Is dark magic really overpowered, or is how people use it overpowered?

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    Re: Is dark magic really overpowered, or is how people use it overpowered?

    Post by jaythibodeau on Thu Mar 21, 2013 10:37 am

    hey its andres wrote:This is the part of the argument where we just keep going in circles. bounce
    Indeed. Prostration

    Forum Pirate wrote:
    1) things can't be compared in a vaccume when considering balance. I am considering the drawbacks of both. Its the drawbacks that necessitate the boosters. I'm saying the drawbacks of melee (and by extension boosted melee) are negligable and more easily accounted for. Weapon durability is a non issue, stamina management is a very basic skill and always having at least enough stamina for a roll r1 with a heavy weapon is easy, everything (magic) is easy to dodge at range so the additional range of magic doesn't ammount to much.

    That 712 damage is point blank, every bead hits damage, which isn't likely unless there is a skill gap. More realisticlly db hits for maybe 600 damage (fully boosted) if it hits at all, and this is within melee range for the katana. Its fast as hell, no doubt, but its also predictable, only being especially useful up close. The only thing I'd change is the cast number (i'd drop it to 3, for all the same reasons wog only gets 3 casts)

    2) Roll r1's, running attacks and r2's often deal damage equal to or higher than the ar of the weapon.
    I also disagree strongly that a mage is more likely to hit against someone of comparable skill, unless both players suck. It changes weapon to weapon, naturally, but I will clarify that I am factoring over a period of time, not on an individual attack to cast ratio, as that is not how fights play out.

    3) the weaker versions of the spells are so weak as to be useless in pvp (excluding the pyromancy with chaos equivelents and soul spear,) because not only do they suffer all the problems of the higher level magic, they are also horribly weak. heavy soul arrow does like 300 damage to the CSS's 850 and its aoe is smaller. It gets more casts sure, but its even less likely to hit than usual. by the same reasoning everybody should be 1handing a dagger if stamina consumption is an issue.
    I'm saying, in pvp, the situations where magic is better are few, due to a number of factors (limited uses, generally sub par tracking/aoe, few offensive options, limited ability to counter attack, doesn't stunlock, rarely dead angles (so easy to block if the shield can handle it), and gmb/flash sweat/vos will shut it down completely. (which iron flesh does not do to melee)

    4) just reinforcing
    Exactly, as it is now. Magic is severely limited in it's 'options'. Since melee already has the bonus of excellent durability and stamina. Yet magic is limited to a small amount of uses. This makes it a non-option for a main form of combat. For now, it's more or less a supporting role. Or specializes in situations when going up-close for the kill might not be the greatest thing to do.

    I still think that my problem with Dark Bead is that it's damage is too high. Sure, it did 712 damage when all beads hit. But that was when the opponent was wearing the maximum possible amount of magic defense from armor. As with what other people said, Dark Bead isn't entirely 'useful' faraway. Thus, we can assume that it's more or less going to be used in close range combat. Which makes that amount of damage a lot more relevant.

    I'm not entirely sure what you mean by it doing 600 damage fully boosted. That only sounds right when Dark Bead is used from a distance. Which, is still pretty dang good damage (not entirely sure what distance though).

    Also, as you stated before:

    Forum Pirate wrote:
    Nothing is overpowered if its user isn't trying to get a decent effect out of it (and with beatrix catlyst and no damage boosting gear, you're not.) Its the ability to use something in way "x" or to do thing "y" that makes it overpowered.
    Something doesn't seem right here. You're counter point against Dark Bead is that it will realistically hit less and that it wouldn't necessarily be at point blank. However, this statement that I quoted suggests that we need to compare it by how I am comparing them.
    Which is, when Dark Bead is used effectively. Such as managing the range at which you cast it at.

    Ah, so you're comparing who might win the fight over a period of time? Makes sense. Except, when magic is limited by uses. This, suggests that magic is meant to be used scarcely, and effectively. There won't be a 'over a period of time' so to speak when the mage lands a single hit or two. When I compare the skill level of mages and melee classes, I don't compare them having the same abilities. I compare them by comparing what each class might be good at doing with that class by then. For example:
    Mages will need more patience. But less close-combat experience than melee classes (such as learning how to stun-lock or dead-angle).
    Melee classes need to know things such as stamina management more than a mage might need to.

    I'm well aware that some weapons can hit higher on a Roll R1 than their AR. However, I should have stated that I was comparing the damage by considering that it was a regular R1. I apologize for not specifying that. Proper Bow

    Indeed, low level magic suffers terribly from magics other problems. However, you somewhat strengthened my point about using a weaker version of a spell. If one handing a Large Club takes too much stamina, the Dagger does in fact take less stamina to do an attack (with some sacrifices obviously, but my point still stands since it was about how much stamina it consumes).


