Dark Souls Without Backstabs

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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Kyōkai on Fri Jan 18, 2013 8:41 pm

    Dark Souls without backstabs?

    Everyone would god-tier at parrying.

    And Ciaran having the Hornet Ring on would be pointless.


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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by reim0027 on Fri Jan 18, 2013 10:12 pm

    BLA1NE wrote:Then 90% of the playerbase would stack poise and it would become a stun-locking game. It's already annoying when you're fighting someone in full Havel's, with a small weapon, and he backs himself into a corner to heal. Nothing you can do. Now imagine that tactic being used by 90% of the players, but they don't even need to find a corner. Doesn't sound fun.

    Backstabs aren't perfect as they are, hell they're almost broken! But removing them would be a terrible idea.
    Agreed. I love backstabs, just not the window. When I played with a no BS rule, I grew tired of it. So many opportunities to punish mistakes or recovery times. Imagine the tank turtles that would abound without backstabs.


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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by BLA1NE on Fri Jan 18, 2013 10:21 pm

    reim0027 wrote:When I played with a no BS rule, I grew tired of it. So many opportunities to punish mistakes or recovery times.
    I know! I used to be so cautious not to backstab, that I'd refrain from many a good opportunity to hit, in case it registered as a backstab! In hindsight, it was a slightly disproportionate response to the issue, but it was the easiest to implement in FC. It'd be better to say "fair backstabs are allowed", but then it's very hard to define what a fair backstab is. Everyone will have different interpretations. But hey, it's just another aspect of the PvP meta-game! It's cool that we can decide for ourselves how much we're willing to allow backstabbing--"outside", it may be lawless; but in our FCs, we make our own rules.


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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by reim0027 on Fri Jan 18, 2013 10:27 pm

    I'm gonna have to agree with you agreeing with me silly

    Seriously though, "fair" is so subjective, especially considering lag on one end.

    If someone BS fishes and/or BS spams, then they will get obliterated by skilled players. So, in other words, skill can overcome BS in many cases. I would just like it if more skill were required to pull off BSing, especially considering the amount of damage they cause.


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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by hey its andres on Fri Jan 18, 2013 10:36 pm

    Think about this: fire tempest is a great spell yet if cast at the wrong time will lead to death. Now the reason for this is that it leaves you extremely open to a BS. If there were no BS think of how powerful spells like this would become
    (GLGSD, TWoP, VoS, etc.). Not only that but consider the implications of this with regards to heavy weapons. Suddenly we've got people running around with greataxes and zweihanders with no consequence to their speed. This even goes as far as armor. Why would you make a fast build when you can be a slow build that doesn't need to worry about rolling or attacking at the wrong time and getting BSed/killed as a result? Another thing to think about is that Anyone would be able to turn their back on you and run away from a fight without fear of having the rest of their health be destroyed.

    Backstabs are the worst form of attack, except for all the others.


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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Hydreigon11 on Fri Jan 18, 2013 10:53 pm

    Dark Souls without backstabs isn't Dark Souls. You have to think, Dark Souls is not (and hopefully will not be) made for PvP, the main focus is PvE. Even though we play for PvP, the game is just a PvE game with a sprinkling of PvP, I say I hope it will not be made for PvP, because then it just turns into another CoD. From balances the game from a PvE perspective, because that is what they are selling, they do not sell it as a competitive multiplayer game with fair and balanced PvP it's sold as a tough game, and focusing on PvP detracts from that. Will removing backstabs make the game harder? yes, but it won't make it better. The combat drew me to Dark Souls, because it was different the backstabs and parries have never really been put into any game I have played as well. Backstabs is what makes the game what it is. From both a PvE and a PvP standpoint, the hit box for a backstab needs to be reduced, but removing them from the game will ultimately remove a lot of us, I would think.


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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by RedderAI on Fri Jan 18, 2013 11:41 pm

    Backstabs are hugely unrealistic IMO. That fact that it LOCKS you in place is stupid. BS should be soley left to stealth builds. It's retardef that you stand in place for about a second while your opponent winds up to deliver a possible fatal blow. The fact that people rely on BS is just sad. It breaks the game and lessens everyone's joy.

