Dark Souls Without Backstabs

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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Animaaal on Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:04 pm

    Every time I read the title to this thread I think, " cheers !!!!!!!!", immediately followed by, " :x !!!!!!!!!".

    I don't know how a souls game would be a souls game without backstabs.

    I don't think the Duel mechanics would be the same without them unless it was replaced with something equally awesome.

    They need fixed though. Smaller hitboxes would not work considering the "tail" that follows us around because of lag. FROM will fix it in DkS2 though, I'm not worried. Heck, I think they might even give us another patch before DkS2 release. More dlc and another patch would be a great way to keep customer loyalty strong....but thats a different topic altogether.
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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by hey its andres on Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:55 pm

    Yeah it seems like there is going to be a long time before Dark Souls II comes out which honestly is not a bad thing. I'd rather get a refined and beautiful game in two years than a quick and rushed game in one.


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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Samurainova on Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:05 pm

    hey its andres wrote:Yeah it seems like there is going to be a long time before Dark Souls II comes out which honestly is not a bad thing. I'd rather get a refined and beautiful game in two years than a quick and rushed game in one.

    Yep, we dont want another Fallout New Vegas to occur if you catch my drift...
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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by hey its andres on Fri Jan 25, 2013 4:25 am

    Or a..Duke Nukem :pale:


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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Villain1 on Fri Jan 25, 2013 9:02 pm

    Well, they had plenty of time with that one... didn't help. silly

    Anyway, I've been checking this thread on and off and I thought of something, don't know if it's been covered - how about if wearing a shield on your back, i.e. two-handing your weapon with a shield in the other equip slot, reduced backstab damage? It makes sense physically, and it also provides a way to slightly nerf backstabs, but only against people who weren't going to turtle anyway. That way, backstabs are still effective on slower, defensive players who actually use their shield while also allowing the less defended and more... 'reckless' players some protection from being one-shotted because of a lag tail. It would give players a sort of choice between medium protection all round, and high frontal but low rear protection.

    Thoughts?


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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Samurainova on Fri Jan 25, 2013 9:34 pm

    Villain1 wrote:Well, they had plenty of time with that one... didn't help. silly

    Anyway, I've been checking this thread on and off and I thought of something, don't know if it's been covered - how about if wearing a shield on your back, i.e. two-handing your weapon with a shield in the other equip slot, reduced backstab damage? It makes sense physically, and it also provides a way to slightly nerf backstabs, but only against people who weren't going to turtle anyway. That way, backstabs are still effective on slower, defensive players who actually use their shield while also allowing the less defended and more... 'reckless' players some protection from being one-shotted because of a lag tail. It would give players a sort of choice between medium protection all round, and high frontal but low rear protection.

    Thoughts?

    That be a good idea. I mean, when you think about it a bandit dagger shouldn't really pierce a shield on someones back...
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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Forum Pirate on Fri Jan 25, 2013 9:38 pm

    Except now my dgm build is immune to backstabs that are its biggest weakness so I can just poise tank everybody or the guy 2handing a spear or even a catalyst that can't be backstabed either


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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Oh_the_Humanity on Sat Jan 26, 2013 12:24 am

    Villain1 wrote:Well, they had plenty of time with that one... didn't help. silly

    Anyway, I've been checking this thread on and off and I thought of something, don't know if it's been covered - how about if wearing a shield on your back, i.e. two-handing your weapon with a shield in the other equip slot, reduced backstab damage? It makes sense physically, and it also provides a way to slightly nerf backstabs, but only against people who weren't going to turtle anyway. That way, backstabs are still effective on slower, defensive players who actually use their shield while also allowing the less defended and more... 'reckless' players some protection from being one-shotted because of a lag tail. It would give players a sort of choice between medium protection all round, and high frontal but low rear protection.

    Thoughts?

    I've mentioned this multiple times throughout this site.
    No one has ever responded to it, so I stopped suggesting it.
    I think it's a great idea, that makes perfect sense.
    Could easily be patched into DkS. But we all no that wont happen.


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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by The Letter X on Sat Jan 26, 2013 12:28 am

    The BS immunity/damage reduction from having a shield on your back has been suggested many times over. I agree with Forum Pirate on the idea, though. I'd probably just run around with an ultra great weapon and dead angle everyone with no fear of being backstabbed.


