Dark Souls Without Backstabs

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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Animaaal on Sat Jan 26, 2013 10:21 am

    Forum Pirate wrote:...I said "unless youre stuck in an animation." I also said "virtually,"...

    I apologize, but I reread a couple pages of posting to make sure I didn’t misquote you, and I don’t see this anywhere. If I missed it then I'm sorry. If you are paraphrasing then fine, if I misquoted or misrepresented something you said I apologize.
    ***edit***
    I see your "locking in place" statement in a previous post

    However, yes I understand the concept of “being stuck” in the animation.

    Forum Pirate wrote:...Besides that, from a real life perspective, its not "i have your shoulder, youre screwed" its " I have your back, youre screwed" if youre within reach of the opposite arm, they can still fight to get into a decent position. You don't have time to use a backstab type move because they have time to escape...

    I try not to apply too much of this logic to a fantasy game. Not applying any is foolish though I'll admit.


    Forum Pirate wrote:...As for servers not helping, thats just not true. It won't always help, but help it will, especially with longer distances as the signals don't have to travel as far. I also didn't say anything about region. There are games with servers that allow the player to choose the server they want to play on...

    LAN stands for local area network, which I'm sure you know, but it was the reason I used the word "regionalizing". I don't believe I said you said anything about it, I did. I was using regionalizing as a synonym. And again, I think we all know the importance of dedicated servers regarding the reduction of lag in online games. And again, this is not an option for Dark Souls so the relevance of it pertaining to this discussion is unnecessary.

    Forum Pirate wrote:...Ok fine, if the hit detection was based on what you saw, rather than what your opponent saw or a server based system, there would be no tele stabs. Also, nobody would ever make contact unless it was a sight parry....

    True. Very true. But that implies instant timeless detections. An impossibility.

    Dedicated servers will not eliminate lag and therefore not eliminate tele-stabs, and yes there would still be lag-parries. Albeit not as bad as they are now. I’ve never said dedicated servers will not help at all in any post I’ve ever made here, or anywhere for that matter. But there was lag in Demon's Souls and there will be in Dark Souls 2, IF it comes out for the ps3. No lag ps4 possibilities are only spectulation for the time being.

    In conclusion, Dark Souls without backstabs wouldn't "feel" right. However, they don't "feel" right now either. I'm fine with them the way they are, I will still play and not blame the game for my mistakes, but do i think there is a way to improve them with the current p2p system?...probably.

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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Animaaal on Sat Jan 26, 2013 10:55 am

    I don't mean to double post, but I would like to say this one more time seeing as how things got a little off topic.

    Animaaal wrote:

    Forum Pirate wrote:...There has to be an animation so its actually functional as a punish...

    This exactly. Backstabs are necessary. I persoanlly, (and this is at you Oh_the_Humanity and anyone else who's thought of this idea) think the "counter-backstab" would be effin awesome!

    Can you imagine?!?! I'd be jumping out of my seat if I just elbowed a ganker in the face, or kneed em in the groin, or broke thier wrist for trying to back stab muwaaaa I say!!! cheers

    I would give FROM a bazillion interweb points if it was done right. ❤ It would have to be difficult to pull off, but managable. I would say at "pro status", it should have no greater than a 30% success rate...maybe 40% idk.

    I think there should be a "clock" if you will. I've mentioned an idea before about a tapping and/or holding block gives you a 1/4-1/2 second immunity against backstabs, NOT unlimited immunity.

    If done right, it could disrupt the ease of pulling off a backstab, and make rolling a viable way to create space. I don't think you should have to worry about getting backstabbed when rolling. Rolling immunity should apply to backstabs, and in-game, it certainly doesn't feel that way.

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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Carphil on Sat Jan 26, 2013 11:01 am

    Backstab is perfect, don't need to remove it.


    There are two kinds of people in the world, those with loaded guns, and those who backstab Shrug


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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Animaaal on Sat Jan 26, 2013 11:07 am

    Carphil wrote:Backstab is perfect, don't need to remove it.