    BS should be left to stealth exclusively. Seriously, just implant a system that judges whether or not you are hidden from a player. I hate that people have to figure out how to counter BS. Seriously this is the MAIN reason we don't have too many new pvp'ers. It's really pathetic.

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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Animaaal on Sat Jan 19, 2013 2:03 am

    RedderAI wrote:Backstabs are hugely unrealistic IMO. That fact that it LOCKS you in place is stupid. BS should be soley left to stealth builds. It's retardef that you stand in place for about a second while your opponent winds up to deliver a possible fatal blow. The fact that people rely on BS is just sad. It breaks the game and lessens everyone's joy.

    BS should be left to stealth exclusively. Seriously, just implant a system that judges whether or not you are hidden from a player. I hate that people have to figure out how to counter BS. Seriously this is the MAIN reason we don't have too many new pvp'ers. It's really pathetic.
    -I'll agree that people who evolve their entire playstyle around backstab mechanics IS sad.
    -However, I do not believe it breaks the game.

    ***A little story if I may about a backstab that did brake my heart though :pale: ***

    So there's a very popular guy on youtube that helped pioneer the movement for properly understanding the backstab mechanics in Dark Souls relative to Demon's Souls. If I said his name most of you would know who he is. So we'll call him "peepstone" okay?

    I'm in the Parish one night screwin around with random invaders and phantoming while in body form. I'm midrollin, have my pyro in my right hand, just tryin to collect some souls ya know? Soul level 15 or so if I recall.

    So Peep invades me and I think, "Holy **** its him! Cooooool, this hould be fun." So he comes strollin over to me, naked, with an onionhead, not even bowing, didn't jump me per say, but didn't bow like the vet he is (fooooor shame). :evil:

    So anyways not everyone bows right? But I couldn't help but think, "This guy isn't gonna twink me is he?!?!?!" Sure enough, rollstab and I have like 2 health points left. I manage to get a couple hits in, but of course I died. I was unimpressed to say the least.

    So about 5 minutes later here he comes again. This time however, I take off my chest piece (why I always phantom in body form I'll never know lol), switch my pyro to the left hand and say to myself, "Bring it b&%*h."

    He was overconfident from the start. My wep was only a plus 5 nothing special, so when I pivot stabbed him right off the bat, I hardly did that much damage. My weapon was nothing compared to his plus whatever lightning he was using. I thought for sure a player of his caliber would've used a chaos...but whatever.

    This obviously suprised him and into bs mode he goes...no holds barred. It was intense. I'm not trying to ghost over details, I only remeber this because of what happened next.

    So by this point I know I need at least 4 backstabs compared to his 2 for a kill. So, I say screw it lock-off run bawlz out and land a no-lock stab. It was kinda risky, but really the only chance I had to beat him.

    And ya know what he did next?!?!?!?!....HE GAVE ME THE HURRAH! GESTURE. It's like he was trying to "teach me a lesson" or something. It's like he thought, "There ya go buddy! That a boy!" I was mift. Here is someone who is probably one of the best pvpers around, and he's pullin this crap?!?!? Not everyone needs a lesson in bs mechanics pal. I was so mift I ran up the stairs and jumped off the bridge.

    Moral of the story?!?!?! If you wanna "teach" people something go make another youtube vid bro. You're in the elite and probably coulda beat me with bare fists. You certainly didn't need a lightning weapon in the Parish. Besides, you should be offering your time in the forums helping rookies understand the basics if thats really your goal. Certainly not invading people in the Parish of all places with op'd gear.

    But hey, now it sounds like I'm trying to tell people how to play. Which I'll never do. It only bothered me because it was Peepstone. I couldn't have cared less if it was someone other than him.

    Idols man...they'll let you down every single time.