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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Oh_the_Humanity on Sat Jan 26, 2013 12:34 am

    The Letter X wrote:The BS immunity/damage reduction from having a shield on your back has been suggested many times over. I agree with Forum Pirate on the idea, though. I'd probably just run around with an ultra great weapon and dead angle everyone with no fear of being backstabbed.

    I don't think it would be that black and white.
    There would be variations built into the mechanic to make it work with all builds. Or else it wouldn't work,which would be to bad really cause it only makes sense to have your shield protect whatever its blocking, whether it's blocking your front or your back.
    If it doesn't stop back stabs, then it should at least give you reduced damage, but you can still back stab, it just does less damage. Maybe 10 to 15%less, nothing to major. But might be the difference between life and death if your health is at the right spot.


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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by The Letter X on Sat Jan 26, 2013 12:38 am

    Oh_the_Humanity wrote:
    The Letter X wrote:The BS immunity/damage reduction from having a shield on your back has been suggested many times over. I agree with Forum Pirate on the idea, though. I'd probably just run around with an ultra great weapon and dead angle everyone with no fear of being backstabbed.

    I don't think it would be that black and white.
    There would be variations built into the mechanic to make it work with all builds. Or else it wouldn't work,which would be to bad really cause it only makes sense to have your shield protect whatever its blocking, whether it's blocking your front or your back.
    If it doesn't stop back stabs, then it should at least give you reduced damage, but you can still back stab, it just does less damage. Maybe 10 to 15%less, nothing to major. But might be the difference between life and death if your health is at the right spot.

    It would make since for it to stop some damage, but leaving the backstab system as-is wouldn't necessarily fix it even with reduced damage. I much prefer your two part backstab idea or not being able to be backstabbed unless you are casting a spell, using a healing item, or not locked onto your opponent.


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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Forum Pirate on Sat Jan 26, 2013 12:43 am

    Its an idea that would wreck balance. Everybody would just slap a grass crest shield on the back of their ug weapon user, heavy armored spear/rapier user and caster would laugh at you because the biggest weakness of those builds is now gone, with all the benifits they already had anyways still intact.

    Besides that, excluding greatshields, the weapons are almost all either to precise or to large for a shield on the back to do anything. Swords could just tag your kidnys/stomach/spine through your lower back, maces and axes strike the ribs from the side and your head from above, neither of which is stopped by a shield on the back, ultra great weapons use extreme force and would turn either the shield or your ribcage into a collection of splinters.


    I could keep going, but even from a logical standpoint the idea doesn't make sense.


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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Oh_the_Humanity on Sat Jan 26, 2013 12:47 am

    Forum Pirate wrote:Its an idea that would wreck balance. Everybody would just slap a grass crest shield on the back of their ug weapon user, heavy armored spear/rapier user and caster would laugh at you because the biggest weakness of those builds is now gone, with all the benifits they already had anyways still intact.

    Besides that, excluding greatshields, the weapons are almost all either to precise or to large for a shield on the back to do anything. Swords could just tag your kidnys/stomach/spine through your lower back, maces and axes strike the ribs from the side and your head from above, neither of which is stopped by a shield on the back, ultra great weapons use extreme force and would turn either the shield or your ribcage into a collection of splinters.


    I could keep going, but even from a logical standpoint the idea doesn't make sense.

    You obviously didn't read my post.
    I'm not talking about having your shield on your back as stopping ALL damage and backstabs, I'm talking about them stopping a small amount to add to the realism. It only makes sense for your shield to protect whatever its in front of.


    Last edited by Oh_the_Humanity on Sat Jan 26, 2013 12:50 am; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Oh_the_Humanity on Sat Jan 26, 2013 12:49 am

    The Letter X wrote:
    It would make since for it to stop some damage, but leaving the backstab system as-is wouldn't necessarily fix it even with reduced damage. I much prefer your two part backstab idea or not being able to be backstabbed unless you are casting a spell, using a healing item, or not locked onto your opponent.

    I agree.
    I think having your shield on your back should only reduce some damage to your backside and the backstab should be only achievable while casting, healing etc. and while not locked on, and if they can make the 2 part backstab work right (which I think could definitely be done) then those factors should for sure help alot if not fix the problem. The only way it could be fixed completely though, IMO is if the 2 part backstab was implemented in such a way that it gives the backstabee a chance to escape.
    Hers the tread talking about that:
    http://soulswiki.forumsrpg.com/t17228-idea-to-fix-the-backstab-make-it-a-2-part-move


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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Forum Pirate on Sat Jan 26, 2013 1:04 am

    So If I just stand there like a tree and let you walk behind me but I stay locked on you can't bs me? I call BS.

