Is dark magic really overpowered, or is how people use it overpowered?

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    Animaaal
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    Re: Is dark magic really overpowered, or is how people use it overpowered?

    Post by Animaaal on Mon Mar 18, 2013 12:47 pm

    Forum Pirate wrote:@ animal, so your preference is a larger number of casts, requiring even heavier investment than usual in ATT? Fine. But that doesn't make the items OP. thats preference, so not actually relevant to wether or not anything is OP.

    I'll be more clear. Mechanically, why bother with magic when buffs and when crossbows can do the same amount of damage and control the battlefield just as well. (seriously, avlyn will hit for 1300 boosted by the leo ring) while having more hp and poise?

    Consider the TCC/Logan's and Dark Bead by themselves for a moment.

    Lets say with TCC and DB (at full impact) your damage is 1000.

    Now, lets say with Logan's catalyst it's 750.

    TCC equals 3 casts for a total potential damage of 3000.

    Logan's equals 6 casts for a total potential damage of 4500.

    This is why, more damage in the long run. But please bear in mind these numbers are apprx, but should be relatively accurate for the sake of my point.

    Since the maximum amount of HP a player has is no where near those numbers, I feel the number of castings is more important, especially when considering my playstyle.

    I say combining certain items makes a caster a little overpowered at times, because their total potential damage could easily reach in excess of 4500, thereby having a huge advantage for achieveing "lucky shots".

    When someone starts playing with combos instead of just castings, they begin to progress their playstyle. For instance:

    -Lock-off DB castings. Deadly, just deadly.
    -Lock-off Black Flame. If one would choose to spam, they can easily decimate builds under 62 poise and midrollers.
    -Combining combustions with Force. This is ridiculous and I've stunlocked people into 2 fully successive 6 hit combos before.
    (1 combo=3 hits for a total of 6 hits)
    -Using these techniques with 45 dexterity can also almost fully ensure some combos will hit, or at the very least partially. Some castings get casting speed bonuses from dex that people are still unaware of.

    Am I saying any of these playstyles/techniques are unbeatable? Absolutely not. I'm just saying I've used them in conjunction with the CoD, BDCR, and TCC before and I felt Godlike. I dont miss as often as I did a year ago, and it has always made me feel op'd, beatable, but op'd none-the-less.

    I'm just saying most people get the impression that magic is op'd when combining these tactics with the aforementioned items.

    Then of course there's the Pursuers-->CSS combo and the ridiculous phantom damage that combo provides.

    I hope this answers your question regarding my interpretation of possible op'd tactics and my owm personal playstyle.

    Oh and BTW, I LOVE the HCSM Avelyn/Dragonslayer Bow combo...it is very fun lol.


    Last edited by Animaaal on Mon Mar 18, 2013 12:53 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : spelling/grammer)
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    Re: Is dark magic really overpowered, or is how people use it overpowered?

    Post by Forum Pirate on Mon Mar 18, 2013 1:43 pm

    What? He didn't help your point at all. That melee damage is so close to unboosted magic is why tho boosters, and dark magic, are necessary. Dark magic so the caster has magic that actually has a reasonable chance at hitting, the boosters to make those hits count. Pursuiers is a HCSM that can't be dodged just by walking sideways and lasts longer, making it more feasible to catch the opponent distracted, and DB is a melee range spell so the winner strategy against the caster isn't "run up, spam r1" because they have an effective punish.

    You didn't pay attention, even limited to the 60 seconds with DMB, I can roll r1 20 or 30 times with a high chance of hitting at least once. Thats 900+ damage all by its self. With an unboosted CSS, I have 2 tries at 850 or 4 at 6-700, and none have even a half decent chance of hitting. Even unbuffed the large club comes close.

    Magic variety is the issue, it always has been, and dark magic helped considerably by creating several new effective punishes and spell combinations


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    Re: Is dark magic really overpowered, or is how people use it overpowered?

