Is dark magic really overpowered, or is how people use it overpowered?

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    Re: Is dark magic really overpowered, or is how people use it overpowered?

    Post by jaythibodeau on Fri Mar 15, 2013 7:01 pm

    Forum Pirate wrote:350 is the diminishing returns point. Anything below that is akin to going in with a +15 uchi at 30 dex. Functional, but inefficient. Better off going another way, if possible.

    Heavier weapon stunlock, bs, aren't limited by cast number, have roll attacks and running attacks and power attacks. In short, they have far more variety and the range is a non issue as long range magic is even less accurate than it is at close range.

    One can simply walk sideways, no need to roll, to avoid a hcsm at any range except point blank (we're talking within shortsword reach.) The same can be said of CSS, though its not quite as bad. (also not the case with heavy weapons except at the far edge of their reach) The projectiles should either be wide enough, home well enough or move fast enough that this is risky at best, especially locked off, but as is its pathetic, lock off or not.

    Pursuiers is HCSM done right (one of the ways it could be done right anyways)

    (it would have somewhat higher HP if I optomised the gear)
    I certainly agree. Magic needs more variety, since most of the spells play somewhat of a supporting role to melee, while not being stand alone. Personally, FROM should have added spells with different effects. Instead of just lowering or heightening the damage/uses. For example, what if Dark Bead's damage was majorly lowered, but had the ability to ricochet off of walls? That would certainly make for some interesting scenarios. There are a multitude of ways to balance such things out in the game, it's just the I think that FROM did it wrong.

    Forum Pirate wrote:In short, reliability and variety are the problems with standard magic. Not enough of either, not for the risk involved (in the form of low defense, lower (than optimal for a STR or DEX build without sacrifices) hp and limited casts.
    I completely agree with that! Magic needed a buff, but not in the way that Dark Bead or Pursuers provided. happy


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    Re: Is dark magic really overpowered, or is how people use it overpowered?

    Post by Acarnatia on Fri Mar 15, 2013 8:08 pm

    Most sorcery spells (that dealt damage) were just variations of the same attack until Dark Bead; fire a magical arrow. Everything was a narrow, long-ranged attack. In Dark, the only damaging sorceries (until dark magic) were Soul Arrow, Soul Spear and Homing Soulmass and stronger variations of those. Dark Bead is the only directly damaging sorcery that is a splash, spray or arc besides Homing Soulmass. (which is only a slight variation and usually easy to dodge) Note that pyromancy and miracles both had plenty of aoes, mid-range medium-diameter aoes and a few 'melee' attacks. Sorcery lacked all of those.
    I think spells, items or weapons are overpowered when they are so superior to other gearsets that they win in the rock-paper-scissors game on in far more pairings than others. For example, take the different weapon classes and spells and pair them together, saying that one class beats, loses or draws with certain others. (not including skill and environment as factors) Say that Straight Swords beat Spears and Pyromancy while Straight Swords lose to Ultra Greatswords and Miracles. If these weapons and spells are balanced then the number of weapon/spell classes that each class beats and loses to against should be about even, and those numbers should be close to all the other classes. If an overpowered weapon or spell-something gives a player an advantage over a lot more of these than the others-then it's less about player skill than the item itself and it makes other weapon/spell choices less practical and often less fun. There will always be some degree of this and that's actually okay as long as the difference in advantages between one class and another don't render one so much worse by comparison as to make it useless or necessary to completely outskill everyone else just to make it even decent. Everyone losing to a mage occasionally is not a problem; everyone who is not mage except one or two types losing most or all fights with mages (sometimes regardless of the mage's skill) is.


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    Re: Is dark magic really overpowered, or is how people use it overpowered?