    The point of a bs isn't a stealth attack (though it can be used as one) its a punishment for exposing your back. The animation is just to drive home the power of and the extreme difficulty of avoiding an attack to ones back. I can dodge a punch (or take a punch) to get to ones back, it stands to reason (depending on armor) that the same can be said of weapons combat.


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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Oh_the_Humanity on Sat Jan 26, 2013 1:09 am

    Forum Pirate wrote:So If I just stand there like a tree and let you walk behind me but I stay locked on you can't bs me? I call BS.

    The point of a bs isn't a stealth attack (though it can be used as one) its a punishment for exposing your back. The animation is just to drive home the power of and the extreme difficulty of avoiding an attack to ones back. I can dodge a punch (or take a punch) to get to ones back, it stands to reason (depending on armor) that the same can be said of weapons combat.

    No. Like I said. Not so black and white. If it were to be implemented, From would make variations and things to make it work. Plus these are just ideas that I come up with on the spot most of the time, so of course there not going to be completely sound. Anyways, the lock on part was the one thing I was iffy about anyways. The 2 part backstab may work if done right. I think it has potential.


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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by The Letter X on Sat Jan 26, 2013 1:12 am

    ^Exactly why I believe BS's should only be able to be performed during the times I listed.

    To keep the realism of being able to actually stab someone in the back mid-fight, I think there should only be a damage or poise damage boost on the attack performed rather than locking you into an animation.


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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Forum Pirate on Sat Jan 26, 2013 1:22 am

    What I said was the weapons are to precise or to powerful for a shield on the back to stop ANY of the damage. All of them could easily circumvent or ignore the shield while maintaining the same lethality of the attack.

    As for the 2 part, grabning the shoulder isn't necessary. One could just tag you in the back of the head because you can't see the blow coming or hamstring you or outright tackle you and snap your neck with their bare hands.

    You seem to be missing the point that the bs and parry animations are entirely superficial. unlike the other attacks, the crit animations are symbolic, there are thousands of more realistic and just as damaging alternatives that offer just as little chance to defend against.

    They have your back, there's damn near nothing you can do about it. You don't have an out, thats the point.

    Reducing the hitbox would also reduce the "tail" btw and servers will help to reduce it further most of the time, and that "tail" is called phantom range which every attack gets.


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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by The Letter X on Sat Jan 26, 2013 1:29 am

    Forum Pirate wrote:What I said was the weapons are to precise or to powerful for a shield on the back to stop ANY of the damage. All of them could easily circumvent or ignore the shield while maintaining the same lethality of the attack.

    As for the 2 part, grabning the shoulder isn't necessary. One could just tag you in the back of the head because you can't see the blow coming or hamstring you or outright tackle you and snap your neck with their bare hands.

    You seem to be missing the point that the bs and parry animations are entirely superficial. unlike the other attacks, the crit animations are symbolic, there are thousands of more realistic and just as damaging alternatives that offer just as little chance to defend against.

    They have your back, there's damn near nothing you can do about it. You don't have an out, thats the point.

    Reducing the hitbox would also reduce the "tail" btw and servers will help to reduce it further most of the time, and that "tail" is called phantom range which every attack gets.

    The thing I don't like about the BS animation is that it breaks the flow of combat. The only reason an anìmatìon lIke we have now should occur Is durìng obvìous tìmes lìke spell castìng or Item usage. The parry animation works fine for the flow of combat except when the person switches to their rapier and take the time to two-hand it, though.


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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Oh_the_Humanity on Sat Jan 26, 2013 1:35 am

    Forum Pirate wrote:What I said was the weapons are to precise or to powerful for a shield on the back to stop ANY of the damage. All of them could easily circumvent or ignore the shield while maintaining the same lethality of the attack.

    ^I agree with this partially.I do think it could stop some damage on certain weapons.

    As for the 2 part, grabning the shoulder isn't necessary. One could just tag you in the back of the head because you can't see the blow coming or hamstring you or outright tackle you and snap your neck with their bare hands.

    ^The only reason for the shoulder grab is to be able to escape from it.
    which may or may not be the best idea, but if done right, it may.


    You seem to be missing the point that the bs and parry animations are entirely superficial. unlike the other attacks, the crit animations are symbolic, there are thousands of more realistic and just as damaging alternatives that offer just as little chance to defend against.

