the BS riposte. It could be, hold(B) then L2 with the same timing as the riposte. Maybe there could be something codded into the game that if anyone tries spamming L2 while holding x or o, it then cancels it out.

    I also think different types of animations for the BS could be great for different kind of attacks. Like a fast BS that does less damage but easier to pull off, a regular BS and a slow more powerful one that you would almost always get countered, parried or whatever it ends up being, unless your distracted or some reason that deserves a powerful BS. This is just a thought to add more variation to combat, has nothing to do with fixing lag or anything.
    In fact I think I'm going to start a new thread talking about new idea for combat in DkS2.

    I'm pretty burnt out on this thread, I think we all agree, just in different ways.
    I think we all love the BS and don't want it to go anywhere.
    I think we all hate what lag does to the BS and wish there was something to remedy it.
    I think we all realize that you cant just fix lag nor should you design anything to work with it.
    I think we all agree that a smaller hitbox is one of the more logical thing that could possibly help.
    I think we all agree that lag isn't going anywhere and no matter what you change or add it will still be there.

    So what the conclusion?
    Well, there isn't unfortunately.
    We need to keep on brainstorming and coming up with ideas.
    Good or bad it doesn't matter.
    Bad ideas can be good.
    Knowing what wont work helps us think of what will.
    Hopefully we've got people at From checkin' this forum out to get ideas, I'm sure someone over there does.
    We know they listen to the community. So they know about the lag issue. That's why there changing it from P2P to server based. Hopefully that alone will do something to help.
    But it definitely wont fix it entirely.




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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Samurainova on Mon Feb 04, 2013 5:49 pm

    Man so much controversy on backstabs. Can't well juust accept it for what is? Let us holds hands and embrace this sacred art into our hearts. ^^

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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by The Letter X on Mon Feb 04, 2013 8:35 pm

    Samurainova wrote:Man so much controversy on backstabs. Can't well juust accept it for what is? Let us holds hands and embrace this sacred art into our hearts. ^^

    Exactly. I don't backstab, but I accept it for what it is when someone does it to me. It's a part of the game that can exploit lag moreso than others, but it's the way the game is.


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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Hugh_G_Johnson on Tue Feb 05, 2013 7:51 pm

    My idea is to make back-stabbing only possible as a direct punishment. Make it like the riposte window* after a parry, but the back-stab would be a counter to missing with large weapons, healing, buffing and throwing. Make it possible to BS only when during and immediately following one of those events. I suggested this in this thread for changes to DkSII online. I honestly don't feel there isn't any other legitimate occasion for a BS. This includes rolling, at the very least locked rolling because the entire point of locking on is to orient yourself towards your target. Getting BS'ed while locked on without doing anything is a farce, imo. Yes, even if you set the controller down you should never get BS'ed while locked -- killed, sure... never BS'ed, though. Locked-on is by definition facing your opponent. Perhaps BSing could be possible whenever unlocked... I don't know and I don't care, honestly as long as you can't get BS'ed while locked unless you do something to leave yourself open.

    *I refer to a window of time; I think the hit box is fine -- it just looks horrendous sometimes due to lag.


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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by The Letter X on Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:23 pm

    Hugh_G_Johnson wrote:My idea is to make back-stabbing only possible as a direct punishment. Make it like the riposte window* after a parry, but the back-stab would be a counter to missing with large weapons, healing, buffing and throwing. Make it possible to BS only when during and immediately following one of those events. I suggested this in this thread for changes to DkSII online. I honestly don't feel there isn't any other legitimate occasion for a BS. This includes rolling, at the very least locked rolling because the entire point of locking on is to orient yourself towards your target. Getting BS'ed while locked on without doing anything is a farce, imo. Yes, even if you set the controller down you should never get BS'ed while locked -- killed, sure... never BS'ed, though. Locked-on is by definition facing your opponent. Perhaps BSing could be possible whenever unlocked... I don't know and I don't care, honestly as long as you can't get BS'ed while locked unless you do something to leave yourself open.

    *I refer to a window of time; I think the hit box is fine -- it just looks horrendous sometimes due to lag.

    This is the exact way I want it and I've suggested it before. People still don't like it.


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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Marino. on Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:28 pm

    This would make Mages even more Powerfull than they already are .

    But anyway the Souls games are Multiplayer Games thus there will always be whining and complaining about things being OP .

    I would just reduce the Damage .
    Sure that would not prevent Lagstabs and the like but those arent that huge of a deal anyway when you consider that everything is effected by lag .
    Phantom hits, the Infamous invicible Pursuers yadayadayada we all know about that .

    Removing Backstabs won't change anything if the core problems still there . Lag .
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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Oh_the_Humanity on Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:00 pm

    The Letter X wrote:
    Hugh_G_Johnson wrote:My idea is to make back-stabbing only possible as a direct punishment. Make it like the riposte window* after a parry, but the back-stab would be a counter to missing with large weapons, healing, buffing and throwing. Make it possible to BS only when during and immediately following one of those events. I suggested this in this thread for changes to DkSII online. I honestly don't feel there isn't any other legitimate occasion for a BS. This includes rolling, at the very least locked rolling because the entire point of locking on is to orient yourself towards your target. Getting BS'ed while locked on without doing anything is a farce, imo. Yes, even if you set the controller down you should never get BS'ed while locked -- killed, sure... never BS'ed, though. Locked-on is by definition facing your opponent. Perhaps BSing could be possible whenever unlocked... I don't know and I don't care, honestly as long as you can't get BS'ed while locked unless you do something to leave yourself open.

    *I refer to a window of time; I think the hit box is fine -- it just looks horrendous sometimes due to lag.

    This is the exact way I want it and I've suggested it before. People still don't like it.

    I concur with this, and thats all I have to say about the BS ever again.


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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Animaaal on Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:28 pm

    Oh_the_Humanity wrote:...
    I concur with this, and thats all I have to say about the BS ever again....

    I doubt it lol. I think we're just getting started.... Coffee!
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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Forum Pirate on Wed Feb 06, 2013 6:25 am

    I refuse to engage.


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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Oh_the_Humanity on Wed Feb 06, 2013 11:37 am

    Animaaal wrote:
    Oh_the_Humanity wrote:...
    I concur with this, and thats all I have to say about the BS ever again....

    I doubt it lol. I think we're just getting started.... Coffee!
    :silent:


    Forum Pirate wrote:I refuse to engage.

    lol!


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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Samurainova on Fri Feb 08, 2013 2:43 pm

    Funny how that works happy


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