Dark Souls 2, Mana vs. Limited Castings

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    Dark Souls 2, Mana vs. Limited Castings

    Post by Nybbles on Fri Mar 15, 2013 4:59 pm

    so Demon's Souls has a mana system for magic and there are some pretty easy ways to abuse the system thanks to an unlimited supply of spice (the spice must flow). but i did really like that you only needed one copy of a spell and you cast it as many times as you like.

    while in Dark Souls you have a limited number of castings for each spell and if you want more casting, you better get another copy of the spell. it is harder to abuse but goddamn you need allot of spell slots just so you can use one spell a useful number of times and you had to play through the entire game again to get those extra castings, yeesh, what a chore!

    what if Dark Souls Deux was a sort of hybrid system? you only need one copy of each spell because it relies on mana to cast. however, there wouldn't be such a thing as spice because your mana bar would regenerate slowly over time (like stamina only much slower). this might effectively make casting spells work allot like swinging a sword. as you'd have to manage you mana the same way you have to manage your stamina bar.


    i expect to be torn apart for this, but i like it rough so bring it on.
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    Re: Dark Souls 2, Mana vs. Limited Castings

    Post by jaythibodeau on Fri Mar 15, 2013 5:30 pm

    I agree with you that the magic system should change.

    Ever played the game Terraria? I absolutely love the magic system in that. It has the Demon's Souls mana system where each spell has unlimited casts. However, your mana regens depending on how much you used. For example, if you used practically all of it in one go, it'd take a few minutes or so to regen it fully. But, if you used less taxing magic spells or rationed out the bigger ones, it'd regen back fast! big grin
    Essentially, that would punish magic spamming AND allow for more magic in PvE.


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    Re: Dark Souls 2, Mana vs. Limited Castings

    Post by Slayn on Fri Mar 15, 2013 5:37 pm

    I like it. You have my vote.

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    Re: Dark Souls 2, Mana vs. Limited Castings

    Post by Nybbles on Fri Mar 15, 2013 5:42 pm

    jaythibodeau wrote:I agree with you that the magic system should change.

    Ever played the game Terraria? I absolutely love the magic system in that. It has the Demon's Souls mana system where each spell has unlimited casts. However, your mana regens depending on how much you used. For example, if you used practically all of it in one go, it'd take a few minutes or so to regen it fully. But, if you used less taxing magic spells or rationed out the bigger ones, it'd regen back fast! big grin
    Essentially, that would punish magic spamming AND allow for more magic in PvE.

    i haven't played that, but that's pretty much exactly what i would like the next magic system to be like.
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    Re: Dark Souls 2, Mana vs. Limited Castings

    Post by Seignar on Fri Mar 15, 2013 5:49 pm

    I had another idea for a revised Mana System:

    Instead of being able to regenerate Mana by items, Mana would regenerate each time you hit an enemy (and proportionate to the amount of damage). This means that mage builds would still have to get up-close and personal at some points (This was the reason we had limited castings).

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    Re: Dark Souls 2, Mana vs. Limited Castings

    Post by jaythibodeau on Fri Mar 15, 2013 5:52 pm

    Seignar wrote:I had another idea for a revised Mana System:

    Instead of being able to regenerate Mana by items, Mana would regenerate each time you hit an enemy (and proportionate to the amount of damage). This means that mage builds would still have to get up-close and personal at some points (This was the reason we had limited castings).
    That would certainly work too! Since it would also give more usage to the Magic and Enchanted paths.


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    Re: Dark Souls 2, Mana vs. Limited Castings

    Post by Acarnatia on Fri Mar 15, 2013 8:23 pm

    That may suck for pure mages, though. I like your first proposition, jay.
    Another alternative is to just limit the number of mana-refilling items that a character can hold-not get, hold. Divine blessings may not have become such a problem if a character could only hold five of them. (or however many less than 99)


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    Re: Dark Souls 2, Mana vs. Limited Castings

    Post by jaythibodeau on Fri Mar 15, 2013 8:35 pm

    Acarnatia wrote:That may suck for pure mages, though. I like your first proposition, jay.
    Another alternative is to just limit the number of mana-refilling items that a character can hold-not get, hold. Divine blessings may not have become such a problem if a character could only hold five of them. (or however many less than 99)
    That's certainly a way to go about it. Or, they could add a sort of cool-down to using mana regen stuff. For example, you need to wait a minute or two before you can restore it back up again with spice.


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    Re: Dark Souls 2, Mana vs. Limited Castings

    Post by Slarg232 on Fri Mar 15, 2013 11:47 pm

    Personally, I think they should go back to a mana system, have Spice regen only a little bit, but have Enchanted and/or Magic weapons gain mana back per hit.

    Alternatively, add in a new Weapon Path that does this but tone down the scaling in it, so it's not just limited to Sorceries. Pyromancies and Miracles will need love too.