    Post by jaythibodeau on Fri Mar 15, 2013 8:32 pm

    Acarnatia wrote:Most sorcery spells (that dealt damage) were just variations of the same attack until Dark Bead; fire a magical arrow. Everything was a narrow, long-ranged attack. In Dark, the only damaging sorceries (until dark magic) were Soul Arrow, Soul Spear and Homing Soulmass and stronger variations of those. Dark Bead is the only directly damaging sorcery that is a splash, spray or arc besides Homing Soulmass. (which is only a slight variation and usually easy to dodge) Note that pyromancy and miracles both had plenty of aoes, mid-range medium-diameter aoes and a few 'melee' attacks. Sorcery lacked all of those.
    I think spells, items or weapons are overpowered when they are so superior to other gearsets that they win in the rock-paper-scissors game on in far more pairings than others. For example, take the different weapon classes and spells and pair them together, saying that one class beats, loses or draws with certain others. (not including skill and environment as factors) Say that Straight Swords beat Spears and Pyromancy while Straight Swords lose to Ultra Greatswords and Miracles. If these weapons and spells are balanced then the number of weapon/spell classes that each class beats and loses to against should be about even, and those numbers should be close to all the other classes. If an overpowered weapon or spell-something gives a player an advantage over a lot more of these than the others-then it's less about player skill than the item itself and it makes other weapon/spell choices less practical and often less fun. There will always be some degree of this and that's actually okay as long as the difference in advantages between one class and another don't render one so much worse by comparison as to make it useless or necessary to completely outskill everyone else just to make it even decent. Everyone losing to a mage occasionally is not a problem; everyone who is not mage except one or two types losing most or all fights with mages (sometimes regardless of the mage's skill) is.
    Yup. That's practically what I mean. There won't ever really be true balance, but making it close such as that sort of rock-paper-scissors thing is certainly do-able. Dark magic may have added variation, but it did it at the cost of being way too powerful for it's own good.


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    Re: Is dark magic really overpowered, or is how people use it overpowered?

    Post by billionthswine187 on Fri Mar 15, 2013 9:11 pm

    I've had one guy message me about using dark bead in a fight. He said "why would you bring yourself down and use that **** dark magic?" but to be fair in that fight all he did was spam parries whenever I got close so I had to do something else to catch him off guard (couldn't kick since my mage character uses Velkas rapier). Maybe its because I use dark bead every now and then but I don't have an issue with dark magic at all. It's just as easy to dodge as regular magic, except pursuers which you just have to either do a lot of rolling or just back up. They are a lot of things people say are overpowered in Dark Souls, but the bottom line is 90% of those things have a counter to them it just depends on if that person is able to find that counter or not. I don't completely agree with the whole 'It's in the game so deal with it' mentality but there is some merit to that. It's the same you have to deal with BS fishers, gankers, and even hackers it's all part of the game. And for every one of those people there is probably 3 others that will give you a good fight, so you just gotta comb through the ******** and learn to deal with it.


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    Re: Is dark magic really overpowered, or is how people use it overpowered?

    Post by reim0027 on Fri Mar 15, 2013 10:54 pm

    Dark Magic is not OP. IMO, things are only OP if there is not a good counter to them. Dark Magic has counters.

    It forces you to play cautiously, albeit boring at times. I took on a Pursuers/DB/HCMS player last night. I baited his Dark beads and easily dodged them. I was able to easily avoid his Pursuers. I kept a good distance and dodged with minimal problem. If I would have rushed in, I would have been one-shot.

    Anytime you see a Crown of Dusk or a catalyst come out, beware and adjust your strategy. Don't rush in. Stay at a medium distance. Roll to the side for HCSM, DB, CSS, etc. Walk backward to avoid pursuers. They will run out of magic, or realize they will run out of magic, and have to adjust their strategy.


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    Re: Is dark magic really overpowered, or is how people use it overpowered?

    Post by Forum Pirate on Sat Mar 16, 2013 10:57 am

    Acarnatia wrote: everyone who is not mage except one or two types losing most or all fights with mages (sometimes regardless of the mage's skill) is.
    I don't think thats the case though, unless the opponent (ie not the mage) is, shall we say, underdeveloped, or unless there is a significant skill gap in favor of the mage. At low (skill) level pvp it will certainly seem OP (as will WoG, the zweihander, ect.) but at mid to high level pvp its not so anymore. There are enough ways to block, kite, avoid, interrupt or punish it that its no different from anything else, except its more limited.