    There are two kinds of people in the world, those with loaded guns, and those who backstab Shrug

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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Oh_the_Humanity on Sat Jan 26, 2013 2:14 pm

    Well, This will probably be my last post on this subject.
    I fell I keep going around in circles.
    Ultimately the backstab itself is a great mechanic that makes sense and works perfectly, until your online.
    IMO as long as there is lag, ANY attack that locks the player in place will cause teleporting and problems in PvP.
    I don't see any way around this, that's why I suggested a 2 part move to allow for the opportunity to escape from the backstab. Although, that isn't going to fix it either. It may help, it may not. Hell, it may make it worse, I'm not sure but I do think that it could work if re-worked and changed up a bit.
    But to answer the OP. I think Dark Souls w/o backstabs would be better than them not fixing it and keeping it the same.
    So if it stays the same, I don't want it in the next game, (its just annoying and immersion breaking.)
    But if they change it up and "fix" the tele-problem, than I'm all for it, because I really like the idea of punishing your opponent for leaving there back open. I just cant stand it when people focus there whole fighting style around the backstab. Not having it at all would at least force those players to actually fight instead of chasing the player around and around.


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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Animaaal on Sat Jan 26, 2013 2:23 pm

    Oh_the_Humanity wrote: Well, This will probably be my last post on this subject.
    I fell I keep going around in circles.
    Ultimately the backstab itself is a great mechanic that makes sense and works perfectly, until your online.
    IMO as long as there is lag, ANY attack that locks the player in place will cause teleporting and problems in PvP.
    I don't see any way around this, that's why I suggested a 2 part move to allow for the opportunity to escape from the backstab. Although, that isn't going to fix it either. It may help, it may not. Hell, it may make it worse, I'm not sure but I do think that it could work if re-worked and changed up a bit.
    But to answer the OP. I think Dark Souls w/o backstabs would be better than them not fixing it and keeping it the same.
    So if it stays the same, I don't want it in the next game, (its just annoying and immersion breaking.)
    But if they change it up and "fix" the tele-problem, than I'm all for it, because I really like the idea of punishing your opponent for leaving there back open. I just cant stand it when people focus there whole fighting style around the backstab. Not having it at all would at least force those players to actually fight instead of chasing the player around and around.

    No way dude! If they had the manpower and time to implement a "breakout" move that was very difficult to pull off (but doable), it would change everything.

    Sure, it may not actually fix tele-stabs, but it would open all kinds of new possibilities and add an extreme amount of depth to an already deep combat system.

    I would love having a little more freedom, instead of....move this angle, roll this angle, don't cast now, etcetcetc.

    I think its a great idea, always have. Don't be so hard on yourself.



    Last edited by Animaaal on Sat Jan 26, 2013 2:27 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Editted humanity's partial quote to full quote)
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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Forum Pirate on Sat Jan 26, 2013 2:41 pm

    Oh_the_Humanity wrote: I just cant stand it when people focus there whole fighting style around the backstab.
    but it is a valid tactic in 3d combat. I do jujitsu, thats what a large portion of our bouts are about. As the principles of combat apply in both situations, its only natural that it works

    Oh_the_Humanity wrote:IMO as long as there is lag, ANY attack that locks the player in place will cause teleporting and problems in PvP
    so kicks and stuns of any kind should be removed from pvp? Parries should go? because they all do it. Thats what you're suggesting. Every attack will lock the player in place until the stun animation ends (its just cinematic with crits), and I dare you to find me a half decent fighting game without stuns.

    I've already explained the necessity of a special animation, and you even agreed.

    Your logic boils down to "lag makes it better and it can be used effectively as someones sole tactic so it should be nerfed/removed."


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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Forum Pirate on Sat Jan 26, 2013 2:48 pm

    News flash: EVERY attack can be effectively used as someones sole tactic and lag makes it all better. Many, many things can kill in just 1 or 2 hits, same as a bs can as well, so its effectiveness isn't a valid reason either.

    "it looks wrong" is a fualty argument as well, it looks wrong that anybody can roll at all while wearing armor of stone. It looks wrong that anyone can even lift the dga. It looks wrong that there's a hud. It looks wrong that I can see my stats.

    I could go on, but I think you see my point.


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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Oh_the_Humanity on Sat Jan 26, 2013 2:56 pm

    [quote="Forum Pirate"]
    Oh_the_Humanity wrote:
    Your logic boils down to "lag makes it better and it can be used effectively as someones sole tactic so it should be nerfed/removed."

    I just hate to see people getting chained BS'd and tele-stabbed of even pahtom stabbed in such a realistic immersive combat system. I go from being completly engrossed in the moment to being sucked back to reality because I have to watch myself get "punished" when I clearly shouldn't have, but to the person BS'ing me it looked perfectly legit.
    This doesn't happen 100% of the time of course, but it does happen often enough to be a big deal. Big enough to be addressed in the next game.
    I have a very positive view of Dark Souls 2's future.
    I didn't at first, but after reading some interviews and knowing that Miyazaki will be overseeing the game to make sure it doesn't stray to far from what we all have come to know and love.
    I think they will make sure the backstab is addressed in some way. Weather it's "fixed" of not, I can't say for sure of course, but I know they listen to the community and take some of what we say seriously. The backstab has been an ongoing issue in forums for awhile now. People have been complaining and thinking of ways to improve or fix it since the games release. So I think it may be safe to assume that it will get some attention in Dark Souls 2.
    Will have to wait and see.