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    Re: Is dark magic really overpowered, or is how people use it overpowered?

    Post by Forum Pirate on Thu Mar 21, 2013 4:58 pm

    Yeah, but unbuffed the dagger is completely useless. That was my point, but its exaggerated because even boosted heavy soul arrow is useless. I've tried it, with a similar thought process. Its to slow for overwhelming them to be an option (like it is with the buffed dagger) and its no more likely to hit than CSS, and for less than half the damage when it does, and the longer the fight goes the bigger the casters disadvantage (limited castings)

    I specified fully boosted, but even at close range, a side roll (even a mid roll) will put one out of the range of most beads, so even if some hit it will only be 1 or 2, and that varries from 400-800 damage, by my math. (through 350 defense) and it may be fast but it also telegraphs very well allowing time to dodge. (you know magic defense can break 450 on a sl 100 buld right? int/faith hybrid. maidens, big hat, mlgsx2)


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    Re: Is dark magic really overpowered, or is how people use it overpowered?

    Post by jaythibodeau on Thu Mar 21, 2013 8:48 pm

    Ah, ok. That makes sense then. However, I disagree with a burning passion that the Dagger is useless.
    lol!
    I've recently been playing around with a +15 Parrying Dagger. That thing is absolutely treacherous. Joy

    Indeed, that magic defense is good for that level. I was just going off of what that thread said. Which hadn't specified his opponents level. silly Magic damage also goes up with scaling, so I guess it also depends on the differences between levels.
    If they're the same SLs, I'm guessing it wouldn't make too big a difference (if at all?).


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    Re: Is dark magic really overpowered, or is how people use it overpowered?

    Post by Animaaal on Thu Mar 21, 2013 8:53 pm

    ANSWER: No, dark magic is not overpowered. It is when combined with the items people use while using it.
    Also, it depends on the soul level.
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    Re: Is dark magic really overpowered, or is how people use it overpowered?

    Post by jaythibodeau on Thu Mar 21, 2013 11:09 pm

    Animaaal wrote:ANSWER: No, dark magic is not overpowered. It is when combined with the items people use while using it.
    Also, it depends on the soul level.
    I disagree. king


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    Re: Is dark magic really overpowered, or is how people use it overpowered?

    Post by Animaaal on Fri Mar 22, 2013 12:19 am

    jaythibodeau wrote:
    Animaaal wrote:ANSWER: No, dark magic is not overpowered. It is when combined with the items people use while using it.
    Also, it depends on the soul level.
    I disagree. king

    LOL, I can tell.

    I'm tellin though, I dont use CoD, BDCR, TCC, Manus Cat, or Pursuers and I lose fights because of it.

    Dark Bead and Dark Orb are still AWESOME, but not op'd at all, at least when I use em...unless I'm at sl 20 or something of course. Thats why I mentioned pyro earlier.

    DB and DO are very versitle in setting up combos. If that is op well then hell...

    ...moving is op, moving needs nerf plz

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    Re: Is dark magic really overpowered, or is how people use it overpowered?

    Post by jaythibodeau on Fri Mar 22, 2013 1:19 am

    Indeed. Everyone needs to slow walk. Running is for tryhards.


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    Re: Is dark magic really overpowered, or is how people use it overpowered?

    Post by Animaaal on Fri Mar 22, 2013 1:28 am

    interesting, I actually thought you'd agree with me. You do know the stamina drained from blocking Dark Bead is directly related to the damage it does right?
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    Re: Is dark magic really overpowered, or is how people use it overpowered?

    Post by jaythibodeau on Fri Mar 22, 2013 2:10 am

    Really? I never knew that. Shrug


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    Re: Is dark magic really overpowered, or is how people use it overpowered?

    Post by Animaaal on Fri Mar 22, 2013 2:17 am

    jaythibodeau wrote:Really? I never knew that. Shrug

    You dont have to be a smarta$$.

    I'm just saying why is Dark Magic overpowered if the damage and stamina drain not off the charts.

    *And also the ridiculous 16 int requirement for DB and DO? I'll concede that point.
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    Re: Is dark magic really overpowered, or is how people use it overpowered?

    Post by WhatDoesThePendantDo? on Fri Mar 22, 2013 2:22 am

    Animaaal wrote:*And also the ridiculous 16 int requirement for DB and DO? I'll concede that point.

    Da dum-dum magics. :pirat:


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    Re: Is dark magic really overpowered, or is how people use it overpowered?

    Post by Animaaal on Fri Mar 22, 2013 2:23 am

    WhatDoesThePendantDo? wrote:
    Animaaal wrote:*And also the ridiculous 16 int requirement for DB and DO? I'll concede that point.

    Da dum-dum magics. :pirat:

    No thats pyro lol.

    Deez are numba 2.

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    Re: Is dark magic really overpowered, or is how people use it overpowered?

