Dark Souls 2, Mana vs. Limited Castings

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    Re: Dark Souls 2, Mana vs. Limited Castings

    Post by jaythibodeau on Sun Mar 17, 2013 1:08 pm

    Dang it Forum, I was looking for a Phoenix Wright objection picture. Prostration

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    Re: Dark Souls 2, Mana vs. Limited Castings

    Post by Acarnatia on Sun Mar 17, 2013 1:21 pm

    I think the problem with sorcerers being easy to dodge is largely because they only have one method of attack-a narrow, long-range shot. If they had an attack with the same speed, hitbox and range of a fireball and/or force/emit force, then they would have much more versatility and viability.
    As I before, the problem with having mana-refueling items is because the number of times when there is ninety-nine of them, that might as well be infinite which basically means infinite mana. Limit the number that can be held to ten (or whatever number) and the maximum mana limit actually becomes a limiter because it cannot be refueled almost endlessly.


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    Re: Dark Souls 2, Mana vs. Limited Castings

    Post by Serious_Much on Sun Mar 17, 2013 1:36 pm

    jaythibodeau wrote:Dang it Forum, I was looking for a Phoenix Wright objection picture. Prostration

    If I don't agree with someone, I just argue until we can come to an agreeable compromise (or at least find out what's wright or wrong).
    Just ignore that 'w' I put in there...



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    Re: Dark Souls 2, Mana vs. Limited Castings

    Post by jaythibodeau on Sun Mar 17, 2013 1:46 pm

    While doing that would allow for the choice of getting more uses out of a spell, it doesn't do too much other than that. In fact, it would somewhat make magic even more of a pain than it is now. Since mages would have to deal with restoring mana, and manage their usage of spells even more.

    Serious_Much wrote:
    jaythibodeau wrote:Dang it Forum, I was looking for a Phoenix Wright objection picture. Prostration

    If I don't agree with someone, I just argue until we can come to an agreeable compromise (or at least find out what's wright or wrong).
    Just ignore that 'w' I put in there...


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    Re: Dark Souls 2, Mana vs. Limited Castings

    Post by Serious_Much on Sun Mar 17, 2013 1:55 pm

    http://tinyurl.com/bw4ektp

    Seriously though, how about we return the thread to it's original purpose silly


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    Re: Dark Souls 2, Mana vs. Limited Castings

    Post by jaythibodeau on Sun Mar 17, 2013 2:01 pm

    Serious_Much wrote:http://tinyurl.com/bw4ektp

    Seriously though, how about we return the thread to it's original purpose silly
    Fine. We can finish this later.
    http://i.imgur.com/ZAQVsCU.gif

    Back on topic:
    Acarnatia wrote:
    I think the problem with sorcerers being easy to dodge is largely because they only have one method of attack-a narrow, long-range shot. If they had an attack with the same speed, hitbox and range of a fireball and/or force/emit force, then they would have much more versatility and viability.
    As I before, the problem with having mana-refueling items is because the number of times when there is ninety-nine of them, that might as well be infinite which basically means infinite mana. Limit the number that can be held to ten (or whatever number) and the maximum mana limit actually becomes a limiter because it cannot be refueled almost endlessly.
    jaythibodeau wrote:

    While doing that would allow for the choice of getting more uses out of a spell, it doesn't do too much other than that. In fact, it would somewhat make magic even more of a pain than it is now. Since mages would have to deal with restoring mana, and manage their usage of spells even more.


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    Re: Dark Souls 2, Mana vs. Limited Castings

    Post by Slarg232 on Sun Mar 17, 2013 5:14 pm

    Why do we even need to have Spice in the game?

    Why not have it be like someone has Heavy Armor Stamina regen for the mana, Attunement increases your Mana bar, you can find a ring taht boosts mana regen (Like Cloranthy), and a weapon and/or weapon upgrade that grants mana per hit (Much like Cleaver and similar)?