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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Animaaal on Sat Jan 26, 2013 2:58 pm

    Forum Pirate wrote:but it is a valid tactic in 3d combat. I do jujitsu, thats what a large portion of our bouts are about. As the principles of combat apply in both situations, its only natural that it works
    Understanding real life combat has nothing to do with what is balanced and imbalanced in Dark Souls.
    Forum Pirate wrote:Your logic boils down to "lag makes it better and it can be used effectively as someones sole tactic so it should be nerfed/removed."

    I dont assume he's saying that at all. I dont think anyone who says they'd like to see backstabs fixed somehow is saying that at all either.
    Forum Pirate wrote:News flash: EVERY attack can be effectively used as someones sole tactic and lag makes it all better. Many, many things can kill in just 1 or 2 hits, same as a bs can as well, so its effectiveness isn't a valid reason either.

    "it looks wrong" is a fualty argument as well, it looks wrong that anybody can roll at all while wearing armor of stone. It looks wrong that anyone can even lift the dga. It looks wrong that there's a hud. It looks wrong that I can see my stats.

    I could go on, but I think you see my point.
    Newsflash: You compare real life jujitsu techniques to Dark Souls, then turn around and say, "it looks wrong is a faulty argument". I apologize, but that is contradicting.

    They could use a makeover, you've said that yourself.
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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Oh_the_Humanity on Sat Jan 26, 2013 3:02 pm

    I think we can ALL agree that we like the BS and want it to stay.
    But we hate what lag does to it and agree that something should be done to improve it.

    Can we all agree on this?


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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Animaaal on Sat Jan 26, 2013 3:03 pm

    Oh_the_Humanity wrote:I think we can ALL agree that we like the BS and want it to stay.
    But we hate what lag does to it and agree that something should be done to improve it.

    Can we all agree on this?

    I'll second that.
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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Forum Pirate on Sat Jan 26, 2013 9:55 pm

    One is "appearance of fualt" and the other is "principles of combat" (ie spacing, managing fatigue, punishing openings ect) and the principles of combat apply in game and irl, where appearance is subjective and so not a valid reason to change a mechanic.

    That may not be what he said in a literal sense, but following his logic to its conclusion that is the end result.

    He wasn't refering to balance with "I just cant stand it when people focus there whole fighting style around the backstab" he was refering to preference, probably based on perception, both of which are fualty ways of dealing with game mechanics. As such my argument was based on objective combat principles as a justification for the mechanics and people who rely on them, rather than my perception of the mechanics or those who rely on them.

    I would like to see telestabs gone too, but thats a counterproductive goal. less lag will help (so should be a focus) but lag free online play is impossible (even light only moves so fast)


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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Peaceful Wollyhop on Sat Jan 26, 2013 10:21 pm

    1)Reduce backstab hitbox size
    and/or
    2) Implement ring which reduces % of damage taken from backstabs and ripostes


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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by DianaDieHard on Sat Jan 26, 2013 11:08 pm

    The hitboxes are rather large. But i find them larger online that off.
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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Oh_the_Humanity on Sat Jan 26, 2013 11:56 pm

    Forum Pirate wrote: (even light only moves so fast)

    Ummm?...what?? any faster and your going forward in time.


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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Forum Pirate on Sun Jan 27, 2013 1:10 am

    You're always going forward in time.

    Lag free combat is impossible because the systems still have to comunicate. Even if the signal is traveling at light speed, it still takes time for the signal to cross the distance and for the system to interpret the signal. Lag is entirely inescapable so trying to change things because lag can screw with them is futile and counterproductive.


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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Samurainova on Sun Jan 27, 2013 1:39 am

    Basicly you are going forward in time if i am correct.


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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Animaaal on Sun Jan 27, 2013 2:57 am

    Forum Pirate wrote:One is "appearance of fualt" and the other is "principles of combat" (ie spacing, managing fatigue, punishing openings ect) and the principles of combat apply in game and irl, where appearance is subjective and so not a valid reason to change a mechanic.

    That may not be what he said in a literal sense, but following his logic to its conclusion that is the end result.

