Dark Souls Without Backstabs

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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by reim0027 on Sun Jan 27, 2013 4:00 pm

    Forum Pirate wrote:I actually just posted the only proposed solution I would go for in the other thread, otherwise I would leave as is (mayne cut the hitbox by about 1/3rd)
    This is what I say too. Really high damage moves should have downsides such as recovery time afterwards (like with strength weapons) or difficult to do (like parries). This should be proportional to the high damage. And, IMO, the damage:ease of use is off balance for BS.

    Keep the damage the same and increase the difficulty to pull off (smaller hitbox) and you've got a much better balance.


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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Forum Pirate on Sun Jan 27, 2013 7:55 pm

    removing bsing would completely wreck melee stealth as well (which actually needs a boost, as its incredibly difficult as is) once again hamstringing an entire playstyle by trying to balance around lag


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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by ComaPrison on Sun Jan 27, 2013 8:29 pm

    dark souls would be better without backstabs. and dark souls isn't meant to be a stealth game. go play dishonored you dirty traitor


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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Oh_the_Humanity on Sun Jan 27, 2013 10:23 pm

    ComaPrison wrote:dark souls would be better without backstabs. and dark souls isn't meant to be a stealth game. go play dishonored you dirty traitor

    I have to agree here.
    Unless something is done to remedy the current backstab,
    then IMO it should be removed.
    Simple as that.
    What to do to fix it, is not so simple unfortunately.


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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Samurainova on Sun Jan 27, 2013 10:48 pm

    Its amazing how many opinions people have on back stabs.

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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Forum Pirate on Sun Jan 27, 2013 11:29 pm

    Oh_the_Humanity wrote:
    ComaPrison wrote:dark souls would be better without backstabs. and dark souls isn't meant to be a stealth game. go play dishonored you dirty traitor

    I have to agree here.
    Unless something is done to remedy the current backstab,
    then IMO it should be removed.
    Simple as that.
    What to do to fix it, is not so simple unfortunately.
    He's probably trolling. I'd guess he actually agrees with me. He's like that.

    DKS isn't a stealth game, but it is a game intended to include stealth (as made obvious by the ring of fog, chamilion, sulumbering dragon ring, the high crit damage of daggers, arguably hidden weapon helps the case.) Removing stealth from dks would be paramount to removing stealth from Skyrim. WTF is the point of an rpg like dks when such roll playing elements like stealth are removed?


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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Animaaal on Tue Jan 29, 2013 3:18 am

    reim0027 wrote:...Keep the damage the same and increase the difficulty to pull off (smaller hitbox) and you've got a much better balance...

    This is what scares me.

    I remember when Dark Souls came out and the "pros" and "mods" went back and forth and back and forth about backstabs being easier or harder as compared to Demon's Souls.

    Some would say, "They only seem easier because of poise." or "Having this crappy p2p makes them worse." I noticed right away that sidestabs seemed gone, but quickly realized that the roll bs immunity was gone. Fact is there was an adjustment.

    Next was the patch verifying (one before last, someone correct me if im wrong please) that acknowledged another change.

    Now its make em smaller again. I thought they could use a tweak before, but didn't think it was necessary then either.

    The real issue is the tele stab. Rolling should always be successful. Whether it looks that way on their screen or not.

    This is the only real reason people have problems with backstabs imo. Its not because of that dude that punished you and made you enjoy it. No, its the "subjective appearence" (its not their opinion they are getting pulled into a bs out of their roll) of the backstabee.

    A smaller hitbox could reduce the occurences of this "phenomena", but also add difficulty to the rest of the backstabs, which I think is a bad idea. They seem fine now. Aren't we all saying they can be avoided now just fine? Yes, because they can.

    i believe if they got rid of the "magic bs tail", you wouldn't see as many people who are new to the series, voicing their concerns as often.