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    Re: Dark Souls 2, Mana vs. Limited Castings

    Post by Acarnatia on Sun Mar 17, 2013 6:16 pm

    Having one item (such as a ring) that gives or boosts it is one thing. Having an entire (stackable) set that does it will be game-breaking.


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    Re: Dark Souls 2, Mana vs. Limited Castings

    Post by Slarg232 on Sun Mar 17, 2013 6:31 pm

    Acarnatia wrote:Having one item (such as a ring) that gives or boosts it is one thing. Having an entire (stackable) set that does it will be game-breaking.
    Not neccesarily, as you would sacrifice other bonuses for it.

    It's no different then Grass, Cloranthy, and Grass Crest Sheild silly


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    Re: Dark Souls 2, Mana vs. Limited Castings

    Post by Acarnatia on Sun Mar 17, 2013 6:36 pm

    There's a reason the equivalent for Health in Demon's Souls (Blessed) was not included in Dark Souls; it was really broken. Having one item, such as a valuable ring slot may work. Having an item that does that in multiple gear slots that stack will result in the same problems the others have already discussed and near infinite casts.


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    Re: Dark Souls 2, Mana vs. Limited Castings

    Post by Myztyrio on Sun Mar 17, 2013 6:49 pm

    With the bonfire system, it will likely be limited castings.


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    Re: Dark Souls 2, Mana vs. Limited Castings

    Post by FattyOfDoom on Sun Mar 17, 2013 6:58 pm

    Regen would make my Forest Build beastly
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    Re: Dark Souls 2, Mana vs. Limited Castings

    Post by samster628 on Mon Mar 18, 2013 6:13 am

    Basically we need faster magic attacks, slightly better homing of spells and not the obvious wave of the catalyst that basically says "press roll now". Also while munch is theoretically correct in that you could get 10-14 CSS i doubt anyone will really be bothered to go into NG ++++++++++++++.


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    Re: Dark Souls 2, Mana vs. Limited Castings

    Post by Acarnatia on Mon Mar 18, 2013 11:33 am

    If spells do have to be attuned to slots in the same manner, perhaps From can make it so that we only need one scroll to attune as many times as we want as long as we have the slots. (so we don't have to go through multiple playthroughs)


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    Re: Dark Souls 2, Mana vs. Limited Castings

    Post by Nybbles on Tue Mar 19, 2013 12:39 pm

    i think that part of the reason why magic lost so much of it's versatility is due to pyromancy. previously, the pyromancy school of magic were integrated within the sorcery school of magic. having been separated the way that it was, sorcery was left with allot of spells that are essentially variations on a single theme (firing blue bolts of energy in a straight line). not including an equivalent to the talisman of beasts, limits sorcerers even further.

    perhaps pyromancy spells should be reintegrated into the sorcery school of magics or we bring back the talisman of beasts. we wouldn't need dark magic if a sorcerer could cast fire balls without having to equip two separate catalysts at the same time.

    i don't personally like having attunement slots and having to dump a bunch of points into a stat so i can get more castings of a single spell. which also comes with the fact that i have to play through NG+ to get another copy of the spell i already have. there is enough farming in this game already, i don't want to farm copies of spells as well.

    i would prefer a mana system where dumping points into a stat meant that i could get more castings of all the spells i know. of course you would still need attunement slots, but you would need fewer of them because you not wasting slots on multiple copies of one spell … and i wouldn't have to waste several hours to beat the game multiple times so i can have enough copies of the one decent spell so i can cast it a useful number of times.

    not only would this save time and forgo the need to complete yet another play-through. it would also help to add versatility to my caster. instead of two copies of one spell i could have two completely different spells for instance … thats versatility!

    i also like the idea of mana because it would add a different flavor of strategy other than cast the same spell over and over until it runs out or i kill you. but it needs some method of refreshing, or regenerating over time. having a regenerating mana bar i think would be better than spice or manstus (estus but for mana). this would mean that a sorcerer would have to manage their casting the same way that a soldier has to manage how they swing their sword.