    Post by Forum Pirate on Mon Mar 18, 2013 2:00 pm

    to increase the chances of hitting.

    Yor build examples arn't relevant because

    A) I never said anything about AR

    B) AR=/= damage

    C) there isn't a fixed relationship between AR and damage.

    D) there isn't a (known) fixed relationship between Magic adjust and damage.

    Comparing the 2 directly is pointless. I only posted builds in the first place so you had a baseline for the damage numbers I'm posting

    On top of that, your point about CSS is wrong. In an even fight among decent players, Its more likely that the caster runs out a slot or 2 of CSS than that one hits. it needs that extra power so that that one hit (because they only get one) really hurts. The same is true for most magic, even the with the easier to hit with magic (wog/db/GC/BF) one is not likely to hit more than once or twice.


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    Re: Is dark magic really overpowered, or is how people use it overpowered?

    Post by Tolvo on Mon Mar 18, 2013 2:14 pm

    On the idea of viability in certain ways, I feel that Soul Arrow, should have either more casts to it or higher scaling. With the comparison of the effectiveness of bows and the possibility of having 999 arrows that way out damage such spells while also being much faster to use, it makes sorcery in that regard much weaker.

    I love using bows myself, but their use actually really puts down the effectiveness of ranged spells in comparison outside of Soul Spears.

    Soul Arrow is a case in which I would be totally fine with even more casts of that spell, or an increase in casting speed.

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    Re: Is dark magic really overpowered, or is how people use it overpowered?

    Post by Animaaal on Mon Mar 18, 2013 2:15 pm

    @pirate are those 2 posts directed at my post? Sorry, I cant tell.
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    Re: Is dark magic really overpowered, or is how people use it overpowered?

    Post by Forum Pirate on Mon Mar 18, 2013 2:19 pm

    @animal heavy weapons can do the same thing. The large club will hit stun bs for 1600+ unbuffed and no hornets ring. Weapons that stunlock like the zweihander can do 1900+ because they can get in 2 swings first. Even the MSGS will do 1200-1400.

    The spell combo's do more potential damage, naturally, but melee combo's are very likely to end the fight anyways and easier to land.

    The difficulty of landing the magic still makes the boosters not only justified, but necessary, especially considering your playstyle (as you described it) demands a very heavy investment in ATT or the use of the dusk ring, further reducing survivability, so each hit really has to count to compensate.

    Can you make do without it? I'm sure you can. I can make do without armor. Doesn't mean I'm not gimping myself to no benefit.

    No, they were directed at Jay


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    Re: Is dark magic really overpowered, or is how people use it overpowered?

    Post by Animaaal on Mon Mar 18, 2013 2:43 pm

    Forum Pirate wrote:@animal heavy weapons can do the same thing. The large club will hit stun bs for 1600+ unbuffed and no hornets ring. Weapons that stunlock like the zweihander can do 1900+ because they can get in 2 swings first. Even the MSGS will do 1200-1400.

    The spell combo's do more potential damage, naturally, but melee combo's are very likely to end the fight anyways and easier to land.

    The difficulty of landing the magic still makes the boosters not only justified, but necessary, especially considering your playstyle (as you described it) demands a very heavy investment in ATT or the use of the dusk ring, further reducing survivability, so each hit really has to count to compensate.

    Can you make do without it? I'm sure you can. I can make do without armor. Doesn't mean I'm not gimping myself to no benefit.

    No, they were directed at Jay

    I'll totally agree with that. There are plenty of times I thought, "If I had the BDCR on, this fight coulda been over awhile ago." Beacuse like you said melee(in general) is a little easier.

    However, in the end my losses are ALWAYS due to a mistake I made. All magic has ridiculous phantom range, and I exploit it. However, I get over confident and pay the price.

    I still believe using the DWGR makes up for a lack of damage and actually justifies the ability to forgo damage modifiers. The DWGR is still a valuable ring and can do a lot more good than some people realize.

    For instance, everytime I think the BDCR could have won me the fight, I simulanteously think, "Would I have taken a couple hits if I wasn't using the DWGR?"