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    Re: Is dark magic really overpowered, or is how people use it overpowered?

    Post by Rynn on Sat Mar 16, 2013 11:45 am

    The limited casts don't really matter if you use them appropriately however, as a caster, I could easily smash someone for a 1300 damage bead just by waiting for them to attack before casting, for example.
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    Re: Is dark magic really overpowered, or is how people use it overpowered?

    Post by Forum Pirate on Sat Mar 16, 2013 11:54 am

    Yeah. and they can bait such casts (especially with faster weapons) and roll bs you or stay back with a bow, or catch you in a roll r1 to stunlock combo.

    So we're back to basic high level pvp mind games.

    (the removal of the wolf ring would help the stunlock point)


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    Re: Is dark magic really overpowered, or is how people use it overpowered?

    Post by Rynn on Sat Mar 16, 2013 12:58 pm

    Indeed, however here is what I'm getting at, in high level PvP, battles can last either 5 seconds, or 2 to 5 minutes depending on how well the players mess with each other, however spellcasting, while limited, could easily result in the player managing to crush out a decisive victory for one mis-step. Unless magic has it's damage drastically nerfed, the limited casts need to stay because of how they genuinely effect the metagame.
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    Re: Is dark magic really overpowered, or is how people use it overpowered?

    Post by Forum Pirate on Sat Mar 16, 2013 1:06 pm

    I'm all in favor of limited casts, so long as those limits reflect the spells relative effectiveness. Thats why I prefer this system to the mana, easier to balance.

    Its not perfect as is, don't get me wrong, but its better than last time around.


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    Re: Is dark magic really overpowered, or is how people use it overpowered?

    Post by jaythibodeau on Sat Mar 16, 2013 1:20 pm

    I think it might help to compare them by their uses in different situations. For example, close range seems to be magics weak point. Since they can't BS or be as flexible as melee weapons. Yet, one spell practically 'fixed' that problem (overkilled it.)

    (If anyone has anything to add to this, certainly go ahead and do it. Finding out magics main flaws and how to get around them might clear some of the problems.)

    Weapons Advantage
    ------------
    High durability
    Backstabs / Ripostes
    Can be buffed
    Some can be used while blocking
    Can stunlock


    Spells Advantage
    ------------
    Excellent range
    Magic damage (goes through shields)
    Has equipment to increase damage output (sometimes at a cost...)
    Generally high speed
    A large application of uses (although, a small amount of offensive options.)

    I probably didn't cover everything, but oh well. Shrug


    Anyways, if you can take advantage of what magic does best, or the weak points of other weapon classes. That will help it immensely.

    Rynn wrote:The limited casts don't really matter if you use them appropriately however, as a caster, I could easily smash someone for a 1300 damage bead just by waiting for them to attack before casting, for example.
    Sure, you can certainly ration your casts. But that doesn't change the fact that the amount of casts matter.
    Mages can't fire back or at least, not as much as melee classes. I personally find that to be a huge problem with magic.

    I think that magic should have a lot more variety in attack spells, while leaving other spells such as Chameleon to another dedicated form of magic that focuses around support.


    http://soulswiki.forumsrpg.com/t19203-dark-souls-2-mana-vs-limited-castings#375782

    In that thread, I basically said what I hope the magic system turns out to be. As it would make limited casts not a problem, yet limit magic spam to some degree.


    So, what does it come down to when talking about magics biggest flaw? Is it that there's cast limits? Or is it that there aren't enough offensive options? Possibly both?

    Forum Pirate wrote:I'm all in favor of limited casts, so long as those limits reflect the spells relative effectiveness. Thats why I prefer this system to the mana, easier to balance.