    stamina regen was over done in Dark Souls the same way that health regen was over done in Demon's Souls. so i think there should be a limit on how fast mana should regenerate for the same reasons that there should be a limit on how fast stamina can regenerate. mana should regenerate slower than stamina though. you could have as many items as you want in the game that increase regeneration speeds, just don't have them stackable … problem solve'ed.

    this also opens up room for a variety of upgraded paths or tweaks to the existing ones. occult could add a stamina stealing quality or possibly a health stealing one (but not both), bring back crescent weapons but have it steal mana instead of regenerate it over time … and so on.

    if mana isn't your thing and you feel that limited casting is the way to go, how would you feel about having a few basic spells that had unlimited castings? perhaps low damage, unscalable or whatever other limits on them but you could cast them as many times as you liked. though you'd still have to attune it to use it. if a soldier can stab you an unlimited number of times then why can't a sorcerer blast you an unlimitd number of times.

    or perhaps i am looking at this all wrong and magic was never intended to be anything more than supplemental. to used in conjunction with melee and not just by itself.

    EDIT: if nothing else is done, i think the power of sorcery should be tweaked, pyromancy feels right to me while many sorcery spells either feel OP because they OHKO pretty much everything or they are completely useless … and do we really need 4 versions of one spell and two versions of another? no we don't!
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    Re: Dark Souls 2, Mana vs. Limited Castings

    Post by samster628 on Tue Mar 19, 2013 12:52 pm

    Nybbles you have said exactly what i was thinking in a far more organised way than i could have done and other ideas besides. Bravo


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    Re: Dark Souls 2, Mana vs. Limited Castings

    Post by Forum Pirate on Tue Mar 19, 2013 4:05 pm

    Nybbles wrote:i would prefer a mana system where dumping points into a stat meant that i could get more castings of all the spells i know.
    Not all, any. Different things with different implications. You might be able to cast a spell 6 more times than now, but then you can't cast any others at all

    Nybbles wrote:of course you would still need attunement slots, but you would need fewer of them because you not wasting slots on multiple copies of one spell … and i wouldn't have to waste several hours to beat the game multiple times so i can have enough copies of the one decent spell so i can cast it a useful number of times.
    Fixable without mana. Allow any known spell to be attuned multiple times without additional work(probably with a limit of 2 or 3 slots, to prevent 45 casts of wog, as an example)

    Nyybles wrote:this also opens up room for a variety of upgraded paths or tweaks to the existing ones. occult could add a stamina stealing quality or possibly a health stealing one (but not both), bring back crescent weapons but have it steal mana instead of regenerate it over time … and so on.

    if mana isn't your thing and you feel that limited casting is the way to go, how would you feel about having a few basic spells that had unlimited castings? perhaps low damage, unscalable or whatever other limits on them but you could cast them as many times as you liked. though you'd still have to attune it to use it. if a soldier can stab you an unlimited number of times then why can't a sorcerer blast you an unlimitd number of times.

    or perhaps i am looking at this all wrong and magic was never intended to be anything more than supplemental. to used in conjunction with melee and not just by itself.

    EDIT: if nothing else is done, i think the power of sorcery should be tweaked, pyromancy feels right to me while many sorcery spells either feel OP because they OHKO pretty much everything or they are completely useless … and do we really need 4 versions of one spell and two versions of another? no we don't!
    Part of the reason sorcery is so powerful is because its tough to hit with and requires a heavier investment to get optimum effectiveness out of. It takes 10 more stat points for the damage stat and between 7 and 16 points in att. The limited castings also makes it easier to balance individual spells as they are not connected (by a mana bar.) It also adds a heavier element of resourse management (spell casts) to compensate for the higher power that a regenerating mana bar would undermine.

    In essence, its differentiated from melee in a number of ways to give it a unique gameplay aspect, rather than just being a flashy melee.


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    Re: Dark Souls 2, Mana vs. Limited Castings

    Post by Slarg232 on Tue Mar 19, 2013 5:15 pm

    I haven't checked the Wiki or anything, but wasn't the Talisman of Beasts just Velka's Talisman? Haven't gotten that far in Demon's yet.