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    Re: Dark Souls 2, Mana vs. Limited Castings

    Post by samster628 on Sat Mar 16, 2013 8:55 am

    Well i do think the mana system should change as it is currently impossible to get a good mage for pvp. by the time you fire off a spell your foe has dodged it and all they have to do is wait until you run out of spells and then you are done for. I kindof like the DS spell system as it means that over time you cant use your really powerful spells and have to switch so a fight where someone is being bombarded with spells becomes easier but it is no fun if your a mage and you have run out of spells and now have to fight a full havels + mask of the father knight in leather armor or something. I say keep the spell system in place but make some spells have unlimited castings but a cooldown time. Make spells be cast faster too. Even fatrollers have time to dodge them.


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    Re: Dark Souls 2, Mana vs. Limited Castings

    Post by Serious_Much on Sat Mar 16, 2013 9:31 am

    I propose a hybrid system, which I thought up a long time ago, so not sure if I'll remember all the ins and outs, but here goes:

    I propose that there be a magic system that uses a mana bar, but there is NO WAY to recharge it. The main advantage of this is that the mana bar will be used by all spells, but means that you can use it all on a single spell- eg soul spear, or disperse it among slightly weaker spells to kill mobs, buff your weapon etc, but unlike the set casts system, it allows more freedom of use to adapt the spell set you have to the specific level you are trying to overcome.

    However, items that increase the length of mana bar and the power of spells should be included also. This inclusion means that still pure casters can be more viable than they are now, but simply spamming and spicing isn't possible and you have to skillfully use the magic resources available to overcome the challenge.

    I think that's all.. Like I said, I can't quite remember it fully


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    Re: Dark Souls 2, Mana vs. Limited Castings

    Post by Forum Pirate on Sat Mar 16, 2013 11:45 am

    The magic isn't good enough for any of that. (most noteably sorcery)

    As is, one is lucky to hit once before running out of casts (pvp), and no recharg, or extremely slow recharge, then leaves one helpless when their bar is inevitably empty. Thats why people spam boosted AoE, they're hoping to overwhelm your ability to dodge, no different than buffed falchion R1 spam, except the mage has limited casts.

    I say leave it alone and limit the availability of spells. No more than 2 stacks of any high level spell.


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    Re: Dark Souls 2, Mana vs. Limited Castings

    Post by jaythibodeau on Sat Mar 16, 2013 1:06 pm

    Forum Pirate wrote:
    As is, one is lucky to hit once before running out of casts (pvp), and no recharg, or extremely slow recharge, then leaves one helpless when their bar is inevitably empty. Thats why people spam boosted AoE, they're hoping to overwhelm your ability to dodge, no different than buffed falchion R1 spam, except the mage has limited casts.
    I suppose so. But what if it went with my first suggestion? So long as the mage doesn't immediately go full out with spells and the such, mana shouldn't be a problem. Limited casts could be used for certain spells though, such as either not using mana, or possibly using a very small amount.


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    Re: Dark Souls 2, Mana vs. Limited Castings

    Post by Forum Pirate on Sat Mar 16, 2013 1:27 pm

    So I can't use CSS without draining a huge chunk and slow regen? Again, in both a pvp and pve environment, its easier to manage better balance by limiting casts based on the spells power, aoe size, tracking, speed and range. (example: 8 gc is fine, 4 great fire ball isn't enough, if you ignore the minimal investment required for the purpose of my example)


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    Re: Dark Souls 2, Mana vs. Limited Castings

    Post by jaythibodeau on Sat Mar 16, 2013 1:33 pm

    Forum Pirate wrote:So I can't use CSS without draining a huge chunk and slow regen? Again, in both a pvp and pve environment, its easier to manage better balance by limiting casts based on the spells power, aoe size, tracking, speed and range. (example: 8 gc is fine, 4 great fire ball isn't enough, if you ignore the minimal investment required for the purpose of my example)
    That's true, but having limited casts means that once you run out, you're basically done as a mage until you can recover em.

    Also, it would depend on how well the regeneration system is implemented. Such as being able to cast one CSS and draining all or your mana, or casting 2 while still having plenty of room left.

    Although, what if a system was implemented that had magic with unlimited casts, but ran off of the durability of the catalyst? That would essentially balance out magic and melee weapons durability differences. Magic would then have to have either noticeable differences in casting speed or have spells with different cool-down times.


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    Re: Dark Souls 2, Mana vs. Limited Castings

    Post by Forum Pirate on Sat Mar 16, 2013 1:57 pm

    Yeah, but that cast limit is the trade off for high power and range. Stamina regenerates really fast, because a melee weapon only works up close.

    The regen thing punishes mages even more than already (and having half decent power requires a pretty big sacrifice as is.) The logic here is that arguably the best way to land a spell is to use a seperate high power spell to force a dodge, and time a second cast to hit as they exit the first or second roll.