    ***End rant

    ***EDIT***
    spacing and grammer


    Last edited by Animaaal on Sun Jan 20, 2013 12:25 am; edited 5 times in total
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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Onion Knight on Sat Jan 19, 2013 12:21 pm

    Dark Souls without backstabs would essentially be this:



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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Samurainova on Sat Jan 19, 2013 4:16 pm

    Onion Knight wrote:Dark Souls without backstabs would essentially be this:


    Where does one receive such weapons in dark souls?
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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by WhatDoesThePendantDo? on Sat Jan 19, 2013 4:48 pm

    Samurainova wrote:Where does one receive such weapons in dark souls?

    Cut off a Hydra head.

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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Shakie666 on Sat Jan 19, 2013 8:41 pm

    Onion Knight wrote:Dark Souls without backstabs would essentially be this:


    +1 for the lol!
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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Hydreigon11 on Sat Jan 19, 2013 10:03 pm

    Animaal, using bullet points does not break up your wall of text, little pointer for next time. Anyway that story is horrendous, personally, I learnt everything through EWGF but a pro invading noobs with OP gear, just well that's Dark Souls PvP, **** like that makes me really bitter about this game and I've run into my fair share of Peeps, people who I KNOW are pro, yet do this crap, how is that even fun?


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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by hey its andres on Sat Jan 19, 2013 11:18 pm

    Going off of that, I invaded someone I had a respect for...while I was gank hunting. Needless to say after getting BSed WotGed by him and his phantom I was less than impressed. There is, however, a time when being OP is fun: when you earn it. I have a lvl 1 who has all but beat the game and when I am bored I use him to invade and I will just screw around with the host. I use pyromancy but stick to fists or sword hilt if the person is not trying to chain BS me after I've clearly shown I have no intention of killing them. I know this is off the topic but I wanted to respond to what Animaal said.

    I think we can all agree backstabs will be better in DkSII when there are dedicated servers. I think that they really should make the "window" smaller but other than that I don't mind them.


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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Forum Pirate on Sun Jan 20, 2013 12:31 am

    My opinion has already been stated by reim, blain and scare so I'll keep it short.

    Needs work
    Necessary balancing mechanic

    Scare hit the nail on the head with his assessment for those of you crying "unrealistic" or "looks stupid." (not to mention all the other unrealistic stuff in game, like giant demons) The animation is just to get the point across, and the concept behind the mechanic is entirely sound.

    (as an example, I do jujitsu, our greatest hope in a fight is to get sombodys back exposed because even with our bare hands we'll likely have you unconscious, maimed or dead in less than 10 seconds should we succeed.)


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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Animaaal on Sun Jan 20, 2013 12:45 am

    @Hydreigon11
    First off all, thank you for reading that garbbled mess of gooblady glock, I'm so sorry for the structure. I fixed it.
    Secondly, +1 for reading and the grammer advice. I'd have given "thanks" but don't know how yet. Aaaaand ya, I don't see the fun in it either.

    @hey its andres, thank you as well for making it through that mess without going cross eyed. +1 for being a like mind and mad focusing skills. I'd give you "thanks" for just messin with hosts, that is if I could figure it out lol.

    I don't think relating dedicated servers to the possible backstab mechanics is going too far off topic. If it is, then I apologize, but I'd like to elaborate a little...

    It's not so much the servers that can make a big difference (there will still be lag, it will help a little though), but getting rid of that damn hitbox "tail" that follows us everywhere because of the lag.

    It's like someone is grabbing us by the tail and puuuulllllling us into a backstab AFTER we've rolled right? That's whats going on. IF they can compensate for that, then I don't think backstabs need an adjustment for damage, the hitbox, anything really. They are fine the way they are....its just....how do you get rid of lag??? The ps4??? Sony's God of War idea??? Idk man....

    But one thing is clear, fix backstabs or get rid of em and think of something else. Going back to Demon's Souls roll cancel is not an option imo either.