    In the end like I said, my accuracy is far better than other casters, as it should be, I've had a lot of practice. If the average success rate of landing combustions is 40%, then mine would be 60%so on and so forth.

    I guess it boils down to this for me...if it was a cash tourney, ya I would use the CoD and maybe the BDCR, but outside of that scenario, I think I'm on of the few mages out there that can extend the duration of the fight and not make someone think, "Stupid $#@%ing casting noob!".

    I guess I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you. I'm just saying when I use those items, I feel op. When I started winning most of the time without them, I never felt a need to go back.
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    Re: Is dark magic really overpowered, or is how people use it overpowered?

    Post by Forum Pirate on Mon Mar 18, 2013 3:09 pm

    Animaaal wrote:make someone think, "Stupid $#@%ing casting noob!".
    Thats a problem with their mentality and their problem, not anyone elses. I get the same thing for using a DGM. What they fail to realise is that the mere fact that I hit them with it in the first place is a testament to my skill and/or a indictment on theirs. Not like the katana they're 2hing, where speed and volume mean they're bound to hit eventually. The same is true with most magic.

    Animaaal wrote: I'm just saying when I use those items, I feel op.
    the same could be said by anyone of anything effective. Its a feeling. It isn't rational.

    I can get to feeling the same way stomping in the PW with the dgm. Then I remember that it only feels that way because I'm good and they weren't (at least in our fight) and the illusion is quickly dispelled against good opponents.


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    Re: Is dark magic really overpowered, or is how people use it overpowered?

    Post by Forum Pirate on Mon Mar 18, 2013 3:30 pm

    Animaaal wrote: When I started winning most of the time without them, I never felt a need to go back.
    again, the same could be said of anything. I got so used to midrolling at one point that I was better with it than with the fast roll. Doesn't change that midrolling is gimped. (different discussion, just go with it for the purpose of my analogy, even if you disagree on that point.)


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    Re: Is dark magic really overpowered, or is how people use it overpowered?

    Post by hey its andres on Mon Mar 18, 2013 4:52 pm

    Basically, what this comes down to is magic does way more damage than melee (even buffed), but at the expense of reliability. DB and pursuers are incredibly easy to dodge, even at a close range, which means you cannot spam them in the hope of landing a hit. However, a sorcerer-cleric-pyromancer hybrid can easily overtake the battlefield. WotG with Pursuers or DB is so deadly it's ridiculous. The key is, like Pirate said, variety.


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    Re: Is dark magic really overpowered, or is how people use it overpowered?

    Post by Animaaal on Mon Mar 18, 2013 5:16 pm

    Forum Pirate wrote:... Thats a problem with their mentality and their problem, not anyone elses...

    Of course, but its still caused by something judged. What that something judged is in comparison to their developed opinon regarding it is irrelevent. Its still caused by something that initiated a judgement.

    For instance the Washing Poles phantom damage. It creates the dislike for said weapon, but was most likely caused by the phantom damage. It’s phantom damage is abnormal.

    Forum Pirate wrote:... the same could be said by anyone of anything effective. It’s a feeling. It isn't rational...

    I already know how literal you are, my fault man. The use of the word feeling is synonymous with, deduction, opinion, hypothesis...I'm not confident enough to say theory based on remembrances of game play situations and analogies I could derive from simply looking through the wiki. I should have explained that better.

    Forum Pirate wrote:
    Animaaal wrote: When I started winning most of the time without them, I never felt a need to go back.
    again, the same could be said of anything. I got so used to midrolling at one point that I was better with it than with the fast roll. Doesn't change that midrolling is gimped. (different discussion, just go with it for the purpose of my analogy, even if you disagree on that point.)

    I see your analogy. It’s a very good one. I hope you understand that I’m speaking in fightclub terms. And by fightclubs, I mean the traditional ones with rules. ie no chains, no whatevers, etcetcetcetc. Also, my examples of overpowered through the past few posts are even more relevant to a sl 55 fc for instance.

