Dark Souls Without Backstabs

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    The Letter X
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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by The Letter X on Tue Jan 29, 2013 9:36 am

    Ha, I'm pretty much the same. When I fìrst started to PvP I never left the Burg, and ìt stuck wìth me as my favorìte PvP spot.The Burg is still my favorite place for PvP, but it has slowed down to a terrible state. I still try there sometimes, but I normally just host in the Township for more activity.


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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Sentiel on Tue Jan 29, 2013 9:46 am

    In that case I admire your patience to deal with the BS that awaits one in Township.

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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by The Letter X on Tue Jan 29, 2013 10:07 am

    Sentiel wrote:In that case I admire your patience to deal with the BS that awaits one in Township.

    I only find that BS when invading, and even then it's not as bad as most make it out to be. I might run into a gank squad for very 20 invasions in the Township, which spices things up. I normally just meet lone SL300+ characters. Still, hosting for the win. Joy


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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Sentiel on Tue Jan 29, 2013 10:15 am

    The Letter X wrote:
    Sentiel wrote:In that case I admire your patience to deal with the BS that awaits one in Township.

    I only find that BS when invading, and even then it's not as bad as most make it out to be. I might run into a gank squad for very 20 invasions in the Township, which spices things up. I normally just meet lone SL300+ characters. Still, hosting for the win. Joy
    I already said that in here somewhere.
    Most of my invaders in Township just tail it for the almighty elevator, or hide behind mobs. Even some of those that I summon via RSS do that.

    I guess it's just a bad luck.

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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by The Letter X on Tue Jan 29, 2013 10:20 am

    Sentiel wrote:
    The Letter X wrote:
    Sentiel wrote:In that case I admire your patience to deal with the BS that awaits one in Township.

    I only find that BS when invading, and even then it's not as bad as most make it out to be. I might run into a gank squad for very 20 invasions in the Township, which spices things up. I normally just meet lone SL300+ characters. Still, hosting for the win. Joy
    I already said that in here somewhere.
    Most of my invaders in Township just tail it for the almighty elevator, or hide behind mobs. Even some of those that I summon via RSS do that.

    I guess it's just a bad luck.

    I've always been lucky with that stuff. :|

    Even when I first started I never had problems with BS fishers, lag, or anything else that might deter a new player. I don't often run into "dishonorable" players, and ìt's still hard for me to get hatemail.


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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Samurainova on Tue Jan 29, 2013 10:57 am

    Offly enough I find people in township to buff their weapon much more than anywhere else. :S

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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by The Letter X on Tue Jan 29, 2013 10:59 am

    Samurainova wrote:Offly enough I find people in township to buff their weapon much more than anywhere else. :S

    This is true as well. Something like 80% of the people I have fought in the past 2 days in the Township have used some sort of weapon buff.


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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Samurainova on Tue Jan 29, 2013 11:17 am

    The Letter X wrote:
    Samurainova wrote:Offly enough I find people in township to buff their weapon much more than anywhere else. :S

    This is true as well. Something like 80% of the people I have fought in the past 2 days in the Township have used some sort of weapon buff.

    Its probalbly due to that easy bonfire access, wouldn't you agree?
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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by ComaPrison on Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:53 pm

    here's an idea. get rid of the vulnerability that is on when you are in the backstab animation


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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Ashran on Tue Jan 29, 2013 8:20 pm

    No backstabs? WRONG!

    Calibrated backstabs? RIGHT!

    -Greatswords and ridiculous big weapons do less dmg in bs, and its also more difficult to do it.
    -Normal swords, daggers and rapiers still the same.
    -Backstabing when you are wearing a shield on your back now gives you a dmg modificator.
    -Backstabing takes more durability points excepting daggers and normal rapiers.
    -New get-up attacks to avoid chainbs.

    Coffee! Thats it.


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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Oh_the_Humanity on Tue Jan 29, 2013 8:25 pm

    Ashran wrote:
    -New get-up attacks to avoid chains.