    Reworking the code over and over when its not really the problem is what seems counter-productive to me. Developing a new mechanic or feature would seem much more logical imo. My favorite idea is the "breakout". Ooooooooooooooooooooo and introducing a "riptose fatality" !!!! yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa twisted
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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Forum Pirate on Tue Jan 29, 2013 4:08 am

    Except I actually think the hitbox is to big. Using bsing as a punish wouldn't change with a smaller hitbox, it would simply require a little more precise timing than as is. Instead of a "sidestab" where I'm half a millimeter past my opponents shoulder I actually have to have my opponents back (instead of their shoulder) to land a backstab.

    I'm telling you there isn't a feasible way to stop the vaccum stab. Even my least laggy fights get them. All that can be feasibly done is minimising it by reducing lag. Even halo reach, with its meticulous and consistent rebalancing, dedicated servers, and the option to only play with local people with good internet, has instances where a fatal blow I dealt misses on their screen but kills them anyways. This is especially noticeable with longer range sniper kills. The reason being I saw it hit, the game did the math and saw that it hit, but it takes a second to communicate that with the hit players system. Its minimised as best they can manage but it still happens.


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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Forum Pirate on Tue Jan 29, 2013 4:13 am

    If the hit detection is based on what the person being hit see's, then every hit will seem fair to them, but suddenly everybody is complaining about people sight parrying everything and phasing through attacks. People are just as upset, and one has simply created a new mess, rather than cleaning the old one. The 2 stage bs would still have vaccum stabs, and they'd seem even less fair because you were supposed to have a chance to escape that lag denied you.


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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Animaaal on Tue Jan 29, 2013 4:42 am

    I know there's no way to stop tele stabs. I never said there was. I have proposed an idea:

    Adding a clock to backstabs

    I think the biggest problem with this idea would be the application, not turtles (exclude roll bs delay for the sake of this conversation). It would take 2 or even 3 patches to get it right imo. It would also have varying effectiveness from region to region.

    I also know the relevance of efficient data tranfer pertaining to lag.

    And I disagree, backstabs (with this exception) are fine now. Nothing needs changed. Backstabs should not simply be reduced to a "punish only" move. There are plenty of other high damage dealing techniques outside of backstabs. It should retain its offensiveness.

    I also never said implementing a breakout move would fix tele stabs either. It seems like a better way to deal with the problem, as opposed to, making an adjustment to a mechanic that has a problem that is out of its control***edit*** outside of our control. A smaller hitox would make lock off backstabs harder. As it stands now lock off backstabs and superb camera management are one of the only true ways to tilt the odds in your favor in some of the most unappealing situations. Take that away, or make it any more difficult than it is now, and you are making the problem worse.

    Also, my "immunity clock" idea wouldn't get rid of telestabs altogether either.

    And actually I think the "half a millimeter" is a bit of an exageration. We all know they are pretty tight in pve and reduced lag pvp environments.
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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Forum Pirate on Tue Jan 29, 2013 5:16 am

    They are a punish only move now. Punishing failure to spot me and/or failure to space properly (poise stab) and/or failure to account for my actions (roll stab, piviot stab, counter stab) That doesn't mean they can't be used offensively. Stealth and pressuring an opponent into making a mistake and punishing the mistake you worked to make happen are quite capable of being offensive techniques, where the roll bs is either offensive (to punish healing/items) or counter offensive (to punish attacks.)

    I'm also not suggesting it because of lag, I'm suggesting it because it would encourage percision in bs attempts rather than fairly sloppy roll or piviot stabs that are tremendously frequent in dks combat. If would make dealing with ganks somewhat harder, it would also make ganking somewhat harder (as the increased difficulty in bsing works both ways) and it would in no way invalidate lock off piviot bsing as a viable tactic in gank situations (or any situation really) just make it slightly tougher.


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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Forum Pirate on Tue Jan 29, 2013 5:28 am

    You're fighting 3 people at once. Its going to be a bastard.