    That means, to be effective outside of the basic spell cancel baiting, 2 or more high powered spells in rapid succession are necessary. If mana regenerates fast enough to matter, they have unlimited tries to Ohko you at range and dominate the field. If it doesn't regenerate fast enough to matter, they (logically) only get 2 or 3 shots, at which point they're screwed because, unlike now, they don't have the option to fall back on alternate (if perhaps less powerful) spells.

    Both limited examples are limited, eventually leaving the mage helpless, but its a


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    Re: Dark Souls 2, Mana vs. Limited Castings

    Post by Forum Pirate on Sat Mar 16, 2013 1:57 pm

    question of when and why that differentiates them.


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    Re: Dark Souls 2, Mana vs. Limited Castings

    Post by jaythibodeau on Sat Mar 16, 2013 2:07 pm

    Oh ok. That's makes tons of sense. However, isn't there any other way to help with the casts being limited? I still find that to be a glaring issue. :|

    Using items to regen them wouldn't help since they can be used in bulk
    Regen doesn't work since that system has to be balanced to an extremely well point.

    You've convinced me that limited casts seems to be the way to go, but there has to be some sort of way to get renewable casts while in battle.


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    Re: Dark Souls 2, Mana vs. Limited Castings

    Post by Forum Pirate on Sat Mar 16, 2013 2:15 pm

    Thats what the int/faith scaling weapons would be for. Low to moderate damage, last ditch efforts efforts.

    Its not that mana couldn't work. Mana could work fine in PvE or PvP, but I don't see it working for both. Its a completely different setting. A 100 meter dash compared to a 100 kilometer marathon.


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    Re: Dark Souls 2, Mana vs. Limited Castings

    Post by jaythibodeau on Sat Mar 16, 2013 2:18 pm

    True enough. I suppose the magic system is ok as it is then. It just needs a bit more balance on things such as damage, speed and versatility. happy


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    Re: Dark Souls 2, Mana vs. Limited Castings

    Post by Forum Pirate on Sat Mar 16, 2013 2:34 pm

    In my (reasonably well informed) opinion anyways.

    I'd change it if someone could provide a demonstrably better alternative or reason why I'm wrong, I've just yet to see it.

    The only argument I see often is "magic spam is cheap," which is both wrong (no more cheap than R1 spam,) and has a tendency to be rooted in a inability to deal with or general dislike of magic.


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    Re: Dark Souls 2, Mana vs. Limited Castings

    Post by jaythibodeau on Sat Mar 16, 2013 2:44 pm

    Yup. Even though it's just as bad as stunlocking with R1s, people have no problem with that. It seems like people tend to dislike the more 'ranged' styles of combat though. Hopefully, FROM or someone else might come up with a better solution. Till then, I guess limited casts will have to do.

    Is there any sort of way to 'suggest' things to FROM? Such as writing a letter? I'm just curious about that since it would be a decent way to communicate some of the feedback from the players to the developers.

    Anyways, I'm glad that we had an intelligent discussion, instead of spouting nonsense. That happens to me way too often when discussing things. Bow


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    Re: Dark Souls 2, Mana vs. Limited Castings

    Post by Forum Pirate on Sat Mar 16, 2013 2:49 pm

    We're the sister sight to the japanese wiki, so its possible from sees these conversations.

    You could email them, or post the debate/ link the debate in froms official forums to increase the chances. Be prepared to defend it with solid logic though.


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    Re: Dark Souls 2, Mana vs. Limited Castings

    Post by Seignar on Sat Mar 16, 2013 4:01 pm

    The problem with limited castings is that Magic now has to compensate for it by being stronger. While it does an OK job in PvE, it has caused magic to be insanely OP in PVP due to the fact that magic doesn't have a "ton" of enemies to deal with. However, it still has issues in the PvE world, such as conserving most of their uses against bosses, then letting them all out for an easy win (From experience; by a Soul Spear Wizard). I mean, Magic carries more weight than melee at quicker speeds and farther ranges (with tracking to boot!).

    The only methods to rebalance these issues is to make Magic more constant, while not making them the only means and keeping into the objective of making this game more Melee-oriented. Hence, why I suggested:

    Instead of being
    able to regenerate Mana by items, Mana would regenerate each time you
    hit an enemy (and proportionate to the amount of damage). This means
    that mage builds would still have to get up-close and personal at some
    points (This was the reason we had limited castings).
    A mage would be able to have an ample supply of magic through an entire area, allowing Magic to be nerfed somewhat while still being powerful. It even opens up Magic/Enchanted/Divine/Occult paths to have additional abilities such as adding more Mana per hit.

    Granted, it kills Pure Mages, but they still have Elemental weapon paths to assist them with this and it isn't like Pure Mages don't have standard equipment they can use and upgrade. In addition, Dark Souls has tried to kill Pure Mages via attunement

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    Re: Dark Souls 2, Mana vs. Limited Castings

    Post by Slarg232 on Sat Mar 16, 2013 4:12 pm

    Is that necessarily "right", though?

    Having limited/substandard options in a Role Playing Game?


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