    ...now to find the other posts I gotta fix....
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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Forum Pirate on Sun Jan 20, 2013 12:56 am

    The backwards pull because hit detection is client based. Chances are, it was entirely legit on the other players screen. Your "fix" wouldn't actually stop that. Reduced lag would mean its more likely to look proper, but that wouldn't fix it either. The hit detection would need a change to stop that

    (and even then, depending on the change to the system, it could happen anyways. Look at sniper kills in COD to see what I mean. The bullet can miss me on my screen, but if it hits me on theirs I'm dead)


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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Animaaal on Sun Jan 20, 2013 12:58 am

    Forum Pirate wrote:My opinion has already been stated by reim, blain and scare so I'll keep it short.

    Needs work
    Necessary balancing mechanic

    Scare hit the nail on the head with his assessment for those of you crying "unrealistic" or "looks stupid." (not to mention all the other unrealistic stuff in game, like giant demons) The animation is just to get the point across, and the concept behind the mechanic is entirely sound.

    (as an example, I do jujitsu, our greatest hope in a fight is to get sombodys back exposed because even with our bare hands we'll likely have you unconscious, maimed or dead in less than 10 seconds should we succeed.)

    I don't know what you mean by balancing mechanic. If you mean DeS roll cancel, then no. If you mean less damage then no. If you mean no backstab while locked on, then no.

    Again, I'm not saying you are implying those suggested fixes as "balance", I'm just sayin. Sorry if it seems like I'm assuming what you said.

    However, the mechanic mixed with lag is not sound by any means. Its good on paper, not in practice....much like some aspects of jujitsu.

    For instance at the begining of an armbar, I will bite your nipple off. Realism has nothing to do with fantasy games. I sparred with my old boss (jujitsu sensai), was captain of my wrestling team in high school (2 years), wrestled freestyle and greco roman (after high school)took karate classes as a kid, been in dozens of bar fights, and was just an all around wild asz kid. I'm only saying this because I've learned from experience that there is a very good reason the first 2 things taught in a self defense class are:

    1) Put your thumbs in their eyes.

    2) Rip their pen!s right off of the inguinal ligament if you can. I mean seriously, RIP IT OFF.

    Again, there was/is nothing sound about the backstab mechanic in Demon's Souls, or Dark Souls. It looks good on paper and is broke in game. If thats what you and company have said, then ya I agree with you.


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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Animaaal on Sun Jan 20, 2013 1:03 am

    Forum Pirate wrote:The backwards pull because hit detection is client based. Chances are, it was entirely legit on the other players screen. Your "fix" wouldn't actually stop that. Reduced lag would mean its more likely to look proper, but that wouldn't fix it either. The hit detection would need a change to stop that

    (and even then, depending on the change to the system, it could happen anyways. Look at sniper kills in COD to see what I mean. The bullet can miss me on my screen, but if it hits me on theirs I'm dead)

    1) I know that but thanks
    2) I never mentioned a fix other than eliminating lag. I said eliminating lag...that would make the hitbox apprx. 99.99% efficient. But we all know the "elimination" of lag is immpossible with the ps3 and prolly will be with the ps4 as well.
    3) I never, NEVER play FPSs. Rpgs only, so I'll take your word for it.
    4) I HAVE a fix...making thread.....
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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by BLA1NE on Sun Jan 20, 2013 1:34 am

    Animaaal wrote:I don't know what you mean by balancing mechanic.
    Balancing just means that it provides a means to counter another mechanic. Imagine your opponent is wearing full giant's + wolf's ring, and he uses a lunging attack with a DMB'd DGA--he whiffs. If there's no backstab, what do you do? Oh, you're wielding a Bandit's Knife, by the way, you can't even scratch his poise. Do you attack him a few times with your dinky knife until he regains his composure, then you roll away, having dealt a measly few hundred points of damage? He could have dealt around 1000 damage to you on his hit (not to mention possible subsequent hits because you're likely stunlocked), he's left completely defenseless because he missed, and all you can do is a few hundred. Doesn't sound fair--doesn't sound balanced. That's why backstabs are a balancing mechanic. He whiffs, you punish with a backstab that can deal comparable damage.

    The problem arises when the backstab mechanic is broken due to lag...