    Genius!


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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Animaaal on Tue Jan 29, 2013 8:55 pm

    Forum Pirate wrote:They are a punish only move now. Punishing failure to spot me and/or failure to space properly (poise stab) and/or failure to account for my actions (roll stab, piviot stab, counter stab) That doesn't mean they can't be used offensively. Stealth and pressuring an opponent into making a mistake and punishing the mistake you worked to make happen are quite capable of being offensive techniques, where the roll bs is either offensive (to punish healing/items) or counter offensive (to punish attacks.)


    I'm also not suggesting it because of lag, I'm suggesting it because it would encourage percision in bs attempts rather than fairly sloppy roll or piviot stabs that are tremendously frequent in dks combat. If would make dealing with ganks somewhat harder, it would also make ganking somewhat harder (as the increased difficulty in bsing works both ways) and it would in no way invalidate lock off piviot bsing as a viable tactic in gank situations (or any situation really) just make it slightly tougher.

    First of all thank you for the conversation, I've enjoyed it.

    Secondly, while I agree the scale is tipped towards backstabs being primarily used for punishment, I would disagree that shrinking the hitbox would make them just as offensive. Your aggression would have to increase in order for your success rate remain the same. I think that is unnecessary. They are not a punish only move. Often, they are the end of a combo, which you eluded to.

    Like we've all said before, they are easy enough to avoid but yet, we all still get backstabbed. I think its because the hitbox is currently balanced. You get punished when you're supposed to and avoid them when you're supposed to (with the exception of magnet stabs). It is of my opinion that stagger-->backstabs feel near perfect. As do lock off backstabs. Some roll stabs feel sloppy because of the tail.

    Again, if the main reason for making the hitbox smaller is to reduce the “cheapness” of backstabs, then it is a failed concept. It will only increase the difficulty of every backstab while reducing the thinkness/diameter of the hitbox tail. Which in the end will still need another fix down the road. A smaller hitbox and dedicated servers are not a fix for this. They will be better, said that before too, but they will still feel cheap. Since its inception, the backstab hitbox has been reduced twice (imo, at least once), and it is still received by the fans with mixed reviews. By both supporters and opposers of the mechanic. You should be able to use the mechanic at an intermediate level. Advanced players usually do not recieve a backstab outside of the ones they feel they deserve (with the exception of magnet stabs of course).


    I've said before that roll stabs could use a tweak, but thats just my opinion. I think you should at least have to come out of your roll before initiating a roll stab. It would force you to position better. A smaller hitbox (to make them more skillful) is of the same premise.

    Forum Pirate wrote:You're fighting 3 people at once. Its going to be a bastard.


    That is also balancing a mechanic around something unrelated to it. Address the problem. The problem (if you believe it to be one) is ganks and that should be addressed if from has a problem with it. (ie only being allowed one phantom)


    As for the clock, its not a good idea, especially when considering the importance of roll bsing in countering turtles, casters and ug weapon users, who tend to be highly resistant to frontal assaults and capable of way more damage per hit than everybody else. Roll poking does it to but having multiple counters is important to prevent centeralising gameplay. (it would also make ganks much more difficult to overcome btw, because now one cant roll bs the casters or turtles and everybody else can just constantly tap L1 when not attacking to be immune to a surprise backstab, so my suggestion would increase the difficulty of ganks by less than yours)

    Thank you for taking the time to read it, but I’d prefer to keep the specifics of that conversation over in that thread if possible. However, based on what you briefly stated, I’d just say you haven’t thought about it long enough. I mean you no offense, but it would take me too long to explain and I’d derail.

    As far as gankers, is pivot, punish, lockoff backstabs really the problem with avoiding ganks? No, its trying to calculate the perfect roll get away three different ways…hence….the vacuum stab.

    Personally, I dont think the anti-ganker arguement is valid. You're outnumbered, you should lose.

