Dark Souls 2, Mana vs. Limited Castings

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    Johnthethird
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    Re: Dark Souls 2, Mana vs. Limited Castings

    Post by Johnthethird on Sat Mar 16, 2013 5:58 pm

    I wouldn't mind keeping it the way it is. I like it I think it works well.
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    Re: Dark Souls 2, Mana vs. Limited Castings

    Post by Forum Pirate on Sat Mar 16, 2013 7:14 pm

    They didn't try to kill pure mages, they simply (and rightly) added something that ment magic comes at a cost (stat points) and prevents one simply using say great soul arrow through the entire game (based on its number of casts, heavy soul arrow would not take a ton of mp, so would be quickly and easily regenerated while still killing everything in 1 hit in PvE using the demons system)

    I believe the "forces mages to wade in" comment was actually in reference to pyromancy, as in pve it is support magic.

    Magic should be limited and it should be stronger. Thats part of what sets it appart, otherwise its really just more melee.

    I've already explained why magic is no OP in PvP, and Skare used a relevant analogy here: http://soulswiki.forumsrpg.com/t19189p15-is-dark-magic-really-overpowered-or-is-how-people-use-it-overpowered


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    Re: Dark Souls 2, Mana vs. Limited Castings

    Post by Slarg232 on Sat Mar 16, 2013 7:39 pm

    I disagree with his assessment on the magic system. Soul Spear and Soul Arrow are really just more of a machine gun versus a sniper rifle; one does more damage but you can pump them out faster and have more ammo, the other wrecks what it hits but you have to be more careful about using them.

    However, what it almost sounded like he meant is getting upgraded spells, such as Soul Arrow, Heavy Soul Arrow, Great Soul Arrow, and Great Heavy Soul Arrow, and I think THIS sort of thing needs to be cut from the game. All it truely does it clog the games memory, and typically no one even uses Heavy or Great Heavy Soul Arrow, as they are far too slow to cast. By the time you have access to them, you can already get Soul Spear anyway, so they are rather superfluous.


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    Re: Dark Souls 2, Mana vs. Limited Castings

    Post by Forum Pirate on Sat Mar 16, 2013 8:13 pm

    That doesn't change the validity of the analogy in reference to this debate. Itf needs to be set appart, or why bother? Its a high damage, long(er) range, high investment alternative to regular melee.

    Your example is an inexact parallel. The machine gun, by virtue of its rate of fire, is very dangerous. Soul arrow, in PvP and NG+, is easily blocked or dodged and its damage is pathetic even when it does hit unblocked. Even in NG its damage against tougher enemies is low, and it doesn't fire quickly enough to make it anywhere near as dangerous as your comparison would imply


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    Re: Dark Souls 2, Mana vs. Limited Castings

    Post by Slarg232 on Sat Mar 16, 2013 8:42 pm

    Forum Pirate wrote:That doesn't change the validity of the analogy in reference to this debate. Itf needs to be set appart, or why bother? Its a high damage, long(er) range, high investment alternative to regular melee.

    Your example is an inexact parallel. The machine gun, by virtue of its rate of fire, is very dangerous. Soul arrow, in PvP and NG+, is easily blocked or dodged and its damage is pathetic even when it does hit unblocked. Even in NG its damage against tougher enemies is low, and it doesn't fire quickly enough to make it anywhere near as dangerous as your comparison would imply

    I meant that just as a way of communicating volume over single powerful shots silly


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    Re: Dark Souls 2, Mana vs. Limited Castings

    Post by Forum Pirate on Sat Mar 16, 2013 9:08 pm

    But the volume is useless when someone with the crest shield (everyone) can sit and safely block all 30 shots. A simple sideways straffe (not a dodge) will ditch the entire soul arrow spell class. If the ai was decent, the silver/black knights could do the same in NG.

    The system itself is fine. Its the cast numbers and effectiveness of the spells that needs to be looked at.

    White dragon breath is another good example of this done properly.

    Its AoE, can be successfully and consistently aimed unlocked, has good range. It has 20 casts.

    Its weak (for magic,) extremely slow, and can't hit air borne enemies (pve).

    This is a useable and dangerous spell, with a number of casts that reflects its high risk, and relative effectiveness.

    With a mana bar, even if the spells are as well balanced as white dragon breath, the over arching bar limits the number of total casts unfairly, as any powerful spell will eat a very big chunk, and the bar itself, unless tied to int, requires more stat investment than the already


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    Re: Dark Souls 2, Mana vs. Limited Castings

    Post by Forum Pirate on Sat Mar 16, 2013 9:10 pm

    hefty investment required as is.