    (Another great example of balancing mechanics is invaders vs summons. But I digress... silly)

    Animaaal wrote:2) Rip their pen!s right off of the inguinal ligament if you can. I mean seriously, RIP IT OFF.
    I wish I had never read that!


    (By the way, you can give thanks when you're the creator of a thread--only once per thread, I think. It's meant to be used to thank the person who has properly answered your question, if that was the point of your thread.)


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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Forum Pirate on Sun Jan 20, 2013 1:41 am

    I'm saying back stabs are a necessary balance mechanic that needs some work. They do what they're supposed to, they just *seem* do more than they're supposed to. (can't be sure having not asked the developers)

    Reality does have little to do with fantasy games, but the basic principles of melee combat apply in both real life and in game (even though the implimentation is different), thus this is one of the few reality based arguments that stands.

    I don't understand the point of your tangent about self defense, unless its "be as cheap as possible" which, while I agree, isn't an argument against back stabs. (I'm also not sure who you're fighting with, but I seriously doubt you would be anywhere near my nipples as I start an armbar, for a number of wildly off topic reasons, so I'll stop there.)


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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Animaaal on Sun Jan 20, 2013 2:01 am

    BLA1NE wrote:(By the way, you can give thanks when you're the creator of a thread--only once per thread, I think. It's meant to be used to thank the person who has properly answered your question, if that was the point of your thread.)

    Thank you so much for explaining that.

    BLA1NE wrote:.....I wish I had never read that!.....

    Imagine that for the bs animation twisted

    But ya dude I feel ya. Speed up tha dagger by 50-60%???...idk man. Endless conversation right? lol

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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Animaaal on Sun Jan 20, 2013 2:11 am

    Forum Pirate wrote:I'm saying back stabs are a necessary balance mechanic that needs some work. They do what they're supposed to, they just *seem* do more than they're supposed to. (can't be sure having not asked the developers)

    Reality does have little to do with fantasy games, but the basic principles of melee combat apply in both real life and in game (even though the implimentation is different), thus this is one of the few reality based arguments that stands.

    I don't understand the point of your tangent about self defense, unless its "be as cheap as possible" which, while I agree, isn't an argument against back stabs. (I'm also not sure who you're fighting with, but I seriously doubt you would be anywhere near my nipples as I start an armbar, for a number of wildly off topic reasons, so I'll stop there.)

    Ya know I love the souls series backstabs man...i love em.

    I agree 100%. They need fixed. They are worth the investment of man hours to tighten things up before DkS2 release.

    I'm sorry, I didn't mean to tangent. When people bring up the "realness" of combat in this game, I tend to do that I guess.

    Its like this, in a real fight aaaaa REAL fight. Backstabs and cool jujitsu stuff HAPPENS. Kinda like if someone was gonna kid nap my 2 year old, and actually pull off an armbar on me. I get up and severly beat them with said arm...over...and OVER.....AND......ANIMAAAAAAL.

    ...eh em. So ya removing things like backstabs is not soulish. I just hope it gets even more soulish. twisted
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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by hey its andres on Sun Jan 20, 2013 7:45 am

    Backstabs don't kill people, people kill people. Sorry I've been on CNN comments :evil:

    Anyways, I think that BS are a necessary evil and are here to stay.


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    Re: Dark Souls Without Backstabs

    Post by Oh_the_Humanity on Sun Jan 20, 2013 8:28 pm

    I think BS's suck because of lag.
    That said I think they should change the way the BS is done.
    I think it should be a 2 part attack.
    The first part is grabbing the opponents shoulder,
    and the second part would be the BS itself.
    The better your timing is the faster it happens and the harder it is for the one getting BS to shake you off while his hand is grabbing your shoulder. That would be another aspect of it, the one getting BS can shake off the opponent if there to slow between the grab and the BS.
    The grab would explain the "locking in place" and it having to parts to pull off allows for the ability to escape from it.
    I think this would help solve the problem of the BS.
    What do you all think of this idea?

    I turned this into its own thread:

    http://soulswiki.forumsrpg.com/t17228-turning-the-backstab-into-a-2-part-attack#335028


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