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    Re: Dark Souls 2, Mana vs. Limited Castings

    Post by Forum Pirate on Tue Mar 19, 2013 5:21 pm

    No. The talismine of beasts scaled with both faith and int and could cast both types of spells.


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    Re: Dark Souls 2, Mana vs. Limited Castings

    Post by Slarg232 on Tue Mar 19, 2013 5:27 pm

    Ah, my bad.

    I can see why that wouldn't be a good thing to have in DkS; Imagine TWoP being used all in conjunction with Pursuers and Force. Couldn't run, couldn't block, couldn't do nuttin.


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    Re: Dark Souls 2, Mana vs. Limited Castings

    Post by Forum Pirate on Tue Mar 19, 2013 5:35 pm

    I'd actually go, in order twop,wog,bf,db no chance to escape for 3500 damage total. At least to do it now, one has to have all 3 catalysts equipped, and swithcing them takes time.


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    Re: Dark Souls 2, Mana vs. Limited Castings

    Post by KrazykevS10 on Wed Mar 20, 2013 1:42 am

    If there is going to be a mana system,nerf the hell out of the more powerful spells.Letting someone cast CSS every 15 seconds is still OP if you know when to cast.Regenerating magic isn't so much a problem but magic should be faster but a lot weaker.Most of the magic douchebaggery is DkS comes from dark bead,souls spear and soulmass doing at least 700 damage on a full hit.I think the power should be more on par with melee or bows,it would make the pure mage more like an archer build,something that requires skill in timing and dodging but is still capable of getting a win.


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    Re: Dark Souls 2, Mana vs. Limited Castings

    Post by samster628 on Wed Mar 20, 2013 4:19 am

    First of all really powerful attacks are useless if you can possibly land a hit. Id rather have faster if less powerful attacks. To be honest i really don't want mana. pretty much every game for a long time uses a mana system and i really don't want dark souls 2 degenerating into your standard kill-a-few-monsters RPG.


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    Re: Dark Souls 2, Mana vs. Limited Castings

    Post by hey its andres on Fri Mar 22, 2013 5:03 pm

    Serious_Much wrote:I propose a hybrid system, which I thought up a long time ago, so not sure if I'll remember all the ins and outs, but here goes:

    I propose that there be a magic system that uses a mana bar, but there is NO WAY to recharge it. The main advantage of this is that the mana bar will be used by all spells, but means that you can use it all on a single spell- eg soul spear, or disperse it among slightly weaker spells to kill mobs, buff your weapon etc, but unlike the set casts system, it allows more freedom of use to adapt the spell set you have to the specific level you are trying to overcome.

    However, items that increase the length of mana bar and the power of spells should be included also. This inclusion means that still pure casters can be more viable than they are now, but simply spamming and spicing isn't possible and you have to skillfully use the magic resources available to overcome the challenge.

    I think that's all.. Like I said, I can't quite remember it fully


    Maybe just tie stamina into the magic system. As it is now, stamina only gives equipment load and rolling to pure casters. If they were given a "stamina bar" type of thing that would definitely work, but I do not want a slow regen as some people are saying. That would only weaken magic even more. With melee you can run up and hack away, so why not make the same option available, to an extenet, to casters? Either that or get rid of it all together, but seeing as I doubt they'd do that...
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    Re: Dark Souls 2, Mana vs. Limited Castings

    Post by samster628 on Fri Mar 22, 2013 5:39 pm

    limited catings work quite well. They mean you can still cast several of each spell (more difficult if you use manus or logans catalyst) but have to use variety and cant get too many really good spells easily. the only thing is you cant land a hit with spells against anyone who knows much about the game. You do have dark magic a feild i am fond of but it can be negated with a timly talisman useage or blocked though dodging it is difficult. Faith: overpowered Sorcery: crap in PvP otherwise useful Pyromancy : fair enough but can be exploited to allow powerful pyromancers attacking low leveled players. Melee is fair enough too.


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