    Its not perfect as is, don't get me wrong, but its better than last time around.
    That's certainly true that it's better than last time. But, limited casts can severely affect the way magic is used. Which is why I still support using a regenerating mana bar, but change it's regen speed depending on the percentage of mana used.




    (If my posts are way too long, should I just split them into different sections into spoilers?)


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    Re: Is dark magic really overpowered, or is how people use it overpowered?

    Post by Forum Pirate on Sat Mar 16, 2013 1:34 pm

    Your fine. (intelligent) discussions on mechanics and balance are always long.


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    Re: Is dark magic really overpowered, or is how people use it overpowered?

    Post by jaythibodeau on Sat Mar 16, 2013 1:38 pm

    Oh ok, thanks. I was worried about that. big grin


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    Re: Is dark magic really overpowered, or is how people use it overpowered?

    Post by Acarnatia on Sat Mar 16, 2013 1:43 pm

    I am a dark magic user. I think that if dark magic is at all overpowered, it's only a little bit.
    I remember when I was playing with the 2v2 arena group with Reim in it. He was mid-rolling with a murakumo. Out of the dozens of times I cast pursuers (and I really mean dozens) I hit him something like three times. I did only a little better with dark bead.


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    Re: Is dark magic really overpowered, or is how people use it overpowered?

    Post by Saturday-Saint on Sat Mar 16, 2013 10:36 pm

    How is this even a question?


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    Re: Is dark magic really overpowered, or is how people use it overpowered?

    Post by jaythibodeau on Sun Mar 17, 2013 11:26 am

    Saturday-Saint wrote:How is this even a question?
    What do you mean by that?


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    Re: Is dark magic really overpowered, or is how people use it overpowered?

    Post by Forum Pirate on Sun Mar 17, 2013 12:56 pm

    What he said. He doesn't understand how someone could attempt to separate somethings effectiveness from its (none glitched) use.

    I remarked on it in my first post as well. The 2 are inseparable. Nothing is overpowered in a vacuum. Context (how it can be used) makes it so. If it can't be used to do OP things, its not OP, and vice versa.


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    Re: Is dark magic really overpowered, or is how people use it overpowered?

    Post by jaythibodeau on Sun Mar 17, 2013 1:20 pm

    That certainly makes sense. But, I'm guessing the question is more so about how it can be buffed to extreme measures. Sure, Dark magic by itself is fine (it's unbuffed usage). But with the huge potential it possesses in combination with other things, either being able to combine those things is OP, or one (or more) of the things in the combination are OP.


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    Re: Is dark magic really overpowered, or is how people use it overpowered?

    Post by Forum Pirate on Sun Mar 17, 2013 2:07 pm

    (its not OP, this is purely hypothetical)

    Then its OP, because it can be used at such high power. Wether or not it would be OP un boosted is irrelevant, it can be legitimately boosted so it is OP. Things have to be judged at optimum capacity.

    The boosters aren't OP, css, hcsm, wdb, gcfb, fire tempest, GC, none of these come anywhere near the OP threshold, even while boosted. best in class spells all. That eliminates the boosters as candidates for OP.

    That leaves dark magic as the root problem, the "broken element" in pokemon meta terms. Thus dark magic is OP and should be addressed.

    Again, this was entirely hypothetical, but thats how balancing works. The thing cannot be separated from its use.


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    Re: Is dark magic really overpowered, or is how people use it overpowered?

    Post by Serious_Much on Sun Mar 17, 2013 2:11 pm

    If anything can be used in a way that is overpowered, then it probably is overpowered..

    The obvious flaw in this is when people start saying that certain things are overpowered when in actuality, they're not. I consider dark bead to be this. It is very much the sorcerer's short range shotgun. Useless at further than 3/4 steps away, but powerful when used up close- like it's supposed to be used.

    Other examples are WoG (I mean the range isn't that high, nor is the power and you only get 3 casts of it, it's actually quite a well balanced magic), weapon buffs and GC.