    That is also balancing a mechanic around something unrelated to it. Address the problem. The problem (if you believe it to be one) is ganks and that should be addressed if from has a problem with it. (ie only being allowed one phantom)

    As for the clock, its not a good idea, especially when considering the importance of roll bsing in countering turtles, casters and ug weapon users, who tend to be highly resistant to frontal assaults and capable of way more damage per hit than everybody else. Roll poking does it to but having multiple counters is important to prevent centeralising gameplay. (it would also make ganks much more difficult to overcome btw, because now one cant roll bs the casters or turtles and everybody else can just constantly tap L1 when not attacking to be immune to a surprise backstab, so my suggestion would increase the difficulty of ganks by less than yours)


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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Sentiel on Tue Jan 29, 2013 5:41 am

    I think that the hate towards backstabs originates from ninja flippin' Giant's Housewifes, who ohko almost anyone with BKGA.

    I'm sure it was suggested before, but why not reduce the Critical on Str weapons?

    They all have 100 (is there even one weapon with less than 100?).
    If it got lowered, perhaps based on their AR (higher AR = lower Crit), to some 80, or so, they couldn't ohko anymore, unless further buffed.

    I always thought that Dex weapons are where the Crits and Aux should be (you know, Thief/Rogue classes etc), and Str should have big damage, stunlock and huge Stamina damage on block, so you can't turtle them with medium shield.

    Lot of players have fast rolling Str builds and can do more Crit damage than Dex weapons, even those made to do high Crit damage. I think that the bane of backstabs lies in these players, so if Str weapons got their Crits nerfed, it could possibly help. When you see someone with a high Crit Dex weapon, you know there's high chance that they will want to bs you, but these weapons are weak by themselves, but then you got a Str weapon which does the same Crit damage, or more, however it also has high damage and can stunlock you, so you have to watch out for more dangers than just bs.

    Thoughts?

    EDIT:
    I have to learn to properly relay my thoughts and intentions into words... sad

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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Forum Pirate on Tue Jan 29, 2013 6:30 am

    Except if I cri with a dagger I aim to put it into your kidneys or spine and you might die (if I'm accurate,) if I crit with demon great hammer I turn your entire upper body into pulp and you defintely die.

    Heavy weapon=more weight=more difficulty fast rolling with poise=more difficulty bsing. For that, decreasing the availability of poise (while maintaining a fast roll) would do the trick. Then if heavy weapons want to bs fish, they don't get any poise or defense, making them borderline useless if they're not bsing due to the slow speed of their easily interrupted swings.


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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Sentiel on Tue Jan 29, 2013 6:58 am

    Forum Pirate wrote:Except if I cri with a dagger I aim to put it into your kidneys or spine and you might die (if I'm accurate,) if I crit with demon great hammer I turn your entire upper body into pulp and you defintely die.

    Heavy weapon=more weight=more difficulty fast rolling with poise=more difficulty bsing. For that, decreasing the availability of poise (while maintaining a fast roll) would do the trick. Then if heavy weapons want to bs fish, they don't get any poise or defense, making them borderline useless if they're not bsing due to the slow speed of their easily interrupted swings.
    Yes, that would also work. I think it was the point of nerfing DWGR.

    But you still see a lot of fast rolling Zwei and Great Club users.
    First has stunlock and pathetic DA and the second has it's strange roll R1 and both can maintain fast roll while having some decent Poise.

    Fast roll, 53+ Poise, Hornet is no problem.
    http://mmdks.com/xod
    And I wasn't even trying, so it will have a lot of errors in it (I suck with Str builds tbh).
    Just to show what I meant in the previous post.

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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Forum Pirate on Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:17 am

    I'm aware that it can be done. That it can be done is the issue, not heavy weapon bs damage. Toss the wolf ring and its http://mmdks.com/xog

    Toss havels ring and its http://mmdks.com/xoh

    See? Its the wolf ring thats the issue there, otherwise it quickly becomes irrational to invest that many end points so bs fish with a heavy weapon.


    Last edited by Forum Pirate on Tue Jan 29, 2013 8:12 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Spelling Fail)


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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Sentiel on Tue Jan 29, 2013 8:07 am

    So, people could still create fast rolling str bs fishers with Hornet, but they would have to sacrifice a lot of points to get that.

    Sounds good to me.

    How to do that?
    Remove/nerf Wolf Ring?