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    Re: Dark Souls 2, Mana vs. Limited Castings

    Post by Forum Pirate on Sat Mar 16, 2013 9:14 pm

    The reason the "very big chunk" thing is an issue is because a miss effectively cripples ones ability to cast other spells, while also leaving the fragile mage very open for punishment, and with a now extremely limited ability to retaliate. (and that ability is limited as is)


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    Re: Dark Souls 2, Mana vs. Limited Castings

    Post by Slarg232 on Sat Mar 16, 2013 9:21 pm

    Actually, WDB is about as powerful as CSS, only.... .50 less Mag Adj than it, if I remember my tests right.

    We both agree on magic needing to be looked at, and for the same reasons. I just wish we didn't have ten copies of the same spell.


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    Re: Dark Souls 2, Mana vs. Limited Castings

    Post by jaythibodeau on Sat Mar 16, 2013 9:27 pm

    That's true. Besides, having a mana bar that regens would just devolve combat into a waiting game. Run out of mana casting tons of high level spells? Just go wait a safe distance away till it fully regens.

    Today, I just got done trying out magic for the first time. And there's only one thing that I have to say about it.

    It's absolutely horrid.

    The damage output is pretty weak, considering it's high investment needs. And the versatility of it's offensive spells are pretty lame. Such as the example with Heavy Soul Arrow and all of the others doing the same exact thing.

    Having cast-limits with magic definitely adds some kind of a 'weight' to casting them. It feels like you have to be careful when you cast. While not having to worry about any major consequences.

    Basically, magic needs to have a more dedicated selection of spells. While making them more 'powerful' so to speak (that doesn't necessarily mean damage wise, it could be stuff like range or have a higher cast limit.)


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    Re: Dark Souls 2, Mana vs. Limited Castings

    Post by Forum Pirate on Sat Mar 16, 2013 9:39 pm

    My CSS averages 1350 damage (unless the enemy is wearing the dusk crown) WDB averages 1000. HCSM hits for 1200. db for up to 2k. (point blank) This all being against the same SL 120 build with no gear change.

    as far as int goes, thats a weak high level spell.

    Spell variety is a problem (the main problem imo,) as is the base cast number and stacking. no need for more than 2 db slots. ever. same with wog, white dragon breath, hcsm, pursuers. it requires time and att slots, but it undermines the point of the limited cast number.)


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    Re: Dark Souls 2, Mana vs. Limited Castings

    Post by Slarg232 on Sat Mar 16, 2013 9:53 pm

    To be fair, you do get five times the casts with WDB than you do CSS. Yes it casts slower, but still.

    And actually Jay, once you get to CSS and even normal SS, you can start one shotting people quite easily in PVP, provided you can catch them when they back off to heal or something similar.


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    Re: Dark Souls 2, Mana vs. Limited Castings

    Post by Forum Pirate on Sat Mar 16, 2013 10:06 pm

    I only hit people with CSS who are really predictable, or who miss with a heavy weapon. In short, if I couldn't have parried the attack, I'm not hitting. Same with HCSM.

    It being comparatively weak is justified, especially considering how much more often it hits unlocked (still, 2 in every 10 hitting is a good day), but its definitely weak by comparison. Even GCFB is stronger.

    With PW or the RTSR tactive though, every high level int spell will 0hko most everybody. Css is boosted to 1900+, hcsm 1800+, ect.


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    Re: Dark Souls 2, Mana vs. Limited Castings

    Post by Slarg232 on Sat Mar 16, 2013 11:16 pm

    My Sorc is just a Catbro, so that's why I tend to hit most of the people I fight silly


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    Re: Dark Souls 2, Mana vs. Limited Castings

    Post by samster628 on Sun Mar 17, 2013 6:58 am

    Basically as a mage (about 75% points on int) i just want it so that your spells have a fighting chance in PvP. Make it so that the spells fire faster and don't have such an obvious sound and animation. EVERYONE dodges and as i say even people who fatroll can do it.
    I can't decide weather an infinite use spell is a good idea or not now as magic users can also get the amazing moonlight greatsword. If you keep limited castings in the next game make sure there are other quality magic wepons like that.
    Also magic spamming IS no cheaper than R1 spamming and people who bow please look in PvP. Many an invader i CSS then as i start to enter the cast animation they start to bow. I get hate mail for something i didn't even mean to do.