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    Re: Is dark magic really overpowered, or is how people use it overpowered?

    Post by Animaaal on Sun Mar 17, 2013 2:47 pm

    Ghadis_God wrote:Dark Magic isn't overpowered at all, it just makes mages viable in PvP without much skill, while beforehand a dedicated mage had to have an extreme amount of practice and skill to go toe to toe with better PvPers.

    When it came out yes. But if you cant dodge it now, its not the caster lacking skill.

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    jaythibodeau wrote:
    Saturday-Saint wrote:How is this even a question?
    What do you mean by that?

    I love it love it love it!!! cheers Another thread going into “For Ego Links”. This is too easy man. 8)
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    Re: Is dark magic really overpowered, or is how people use it overpowered?

    Post by jaythibodeau on Sun Mar 17, 2013 2:58 pm

    Alrighty. This time, I'm gonna have to section this behemoth into spoilers. silly
    This took me approximately four to five hours to make while Google Chrome decided to crash on me multiple times I think. Prostration
    Spoiler:

    @ Animaaal
    Spoiler:
    Animaaal wrote:
    I love it love it love it!!! Another thread going into “For Ego Links”. This is too easy man.

    Dark Bead and Dark Orb shouldn't have a 16 intelligence requirement, thats the only problem with them imo.
    I was genuinely confused with what he meant by that (till Forum cleared that up for me.)

    The stat requirement is ok (could be slightly heightened), since it's more or less about the output that you get through scaling.

    @ Forum Pirate
    Spoiler:

    Forum Pirate wrote:
    (its not OP, this is purely hypothetical)

    Then its OP, because it can be used at such high power. Wether or not it would be OP un boosted is irrelevant, it can be legitimately boosted so it is OP. Things have to be judged at optimum capacity.

    The boosters aren't OP, css, hcsm, wdb, gcfb, fire tempest, GC, none of these come anywhere near the OP threshold, even while boosted. best in class spells all. That eliminates the boosters as candidates for OP.

    That leaves dark magic as the root problem, the "broken element" in pokemon meta terms. Thus dark magic is OP and should be addressed.

    Again, this was entirely hypothetical, but thats how balancing works. The thing cannot be separated from its use.
    Ok. I mostly agree with that. But that doesn't necessarily clear Dark Bead as being OP. Since it doesn't exactly matter that the damage is different between it being boosted or not, it's that it outclasses most other magic in terms of damage, speed and versatility while at any point of buffability.

    Forum Pirate wrote:
    OBJECTION! Actually serious is right on the money. Thats where raw data comes in. To separate the whining from the legitimately OP stuff.
    That might be something that we'd have to do. Since I tried looking for extensive results for comparing magic damage in general, but found none. The results that I did find though, showed the Dark Bead did VERY high damage.
    As shown in here:
    http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/606312-dark-souls/65193061
    http://soulswiki.forumsrpg.com/t15497-dark-magic-test?highlight=dark+bead

    How is it that Dark Bead isn't considered OP when it fires the fastest, has amazing spread, has more 'durability' than CSS, has a low Int requirement, and does more damage than CSS? (CSS does more damage far away though)

    @ Serious_Much
    Spoiler:

    Serious_Much wrote:
    If anything can be used in a way that is overpowered, then it probably is overpowered..

    The obvious flaw in this is when people start saying that certain things are overpowered when in actuality, they're not. I consider dark bead to be this. It is very much the sorcerer's short range shotgun. Useless at further than 3/4 steps away, but powerful when used up close- like it's supposed to be used.

    Other examples are WoG (I mean the range isn't that high, nor is the power and you only get 3 casts of it, it's actually quite a well balanced magic), weapon buffs and GC.
    I disagree that Dark Bead is useless after being 3/4 steps away. Dark Bead does fine damage at a distance, even while spreading out on a huge radius. While yes, it is supposed to do high damage in close-range. It essentially over kills it though.

    http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/606312-dark-souls/65193061

    In this thread I found, Dark Bead did 712 non-boosted damage to someone in the best possible magic-defending armor with 50 Int.
    Why is it that Dark Bead can hit for so much in a single, fast shot against good armor, yet a much slower melee heavy melee weapon can barely pull that off?
    Something doesn't seem right here when a high-end melee weapon is outclassed by a spell in close-range by far.