    Nothing against Wolf Ring, I use it myself. silly

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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Forum Pirate on Tue Jan 29, 2013 8:14 am

    Yes, I would shoot it in the face. Repeatedly. They would need to do DNA testing to identify the body.


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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Sentiel on Tue Jan 29, 2013 8:29 am

    Forum Pirate wrote:Yes, I would shoot it in the face. Repeatedly. They would need to do DNA testing to identify the body.
    Somebody has a hate on Dex guys with 53 Poise huh? lol!

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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Forum Pirate on Tue Jan 29, 2013 8:51 am

    Not 53, 76.

    Like this http://mmdks.com/xpd

    Not only do these people out speed me and out range me, but they have just as much defense and comparable damage, and I can't even stun them to make up for it.


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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Sentiel on Tue Jan 29, 2013 9:07 am

    I know what you mean. :cry:

    I meet a lot of this version of the same thing.
    http://mmdks.com/xpl

    Even more annoying to deal with and they love to switch Wolf for Hornet, DWGR or Bellowing when they get low on HP (still have 54 Poise without Wolf).

    I see something like this, sometimes with DB instead of GC a lot in Burg. I mostly die to them while trying to parry their DA GS :dung: .


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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by The Letter X on Tue Jan 29, 2013 9:11 am

    Sentiel wrote:I know what you mean. :cry:

    I meet a lot of this version of the same thing.
    http://mmdks.com/xpl

    Even more annoying to deal with and they love to switch Wolf for Hornet, DWGR or Bellowing when they get low on HP (still have 54 Poise without Wolf).

    I see something like this, sometimes with DB instead of GC a lot in Burg. I mostly die to them while trying to parry their DA GS :dung: .


    That's not even a build. That's a monstrosity.


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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Sentiel on Tue Jan 29, 2013 9:15 am

    The Letter X wrote:
    Sentiel wrote:I know what you mean. :cry:

    I meet a lot of this version of the same thing.
    http://mmdks.com/xpl

    Even more annoying to deal with and they love to switch Wolf for Hornet, DWGR or Bellowing when they get low on HP (still have 54 Poise without Wolf).

    I see something like this, sometimes with DB instead of GC a lot in Burg. I mostly die to them while trying to parry their DA GS :dung: .


    That's not even a build. That's a monstrosity.
    I'm forced to fight this almost on daily basis.
    Don't tell me you've never met one of these?

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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by The Letter X on Tue Jan 29, 2013 9:18 am

    Sentiel wrote:
    The Letter X wrote:
    Sentiel wrote:I know what you mean. :cry:

    I meet a lot of this version of the same thing.
    http://mmdks.com/xpl

    Even more annoying to deal with and they love to switch Wolf for Hornet, DWGR or Bellowing when they get low on HP (still have 54 Poise without Wolf).

    I see something like this, sometimes with DB instead of GC a lot in Burg. I mostly die to them while trying to parry their DA GS :dung: .


    That's not even a build. That's a monstrosity.
    I'm forced to fight this almost on daily basis.
    Don't tell me you've never met one of these?

    Last time was in the arena, so not in 2-3 months. I fought one in the Burg just before the DLC hit, only they were spamming the BSS's R2's and rolling R1's. That was the only time I ever felt hopeless in a fight.


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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Sentiel on Tue Jan 29, 2013 9:25 am

    The Letter X wrote:Last time was in the arena, so not in 2-3 months. I fought one in the Burg just before the DLC hit, only they were spamming the BSS's R2's and rolling R1's. That was the only time I ever felt hopeless in a fight.
    I spend most of my PvP time in Burg.
    The area is good and gives me an advantage against spell spammers as it is too small for them to keep distance and running away.
    Any cheapness is hard to execute there.

    I meet those "things" daily. I never summon them, but they usually invade me.

    Some people can't start their day without a cup of coffee. I can't start my day without playing a game, so I go Burg PvP for 30 mins, or so in 07:00-08:00 AM GMT/UTC +1 and that's the when there's the most of them.

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