    Here are the 3 builds I’m remaking, hopefully starting tonight or tomorrow night.

    1-Low level gremlin prankster covenant build.. “Grembo”…Rambo theme lol.

    2-Soul level 55 forum build.

    3-Soul level 200-300 DMB that doesn’t bow and ALL rules are off. I will not backstab a bow, but I will do everything else.

    Hopefully that demonstrates that I’m not implying the uncontrollable meta should change, only that small fightclub type groups can progress the game with a certain mentality and rules imo. I believe there are imbalances in the game, especially when considering the average maximum health is between 1500 and 2000 at sl100-130. I don’t like quick fights, which also develops my conclusions along with several other peoples, and the crazy damage sometimes is a turn off for me, and several other people. I just think that events/fightclubs/tourneys are a little relaxed on the rules is all.

    @Andres

    The only expense of reliablility imo, is cycling through castings. Once your combos are established, the reliability diminishes imo.

    Also, since spells require no stamina consumption, and also do poise damage, they have an inherent advantage.
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    Re: Is dark magic really overpowered, or is how people use it overpowered?

    Post by mugenis4real on Mon Mar 18, 2013 7:20 pm

    While I do hate to just drop in on a "discussion" in progress, I have to ask. Has anyone else tried the Dark Bead + Black Flame combination? It has to be one of the most brutally effective combinations in the game. It really only works if you have 45 Dexterity though, otherwise your opponent has a window to roll through before the Black Flame goes off.

    Even still, a nasty method of murder if there is one.

    P.S. Magic isn't overpowered, it's just better than everything else. Joy

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    Re: Is dark magic really overpowered, or is how people use it overpowered?

    Post by Animaaal on Mon Mar 18, 2013 8:37 pm

    mugenis4real wrote:While I do hate to just drop in on a "discussion" in progress, I have to ask. Has anyone else tried the Dark Bead + Black Flame combination? It has to be one of the most brutally effective combinations in the game. It really only works if you have 45 Dexterity though, otherwise your opponent has a window to roll through before the Black Flame goes off.

    Even still, a nasty method of murder if there is one.

    P.S. Magic isn't overpowered, it's just better than everything else. Joy

    I dont think 45 dex will make a difference with that combo, as a matter of fact I know it wont.
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    Re: Is dark magic really overpowered, or is how people use it overpowered?

    Post by mugenis4real on Mon Mar 18, 2013 9:15 pm

    Ah. I said Black Flame. Meant Great Combustion. This is the third time I've made the same mistake...weird. :drunken:
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    Re: Is dark magic really overpowered, or is how people use it overpowered?

    Post by Vithcommalobsel on Mon Mar 18, 2013 9:23 pm

    This is giving me an idea for a fun build I haven't tried yet.

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    Re: Is dark magic really overpowered, or is how people use it overpowered?

    Post by jaythibodeau on Mon Mar 18, 2013 9:41 pm

    The post is yet again very long, so I'm putting it in spoilers. Shrug
    Spoiler:

    Looks like I'm gonna have to quote myself quite a bit. Since it almost seems to me that we're at the point in a argument where we just keep regurgitating things that we've already said.

    Part 1
    Spoiler:

    Forum Pirate wrote:What? He didn't help your point at all. That melee damage is so close to unboosted magic is why tho boosters, and dark magic, are necessary. Dark magic so the caster has magic that actually has a reasonable chance at hitting, the boosters to make those hits count. Pursuiers is a HCSM that can't be dodged just by walking sideways and lasts longer, making it more feasible to catch the opponent distracted, and DB is a melee range spell so the winner strategy against the caster isn't "run up, spam r1" because they have an effective punish.