    Also, while it would seem mid-roller builds would recieve an advantage through the reduction in size of the hitbox, it would also have repercussions. Making the backstab more difficult for a mid-roller in any way is a bad idea. After all, it is only (a majority of the time) the roll stab that poses problems for a mid roller. And again, roll stabs seem sloppy because of the tail, not the hitbox. And once again I will defer to how a smaller hitbox will not reduce vacuum stabs point of view.

    If a smaller hitbox would some how remove the "I have created my own gravitational pull backstab", then I'd be all in. But it won't, so I'm not. Address the problem. The problem being magic stabs, not pivot, roll, or lock off stabs...again, they are all fine now.


    Last edited by Animaaal on Tue Jan 29, 2013 9:10 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : grammer structure)

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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Animaaal on Tue Jan 29, 2013 9:06 pm

    Oh_the_Humanity wrote:
    Ashran wrote:
    -New get-up attacks to avoid chains.

    Genius!

    I'll second that. There is the stand up immunity, but I like this idea better.
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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Oh_the_Humanity on Tue Jan 29, 2013 9:28 pm

    I just had a thought on this subject. (Not a fix for the BS issue, so calm down)
    What if there was a way to visually see when you can BS someone?
    So if your locked on while trying to BS, once your in the perfect spot your lock-on icon changes red or a different shape, something like that. Something to let you know that your in the right spot.
    Not sure how much this will help but it may help.
    There's always going to be lag, so there really isn't a "fix" for our problem. Just throwing out anything I can think of. I'm sure there's a ton of reasons why this idea sucks, so...lets here em'


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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Animaaal on Tue Jan 29, 2013 9:45 pm

    Oh_the_Humanity wrote:I just had a thought on this subject. (Not a fix for the BS issue, so calm down)
    What if there was a way to visually see when you can BS someone?
    So if your locked on while trying to BS, once your in the perfect spot your lock-on icon changes red or a different shape, something like that. Something to let you know that your in the right spot.
    Not sure how much this will help but it may help.
    There's always going to be lag, so there really isn't a "fix" for our problem. Just throwing out anything I can think of. I'm sure there's a ton of reasons why this idea sucks, so...lets here em'

    I wouldn't say the idea sucks. It might be a good idea to have the option off turning it off. Sort of a "how to" for intermediate players.

    True, there is no current "fix" for lag, but there are ideas that could help. A breakout move for instance.
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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Oh_the_Humanity on Tue Jan 29, 2013 9:49 pm

    Animaaal wrote:
    Oh_the_Humanity wrote:I just had a thought on this subject. (Not a fix for the BS issue, so calm down)
    What if there was a way to visually see when you can BS someone?
    So if your locked on while trying to BS, once your in the perfect spot your lock-on icon changes red or a different shape, something like that. Something to let you know that your in the right spot.
    Not sure how much this will help but it may help.
    There's always going to be lag, so there really isn't a "fix" for our problem. Just throwing out anything I can think of. I'm sure there's a ton of reasons why this idea sucks, so...lets here em'

    I wouldn't say the idea sucks. It might be a good idea to have the option off turning it off. Sort of a "how to" for intermediate players.

    True, there is no current "fix" for lag, but there are ideas that could help. A breakout move for instance.

    Yeah, the breakout move would be a cool addition, fixing lag aside, the breakout would just add to the combat and give you more options to strategize with.


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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Animaaal on Tue Jan 29, 2013 9:52 pm

    Oh_the_Humanity wrote:
    Animaaal wrote:
    Oh_the_Humanity wrote:I just had a thought on this subject. (Not a fix for the BS issue, so calm down)
    What if there was a way to visually see when you can BS someone?
    So if your locked on while trying to BS, once your in the perfect spot your lock-on icon changes red or a different shape, something like that. Something to let you know that your in the right spot.
    Not sure how much this will help but it may help.
    There's always going to be lag, so there really isn't a "fix" for our problem. Just throwing out anything I can think of. I'm sure there's a ton of reasons why this idea sucks, so...lets here em'

    I wouldn't say the idea sucks. It might be a good idea to have the option off turning it off. Sort of a "how to" for intermediate players.