    Post by Animaaal on Fri Mar 22, 2013 4:06 am

    I'd just like to add that, "Yes". We wizards also have our "101s" or "started weapons"....BUT...the phrase,
    "To mock the simplicity" could also be said for the Balder Side Sword, a spear, and maybe even a Claymore, so silly
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    Re: Is dark magic really overpowered, or is how people use it overpowered?

    Post by hey its andres on Fri Mar 22, 2013 4:42 am

    Can I just add that it is stupid when people try to claim that something in the game should be off-limits due to it being "overpowered." I don't mean to sound elitist or anything, but that is part of the struggle of the game. You have to learn to expect and counter anything and everything. When I see someone spamming DB I've learned to doge it, and sometimes I mess up and get killed. It's stupid to think "I would've won if they didn't use DB" because then you might as well say, "I would've won if they didn't attack me."

    It's in the game to be used; it's not a glitch and it's not a hack. It's something FROM put in with the intention of making it powerful up close.

    Thank you.


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    Re: Is dark magic really overpowered, or is how people use it overpowered?

    Post by EeAyEss on Fri Mar 22, 2013 9:26 am

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    Re: Is dark magic really overpowered, or is how people use it overpowered?

    Post by jaythibodeau on Fri Mar 22, 2013 9:33 am

    Animaaal wrote:
    jaythibodeau wrote:Really? I never knew that. Shrug

    You dont have to be a smarta$$.

    I'm just saying why is Dark Magic overpowered if the damage and stamina drain not off the charts.

    *And also the ridiculous 16 int requirement for DB and DO? I'll concede that point.
    Sheesh. I actually didn't know that (hence the shrug).
    What damage does Dark magic equate at it's lowest level anyways?

    Well, I guess counting it at it's lowest level wouldn't be OP anyways. Since, it is, at it's worst. 30 or 40 int with a decent catalyst can get pretty devastating...




    Yeah, we obviously have to deal with whatever we encounter in the game. Since we can't directly control that. But, that doesn't exactly lower that weapons effectiveness, or how it stacks up to other weapons. FROM had the intention of adding it how it is, but I just happen to disagree with them.


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    Re: Is dark magic really overpowered, or is how people use it overpowered?

    Post by hey its andres on Fri Mar 22, 2013 4:31 pm

    jaythibodeau wrote:Yeah, we obviously have to deal with whatever we encounter in the game. Since we can't directly control that. But, that doesn't exactly lower that weapons effectiveness, or how it stacks up to other weapons. FROM had the intention of adding it how it is, but I just happen to disagree with them.

    Well then this becomes an issue of you disagreeing with them; thus, it's not an issue of how overpowered it is.

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    Re: Is dark magic really overpowered, or is how people use it overpowered?

    Post by GoodFangOfCarim on Fri Mar 22, 2013 5:00 pm

    The thing with dark magic is:
    1.Fast
    1.Strong
    3.AoE
    4.Pursuers are homing too, and almost impossible to dodge without walls to cover, or fast roll.

    I was forest hunting a couple of weeks ago, and this guy casted the pursuers on me and I used the trees to my advantage, but the freaking pursuers exploded and got me even after I was taking cover. other spells are not THAT bad.It's like Wrath of the Gods, it's not noobish, unless you spam it, or exclusively use it to make people fall off, and die.
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    Re: Is dark magic really overpowered, or is how people use it overpowered?

    Post by hey its andres on Fri Mar 22, 2013 5:10 pm

    I predominantly use the fast roll for my characters, but it is entirely possible to dodge with the mid roll. All rolls have about the same "invincible" time where you initiate the roll and are immune to all damage. All you have to do is time the roll just right to where the bulk of the damage hits but does nothing. Whenever I see pursuers I run at it and just roll by instinct. It's just something that takes practice...and a lot of death :pirat:

    It's the same as when you learn to parry in online.


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    Re: Is dark magic really overpowered, or is how people use it overpowered?

    Post by jaythibodeau on Fri Mar 22, 2013 5:13 pm

    hey its andres wrote:
    jaythibodeau wrote:Yeah, we obviously have to deal with whatever we encounter in the game. Since we can't directly control that. But, that doesn't exactly lower that weapons effectiveness, or how it stacks up to other weapons. FROM had the intention of adding it how it is, but I just happen to disagree with them.

    Well then this becomes an issue of you disagreeing with them; thus, it's not an issue of how overpowered it is.
    I disagree with that. silly
    As I already said, that doesn't change how effective the weapon is. What I meant by disagreeing with them, is that if they thought that it was a balanced addition to the game, I would disagree with that. Since I think that it is OP.


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    Re: Is dark magic really overpowered, or is how people use it overpowered?

    Post by Emergence on Fri Mar 22, 2013 7:42 pm

    This thread is pretty conclusive by this point.


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