    ^No I get it, and I agree, it's punishment for leaving yourself open.
    But due to lag, that gets thrown out the window. Honestly as long as there is lag there will be problems with a mechanic that locks the player in place, due to the fact that your not going to be in the same spot on your screen as your opponents.


    They have your back, there's damn near nothing you can do about it. You don't have an out, thats the point.

    ^And thats the problem. (due to lag only)

    Reducing the hitbox would also reduce the "tail" btw and servers will help to reduce it further most of the time, and that "tail" is called phantom range which every attack gets.

    ^But the Backstab is the only one effected by it that screws up PVP.




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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Forum Pirate on Sat Jan 26, 2013 1:51 am

    There has to be an animation so its actually functional as a punish. If its just an attack it can be avoided just as easily as any other attack, which defeats the purpose. The animation ensures that the person being bs'd pays the price for there stupidly assuming the bser reacts in time.

    You can say "breaks the flow" all you'd like, but thats really just an faulty perception, as the varying stuns and parry animation do the same things to the "flow" by interrupting actions and locking you in place.

    The washing poles phantom range (especially when buffed) completely wrecks pvp, and phantom range on magic is common and routinely results in a 0hko.

    Lag can be accounted for. Learning to do so is important in nearly every online game, dks is no exception. If you got bs'd, you deserve it the VAST majority of the time for failing to account for lag and/or exposing yourself. Lessening the effectiveness of it because lag can make it better is a ridiculous practice, by that logic sniper rifles shouldnt kill in 1 shot


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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Animaaal on Sat Jan 26, 2013 8:31 am

    (Quotes are shortened in length)

    Villain1 wrote:...how about if wearing a shield on your back, i.e. two-handing your weapon with a shield in the other equip slot, reduced backstab damage?...

    I thought any idea was good a year ago when we started first coming up with them. I was fond of this one in particular. But as I thought of it, this is what I became afraid of… sad

    Forum Pirate wrote:...Its an idea that would wreck balance. Everybody would just slap a grass crest shield on the back of their ug weapon user, heavy armored spear/rapier user and caster would laugh at you because the biggest weakness of those builds is now gone, with all the benifits they already had anyways still intact...

    So in end I wanted them to be fixed, not accidentally empowered. One of my first builds was a duel-wielder ya know?!?! I think anyone from Demon’s Souls made a duel-wielder not giving an eff about shields…
    boy were we surprised! … :dragon-eye: :dragon-eye: ...anyways...

    The Letter X wrote:...leaving the backstab system as-is wouldn't necessarily fix it even with reduced damage...

    This is why the shield on your back idea would wreck balance. I’m with forum on this.

    However...this next quote is my opinion of the best case scenario with all things considered:

    Oh_the_Humanity wrote:...The 2 part backstab may work if done right. I think it has potential...

    The only problem with this idea is a HUGE problem. It requires, in my opinion, a major rework of the current coding for the mechanic. It would be an undertaking for sure. I’m not even sure if FROM would’ve considered this before the announcement of Dark Souls 2. Now even less I would imagine.

    Forum Pirate wrote:...Reducing the hitbox would also reduce the "tail" btw and servers will help to reduce it further most of the time, and that "tail" is called phantom range which every attack gets...

    This needs clarification in my opinion. The “tail” we all have come to hate is the result of lag and is the reason every attack has some sort of phantom range…like forum said.

    However, one would naturally assume that a smaller hitbox would only make the “tail” thinner. The girth of the tail is determined by the size of the hitbox, and the amount of lag creates the “length” or “distance” of the tail.

    Therefore, based on my limited understanding of latency and lag, I have come to believe that a smaller hitbox would help little. Would it reduce the amount of backstabs? I believe it would. But only at the cost of unnecessarily increasing the difficulty of performing a backstab. The “telestab”, as I like to refer, would still be intact.

    However, lock-off stabs, locked-on pivot stabs, and roll stabs would suffer, and I believe they are fine the way they are. I do think roll stabs could benefit from a 1/4-1/2 second delay though.

    Forum Pirate wrote:...There has to be an animation so its actually functional as a punish...