    For example, here are two builds that I made with the same defense:
    Magic Defense: http://mmdks.com/1hl1
    Physical Defense: http://mmdks.com/1hl0

    Both defenses are at 288.

    Now, I looked at what kind of AR you might get if you had 50 Str for a Demon's Greataxe.

    I used this to calculate the damage:
    https://mugenmonkey.com/darksouls/weapons

    It was 659, which didn't even include the amount reduced from the armor setup that I made. Although, I'm not sure what formulas go into getting the output of damage depending on what armor the foe is wearing.

    My point is that I personally find it OP because of it's extreme effectiveness.

    On a side note, physical damage is a heck of a lot easier to block / defend against than magic. Since tons of shields have 100% physical resistance, and that the armor set up I made wasn't even the best possible physical defense there is.

    http://soulswiki.forumsrpg.com/t15497-dark-magic-test?highlight=dark+bead
    For further results in this other thread that I found, Dark Bead did insane amounts of damage (with TCC, Bellowing and Crown of Dusk).

    Also, I agree with you though, WoG and the others are fine as they are. happy

    @ Tolvo
    Spoiler:
    Tolvo wrote:
    I do think there is a problem with Dark Magic, but it's a problem that is similar to Elemental weapons. The ability to use them at low levels and invade potentially new and inexperienced players. Normally I see people who are experienced at the game mid rolling or fast rolling through their runs, so DB shouldn't be much of a problem. Plus they can counter it, but its use against inexperience/new players I think is an issue. I don't however hold it to just Dark Magic, I'd say it's more so a side effect of the connection system.
    I certainly agree that that is an issue that needs to be solved in the next game.

    My suggestion for a new pairing system is a bit of a mess, but it's just an idea that I randomly though of at some point. happy

    Personally, I think that there needs to be a system that ranks invaders and hosts depending on SL and equipment, and pairs up similar ranking players (not in all cases though). While yes, having scaling improved can fix this problem. It doesn't help elemental weapons in the slightest.

    My entire suggestion is in the next spoiler, since it's decently long. cheers
    Spoiler:

    Explanation of the suggestion
    Spoiler:

    Let's say invader 'A' has this equipment on:

    http://mmdks.com/1hmw

    And invader 'B' has this equipment:

    http://mmdks.com/1hng

    While the host has this:

    http://mmdks.com/1hn0

    (Just ignore that it automatically fully upgraded the equipment silly )
    Now, lets say for instance that each equipment piece has a 'ranking' number. There'd be two ways to go about this for the ranking number, either the devs rank them on how far the player would have to be to get that equipment piece, or rank them on how effective the equipment piece is. For now, I'll be using the second option.

    The equation for it would kinda go like this:
    ArmorRank+WeaponRank+RingRank+SpellRank+WhateverElseIDidn'tMention+(SL / 4)=Pairing rank
    SLs below 4 are just counted as 1 rank, while if the pairing rank has a decimal, it will be rounded to the nearest whole number.

    (Note: I'm also just making up rankings without too much thought put in)
    I'll also be naming stuff that isn't even used in the example.