    True, there is no current "fix" for lag, but there are ideas that could help. A breakout move for instance.

    Yeah, the breakout move would be a cool addition, fixing lag aside, the breakout would just add to the combat and give you more options to strategize with.

    Agreed. So as long as it was difficult to pull off. Otherwise there would be no sense in even initiating a backstab, which kinda defeats the purpose, sorta like shrinking the hitbox into a remnant of its former self...imo.


    Last edited by Animaaal on Tue Jan 29, 2013 9:53 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : structure)
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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Oh_the_Humanity on Tue Jan 29, 2013 10:00 pm

    Animaaal wrote:
    Oh_the_Humanity wrote:
    Animaaal wrote:
    Oh_the_Humanity wrote:I just had a thought on this subject. (Not a fix for the BS issue, so calm down)
    What if there was a way to visually see when you can BS someone?
    So if your locked on while trying to BS, once your in the perfect spot your lock-on icon changes red or a different shape, something like that. Something to let you know that your in the right spot.
    Not sure how much this will help but it may help.
    There's always going to be lag, so there really isn't a "fix" for our problem. Just throwing out anything I can think of. I'm sure there's a ton of reasons why this idea sucks, so...lets here em'

    I wouldn't say the idea sucks. It might be a good idea to have the option off turning it off. Sort of a "how to" for intermediate players.

    True, there is no current "fix" for lag, but there are ideas that could help. A breakout move for instance.

    Yeah, the breakout move would be a cool addition, fixing lag aside, the breakout would just add to the combat and give you more options to strategize with.

    Agreed. So as long as it was difficult to pull off. Otherwise there would be no sense in even initiating a backstab, which kinda defeats the purpose, sorta like shrinking the hitbox into a remnant of its former self...imo.

    Yeah, it would have to be somewhat difficult. Im trying to think of a good way to control the breakout without using tacky controls, like spin the analog stick in a 360 4 times in a row. It has to fit with the souls style controls and still be difficult. I dunno?
    Anyways,
    What if when you double tapped (x) or (A) to do a 180?
    Like a quick turn around move, so when you think there is a BS coming you can quickly turn around and counter.


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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Animaaal on Tue Jan 29, 2013 10:05 pm

    Oh_the_Humanity wrote:...Yeah, it would have to be somewhat difficult. Im trying to think of a good way to control the breakout without using tacky controls, like spin the analog stick in a 360 4 times in a row. It has to fit with the souls style controls and still be difficult. I dunno?
    Anyways,
    What if when you double tapped (x) or (A) to do a 180?
    Like a quick turn around move, so when you think there is a BS coming you can quickly turn around and counter...

    Idk man. There would have to be a discussion for the best breakout method. It probably would consist of some really cheesey button sequences...they'd almost have to.

    Double tapping a button would be nice, but you can always unlock then relock for a similar effect. Whether or not a double tap move work more effectively i dont know, I havent given it much though I guess. I think you'll run into lag issues the same way you do vacuum stabs though.
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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Oh_the_Humanity on Tue Jan 29, 2013 10:11 pm

    Animaaal wrote:
    Oh_the_Humanity wrote:...Yeah, it would have to be somewhat difficult. Im trying to think of a good way to control the breakout without using tacky controls, like spin the analog stick in a 360 4 times in a row. It has to fit with the souls style controls and still be difficult. I dunno?
    Anyways,
    What if when you double tapped (x) or (A) to do a 180?
    Like a quick turn around move, so when you think there is a BS coming you can quickly turn around and counter...

    Idk man. There would have to be a discussion for the best breakout method. It probably would consist of some really cheesey button sequences...they'd almost have to.

    Double tapping a button would be nice, but you can always unlock then relock for a similar effect. Whether or not a double tap move work more effectively i dont know, I havent given it much though I guess. I think you'll run into lag issues the same way you do vacuum stabs though.