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    Re: Dark Souls 2, Mana vs. Limited Castings

    Post by Frank_White on Sun Mar 17, 2013 9:10 am

    I think it might work if there was a system like this:
    You have mana, and there are Mana Flasks. You get 5 Mana flasks along with 5 Estus when you rest at a bonfire. Kindling it once gives you 10 estus & mana flasks, and so on. 20 Mana flasks at max is not too much, like 99 Old Spices was in DeS.
    Also, you will be able to regenerate mana with a reasonable rate if you wear regen gear (you'll have to sacrifice a ring slot, headpiece and maybe something more for that good regen for PvP).
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    Re: Dark Souls 2, Mana vs. Limited Castings

    Post by Serious_Much on Sun Mar 17, 2013 10:01 am

    The only problem I can foresee with the mana bar is if there is regen- which all of us agree should be removed.

    As in demons souls, allow number of spells selected to be based on the dedicated stat (I propose endurance for pyro), and attunement being just mana

    Under the system i outlined on page 1- at like i dunno 20 attunement maybe, you'd cast 7-9 SS, at 40, you could cast 10-14 CSS, or a lot more WDB, would be something stupid like 50-60 casts. Obviously though, this implies HEAVY stat investment, so with the investment, comes the reward of being able to rely on magic more heavily.

    Obviously, this system I'm proposing is very much PvE oriented, but since the balancing in souls is mainly based around PvE noone should have any real problems with this. (and in PvP, doesn't matter how many casts of CSS they have, it's damn easy to dodge regardless, and the mage wouldn't have any good backups post magic anyways)


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    Re: Dark Souls 2, Mana vs. Limited Castings

    Post by jaythibodeau on Sun Mar 17, 2013 11:35 am

    That seems good. However, the main problem with it is still with how easy it is to dodge. Not to mention it only having a few good offensive spells.

    What do you guys think makes magic so easy to dodge?
    I personally think that most people take advantage of invincibility frames and just roll through them. Which is something that definitely needs to be improved. Since one of magic's advantages is that it goes through shields. But, that doesn't exactly matter since everyone can just roll through it.



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    Re: Dark Souls 2, Mana vs. Limited Castings

    Post by Serious_Much on Sun Mar 17, 2013 11:48 am

    That is very true, though I think it's also the fact that magic only goes in a straight line. It's kinda hard to hit someone which someone can dodge by walking/rolling a few steps to the right.. Unfortunately seeing as it's 'soul spear', you can't complain too much that it's straight...

    I agree rolling through is bull, but if that wasn't the problem, the sideways weakness definitely is..


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    Re: Dark Souls 2, Mana vs. Limited Castings

    Post by jaythibodeau on Sun Mar 17, 2013 12:19 pm

    Yep, definitely. It might help if magic had a slight AoE on impact. That would then make unlock shots very good, since you could just aim at the floor.

    Personally, I think that invincibility rolls should be replaced with damage being reduced by half. Since you aren't really 'dodging' if you get hit by it. Then again, that would make getting up from Backstabs a nightmare.
    Prostration

    There's gotta be something that can help magic, it's just that I probably can't think of it. silly


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    Re: Dark Souls 2, Mana vs. Limited Castings

    Post by Forum Pirate on Sun Mar 17, 2013 12:50 pm

    I dissagree. The invisibility simulates dodging, which can happen over, under, around or through attack in combat, not just be escaping the effective range.

    (it would also make spear turtling even more frustrating to deal with)


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    Re: Dark Souls 2, Mana vs. Limited Castings

    Post by jaythibodeau on Sun Mar 17, 2013 12:53 pm

    I'm well aware of that. I'm just coming up with spontaneous ideas to try and think of something that might help. silly


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    Re: Dark Souls 2, Mana vs. Limited Castings

    Post by Serious_Much on Sun Mar 17, 2013 12:58 pm

    jaythibodeau wrote:I'm well aware of that. I'm just coming up with spontaneous ideas to try and think of something that might help. silly

    Don't worry, forum's just an objection machinatron. We may as well refer to him as Mr P. Wright. silly


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    Re: Dark Souls 2, Mana vs. Limited Castings

    Post by Forum Pirate on Sun Mar 17, 2013 1:01 pm

    OBJECTION!!

    I agree with people, if I'm convinced they're right (or at least on to something)


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    Re: Dark Souls 2, Mana vs. Limited Castings

    Post by Serious_Much on Sun Mar 17, 2013 1:07 pm

    I know, I just couldn't resist the reference.. I've been playing through the ace attourney series recently winking


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