    This exactly. Backstabs are necessary. I persoanlly, (and this is at you Oh_the_Humanity and anyone else who's thought of this idea) think the "counter-backstab" would be effin awesome! :Baal02:

    Can you imagine?!?! I'd be jumping out of my seat if I just elbowed a ganker in the face, or kneed em in the groin, or broke thier wrist for trying to back stab muwaaaa I say!!! Duel cheers

    I would give FROM a bazillion interweb points if it was done right. :heart: It would have to be difficult to pull off, but managable. I would say at "pro status", it should have no greater than a 30% success rate...maybe 40% idk.

    I think there should be a "clock" if you will. I've mentioned an idea before about a tapping and/or holding block gives you a 1/4-1/2 second immunity against backstabs, NOT unlimited immunity.

    If done right, it could disrupt the ease of pulling off a backstab, and make rolling a viable way to create space. I don't think you should have to worry about getting backstabbed when rolling. Rolling immunity should apply to backstabs, and in-game, it certainly doesn't feel that way.

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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Forum Pirate on Sat Jan 26, 2013 8:59 am

    It does apply. The hit detection is client based. IE you haven't actually started the roll until they see you roll, so they can bs you until the roll starts on their screen. Lag makes it worse.

    There is no way to remove the "tele stab" as long as lag is a factor (guess why fighting game tournaments are done with LAN setups) but servers (ie a tendancy towards reduced lag) and a smaller hitbox could dramatically reduce the frequency of such occourances, making additional "fixes" unnecessary and counter intuitive to the purpose of the attack (being a punish for you leaving your back open)

    PS. you can counter back stab, you can also piviot parry or just unlock and attack, you just have to be quick about it. These techniques (with practice)will render you almost completely immune to bsing unless you are stuck in an animation.


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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Animaaal on Sat Jan 26, 2013 9:21 am

    Forum Pirate wrote:It does apply. The hit detection is client based. IE you haven't actually started the roll until they see you roll, so they can bs you until the roll starts on their screen. Lag makes it worse.

    There is no way to remove the "tele stab" as long as lag is a factor (guess why fighting game tournaments are done with LAN setups) but servers (ie a tendancy towards reduced lag) and a smaller hitbox could dramatically reduce the frequency of such occourances, making additional "fixes" unnecessary and counter intuitive to the purpose of the attack (being a punish for you leaving your back open)

    PS. you can counter back stab, you can also piviot parry or just unlock and attack, you just have to be quick about it. These techniques (with practice)will render you almost completely immune to bsing unless you are stuck in an animation.

    If you're refering to "roll-immunity" applying to rolls, then yes I know that. That's why I said it doesn't "feel" that way in game. Being halfway through your roll animation and getting pulled into a backstab certainly doesn't feel like roll immunity applies. That is all I was saying.

    I also know the hit detection is client based. Thats why the hitbox has a "tail". Its from the past so to speak and yes lag makes it worse, or "further in the past", hence a "longer" tail.

    No way to remove "tele-stab"?...I'm not sure about that. And yes i know why online games benefit from LAN set-ups, but that will never happen in Dark Souls. If there is a fix for the backstabs in Dark Souls, it will have nothing to do with regionalizing players, but only how to deal with its current world wide p2p system I'd assume. Therefore talking about how dedicated servers or regional lobbies might fix other games is irrelevant to this game.

    P.S. I appreciate your advice, however unecessary it is. I have no problems playing the game on a competitive level as is. I'm familiar with all the counter measures and have been for a long time. And no, I do not agree that being well versed in said mechanics makes you seem "invunerable" to backstabs. Not getting backstabbed because you are good at avoiding and applying them, only means you are good at dealing with the broken mechanic...

    ...I dont think anyone is saying they are not broken.

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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Forum Pirate on Sat Jan 26, 2013 9:37 am

    I said "unless youre stuck in an animation." I also said "virtually," with heavy lag or stupid mistakes they will still happen outside of recovery frames, but its nowhere near as common.


    Besides that, from a real life perspective, its not "i have your shoulder, youre screwed" its " I have your back, youre screwed" if youre within reach of the opposite arm, they can still fight to get into a decent position. You don't have time to use a backstab type move because they have time to escape.

    As for servers not helping, thats just not true. It won't always help, but help it will, especially with longer distances as the signals don't have to travel as far. I also didn't say anything about region. There are games with servers that allow the player to choose the server they want to play on.

    Ok fine, if the hit detection was based on what you saw, rather than what your opponent saw or a server based system, there would be no tele stabs. Also, nobody would ever make contact unless it was a sight parry.


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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

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