    Yep. thats the problem. Honestly it's something were going to have to live with. Adding things will probably end up making it worse because of it. So I guess we should just leave the BS alone unless someone thinks of THE ultimate solution. I'm starting to think there isn't one. :cry:


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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Animaaal on Tue Jan 29, 2013 10:19 pm

    Oh_the_Humanity wrote:
    Yep. thats the problem. Honestly it's something were going to have to live with. Adding things will probably end up making it worse because of it. So I guess we should just leave the BS alone unless someone thinks of THE ultimate solution. I'm starting to think there isn't one. :cry:

    I'm not of that mind set. I dont think a breakout move would ruin the game, only that any addition, subtractive, replacement, modification, implementation of anything at all done in a halfa$$ way would be bad.

    I think a breakout move could be applied to Dark Souls in a very productive way. Most that disagree only say, "They'll never do it" or "It wont work right" because of said pessimism.

    After all, if they can come up with an entire sidequest of dlc, new enemies, new weapons, why the heck couldn't they engineer this?

    Real question is: Would they?...answer...prolly not.

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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Marino. on Tue Jan 29, 2013 10:23 pm

    Its just the Damage thats ridiculous .
    In Demons PVP BS Damage did just around 20% more Damage than a regular hit (don't call me out on that one) and nobody complained back then .

    I already said in a similiar thread that a "get up" Move would be really cool and helpfull happy
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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Oh_the_Humanity on Tue Jan 29, 2013 10:23 pm

    Its not that its a bad idea, I mean I came up with it so of course I like it. Its just that adding anything to an already suffering mechanic due to lag will only add to that suffering. I would love to see a breakout move and a quick turn around move and things like that, but until lag is dealt with adding anything will only complicate things further.
    It pains me to say this.


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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Animaaal on Tue Jan 29, 2013 10:34 pm

    Marino. wrote:Its just the Damage thats ridiculous .
    In Demons PVP BS Damage did just around 20% more Damage than a regular hit (don't call me out on that one) and nobody complained back then .

    I already said in a similiar thread that a "get up" Move would be really cool and helpfull happy

    Whaaaaaa?!?! I mean, okay fine I won’t. But, people didn’t complain about backstabs as much because there were roll cancels, and no poise stabs…just sayin.

    Oh_the_Humanity wrote:Its not that its a bad idea, I mean I came up with it so of course I like it. Its just that adding anything to an already suffering mechanic due to lag will only add to that suffering. I would love to see a breakout move and a quick turn around move and things like that, but until lag is dealt with adding anything will only complicate things further.
    It pains me to say this.

    I don’t understand this. There are fixes and compensations for lag all the time. Besides that, I’ve never said that breakouts have anything to do with lag. I like the idea for it standing on its own merit. It having a dampering side-effect on the tele stab epidemic is simply that…a side-effect. And a positive one I might add.

    Again, incorporating an entire animation and mechanic to the game is not cost-effective (as far as I know). That would be the only problem with it. Would it be affected by lag? Yes. Just like everything else in this game.

    There are other "fight" games with said mechanic and said lag and they function beautifully.

    The problem is I think people are saying "shrink the hitbox" because this argument is worn out for them, and they dont think it would be a huge undertaking on FROM's behalf, hence something feasible.


    Last edited by Animaaal on Tue Jan 29, 2013 10:36 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : grammer)
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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Oh_the_Humanity on Tue Jan 29, 2013 11:15 pm

    Animaaal wrote:Would it be affected by lag? Yes. Just like everything else in this game.

    Everything is effected by lag, yes.
    But, the only thing that suffers because of lag is the BS.

    I would still like to see the breakout added, thats just more options. As long as it's done right of course.
    I remember playing DoA4 online for awhile, I was addicted to it back in the day. I never encountered any lag whatsoever that caused this type of issues.
    I dunno? I keep going back and fourth on this subject.
    I guess will have to wait and see what happens in DkS2.


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