    Positive Rank #'s

    -6- RoFaP Ring, Havel's Ring
    -5- Zweihander, Giant Armor,
    -4- Grass Shield, Firestorm, Power Within
    -3- Longbow, black leather armor set stuff, Chain armor set
    -2- Light Crossbow
    -1- Cestus, Longsword
    -0- Pyro Flame, Plank Shield

    Negative Rank #'s

    -Minus 5- Calamity Ring
    -Minus 4- Minuses 4 rank points for each ring slot open. Straight Sword Hilt
    -Minus 3- Broken Straight Sword
    -Minus 2- Dagger
    -Minus 1- Short sword

    Side notes:
    Minimum Rank level is 1

    Weapon ascension paths also affect rank points. But I'm too lazy to make up stuff for that right now.
    Shrug


    Invader A ranking:57
    Invader B ranking:53
    Host ranking:59

    Also, all online items follow the same rules as before. Just replace the word level with rank in this thread:
    http://soulswiki.forumsrpg.com/t14670-all-of-the-exact-level-ranges-matchmaking-formulas-for-the-multiplayer-items

    Anyways, let's say that invader A and B try to invade the host's world. Since they're in extremely close ranges, they'd all connect. But, I'd say that it's more 'balanced out' between the three players (probably not, but I'm sure it could be if I spent a lot of time balancing out rank #'s).
    Flaws
    Spoiler:

    Now, I know what you're thinking.
    What if the invader changes his equipment out?
    While that's certainly a glaring issue with this system, it shouldn't be a problem. Because it will take into account the equipment that you're carrying with you. Not only does that provide incentive for using the Bottomless Box to store things, it also stops people from wanting to be walking armories.

    Another issue might be that it sacrifices simplicity for balance. Which it most definitely does. But, it should only affect random invasions. And not duels.

    Another obvious issue, is how unrefined I currently made this system. Which is something that can be easily be improved, given time. big grin

    I can't really think of any other issues at the moment. But I'm sure there's plenty out there.
    Advantages
    Spoiler:

    If this system was implemented properly, it could 'eliminate' low SL invaders invading with high level equipment.

    This system could also potentially give currently 'useless' equipment pieces a use for once. Such as lowering or heightening your rank level.

    Finally, I feel that this system puts in a good balance to invasions / co-op. Since you'd have a hard time finding someone with overly powered equipment.
    This system that I came up with in like half an hour is obviously flawed, and is going to get me torn to the Abyss and back. Bit it's at least an idea I threw out there to try and help the current invasion system. big grin
    A summarization of my thoughts on Dark Bead
    Spoiler:

    Dark Bead outclasses, out-damages and is more versatile than all other magic. This is evident because of tests that have been done on damage comparison between CSS and Dark Bead.

    -Dark Bead is the fastest spell, yet also the most powerful in terms of damage.
    -Dark Bead has 2 more 'durability' than a spell that is on it's 'level' of damage.
    -Dark Bead has excellent range / spread, which makes it hard to block / dodge.
    -When Dark Bead is blocked, it drains insane stamina.

    In short, Dark Bead is OP.


    Last edited by jaythibodeau on Sun Mar 17, 2013 7:50 pm; edited 3 times in total


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    Re: Is dark magic really overpowered, or is how people use it overpowered?

    Post by Animaaal on Sun Mar 17, 2013 3:03 pm

    Dark Bead and Dark Orb shouldn't have a 16 intelligence requirement, thats the only problem with them imo.
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    Re: Is dark magic really overpowered, or is how people use it overpowered?

    Post by Forum Pirate on Sun Mar 17, 2013 3:18 pm

    No, its just really, really uncommon so they stand out.

    OBJECTION! Actually serious is right on the money. Thats where raw data comes in. To separate the whining from the legitimately OP stuff.


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    Re: Is dark magic really overpowered, or is how people use it overpowered?

    Post by Tolvo on Sun Mar 17, 2013 3:23 pm

    I do think there is a problem with Dark Magic, but it's a problem that is similar to Elemental weapons. The ability to use them at low levels and invade potentially new and inexperienced players. Normally I see people who are experienced at the game mid rolling or fast rolling through their runs, so DB shouldn't be much of a problem. Plus they can counter it, but its use against inexperience/new players I think is an issue. I don't however hold it to just Dark Magic, I'd say it's more so a side effect of the connection system.

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    Re: Is dark magic really overpowered, or is how people use it overpowered?

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