    He wasn't refering to balance with "I just cant stand it when people focus there whole fighting style around the backstab" he was refering to preference, probably based on perception, both of which are fualty ways of dealing with game mechanics. As such my argument was based on objective combat principles as a justification for the mechanics and people who rely on them, rather than my perception of the mechanics or those who rely on them.

    I would like to see telestabs gone too, but thats a counterproductive goal. less lag will help (so should be a focus) but lag free online play is impossible (even light only moves so fast)

    I think subjective appearance is a great reason to alter/change/influence/effect a mechanic. Especially this one. It is almost the entire reason for a statement like this:

    DianaDieHard wrote:The hitboxes are rather large. But i find them larger online that off.

    They do not shrink, nor do they expand, or vary at all from the size they are programmed to be. It just seems that way. It is perfectly logical to make this statement. Which, imo, is an excellent reason to change a mechanic…IF possible.

    Forum Pirate wrote:You're always going forward in time.

    Lag free combat is impossible because the systems still have to comunicate. Even if the signal is traveling at light speed, it still takes time for the signal to cross the distance and for the system to interpret the signal. Lag is entirely inescapable so trying to change things because lag can screw with them is futile and counterproductive.

    Yes, yes, and no? “Screwing” with them could be stupid ya, but enhancing them certainly might not be.

    I'll ask this question here too. If we consider the possibility of a patch for Dark Souls, or an adjustment to said backstab mechanic in Dark Souls 2...what would it be?!?!?

    Do we really think there is no chance at all of FROM patching Dark Souls? Not even for beta purposes?<---think about this one people.

    Anyway if dreams were to come true and they said we'll finally make a change you superawesome fans, and the change is: "No more backstabs"...I don't know how I'd feel quite frankly. :affraid: or maybe :blue-orb: :blue-orb: from the let down?!?!? idk

    I'd only agree with an idea if it was progressive, period. I think Dark Souls with no backstabs at all, is just not a souls game man.
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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Forum Pirate on Sun Jan 27, 2013 3:09 am

    I actually just posted the only proposed solution I would go for in the other thread, otherwise I would leave as is (mayne cut the hitbox by about 1/3rd)


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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Oh_the_Humanity on Sun Jan 27, 2013 5:20 am

    Forum Pirate wrote:You're always going forward in time.

    Lag free combat is impossible because the systems still have to comunicate. Even if the signal is traveling at light speed, it still takes time for the signal to cross the distance and for the system to interpret the signal. Lag is entirely inescapable so trying to change things because lag can screw with them is futile and counterproductive.

    Time is subjective. But that's another argument.

    So, all problems due to lag are impossible to fix or make better?
    ...and doing so would be counterproductive?



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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Forum Pirate on Sun Jan 27, 2013 5:54 am

    No. Trying to minimise lag (up to a point) is fine, building mechanics around avoiding lag in an effort to balance the game is counter productive.

    Mages and casters kill in one hit, but are fragile. Removing that 1 hit kill ability because lag can make it easier leaves them just fragile and without the power they had to be fragile to get. So in an attempt to balance around lag, what you did was hamstring the casters.


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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Sentiel on Sun Jan 27, 2013 6:47 am

    I'm excited.
    Perhaps the next time I'll read this, you guys might just find out how to time travel, or something. tongue

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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Oh_the_Humanity on Sun Jan 27, 2013 8:35 am

    Forum Pirate wrote:No. building mechanics around avoiding lag in an effort to balance the game is counter productive.
    I do understand what you are saying here, but don't know if I agree due to my lack of knowledge when it comes to coding games. I don't know if it's possible to account for something like lag. I doubt it, but maybe they can. Maybe there's some algorithm that reads the connection and compensates for the lag somehow. (I know that is not true at all)

    I would rather the BS be gone in DkS2 then stay exactly the same.
    just my opinion though. I hear people say time and time again that DkS just wouldn't be DkS without backstabs. Which I think is ridiculous. Maybe if I was a DeS vet as well I may be more attached to it, but I have to say...I wouldn't miss it one bit, part of that is because my fighting style doesn't use BS's. I only use them if my opponent is wide open.
    I think most would agree that the BS needs some attention for the next game. Either a fix or some small change in the backstab.
    Will have to wait and see.


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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Samurainova on Sun Jan 27, 2013 2:56 pm

    I believe from will find a way to work it out, after all, they somehow made Dark Souls better than demon souls. Im sure the next will be better just as the last. I just hope they take their time instead of trying to rush one out. I'd much rather wait for something good.


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