    Now, either you're wrong (I'm not flat out saying that. Such a thing is always present in an argument, to be fair. silly) or I'm still not understanding your explanation. :|

    If it's that I'm somehow misinterpreting it, at least hear me out on how I'm interpreting it.
    Shrug
    For example, let's say that we have two water samples from different locations that we're trying to compare. But, we're comparing them only by themselves. Not taking anything such as the glass that it's in, into account (drawbacks, compensations. Blah). If one of the water samples was better than the other, it would be evident (although, I suppose it's not fair to call them both 'water'. Since we're trying to compare two different classes here. silly)
    Now, that's how I view what it's 'supposed' to be.

    But what I got from your example, was that you compared both of the water samples. But added in what the glass did to only one of the samples. When it was also supposed to be by itself.

    If possible, I'd like it if you could put what your point was into layman's terms, since I'm kinda not getting it. happy
    ----------
    I agree with your point about protecting against, "run up, spam r1" with Dark Bead. However, that doesn't change my disapproval about it's (overkill) effectiveness.

    Also, while yes, Pursuers is harder to dodge than just simply walking to the side compared to HCSM. However, it also acts differently than HCSM. For example, it moves slower. And can be dodged by moving backwards. It is also deflected by the Silver Pendant.
    jaythibodeau wrote:
    While yes, it is supposed to do high damage in close-range. It essentially over kills it though.
    jaythibodeau wrote:
    I get the point about weapons being better than others. They should essentially be equal though(I'm well aware that they never will be), considering situations, damage and whatnot.
    jaythibodeau wrote:
    While I do believe that certain weapons should be better in certain situations or against other weapons, they don't necessarily have to be better overall.
    jaythibodeau wrote:
    It's true though, magic is harder to hit with than melee attacks.
    jaythibodeau wrote:
    In this thread I found, Dark Bead did 712 non-boosted damage to someone in the best possible magic-defending armor with 50 Int.
    Why is it that Dark Bead can hit for so much in a single, fast shot against good armor, yet a much slower melee heavy melee weapon can barely pull that off?
    Something doesn't seem right here when a high-end melee weapon is outclassed by a spell in close-range by far.
    jaythibodeau wrote:
    But that doesn't necessarily clear Dark Bead as being OP. Since it doesn't exactly matter that the damage is different between it being boosted or not, it's that it outclasses most other magic in terms of damage, speed and versatility while at any point of buffability.

    Part 2
    Spoiler:

    Forum Pirate wrote:
    Yor build examples arn't relevant because

    A) I never said anything about AR

    B) AR=/= damage

    C) there isn't a fixed relationship between AR and damage.

    D) there isn't a (known) fixed relationship between Magic adjust and damage.

    Comparing the 2 directly is pointless. I only posted builds in the first place so you had a baseline for the damage numbers I'm posting

    On top of that, your point about CSS is wrong. In an even fight among decent players, Its more likely that the caster runs out a slot or 2 of CSS than that one hits. it needs that extra power so that that one hit (because they only get one) really hurts. The same is true for most magic, even the with the easier to hit with magic (wog/db/GC/BF) one is not likely to hit more than once or twice.


    I may be nitpicking, but you essentially DID say the word AR in an earlier post. And even then, AR has to do with damage (although. like you said, we don't know the 'fixed' relationship.) Shrug

    About point C of your post, although there isn't a 'known' fixed relation to the two (I never even said anything in terms that 'connected' the two indefinitely), that doesn't change the fact that damage and AR have to do with each other. Essentially making AR relevant, since the discussion was about damage.

    Where did I compare the two directly? I already said that:
    jaythibodeau wrote:
    I'm well aware that damage=/= AR. You said the word damage, yet it took that much stat investment for 800 AR. And if my knowledge doesn't fail me, Damage is usually lower than the AR on a normal hit.
    I highly disagree that that's how the supposed 'scenario' would play out. Since it's just fabricated from assumptions and generalizations.
    For example, how exactly would the mage fight? I already stated that mages needed to be conservative of shots. Of course the shots are going to miss if the spell is spammed. That is, however, assuming that the mage is going to be dumb and do that. Also, that 'one hit' hits just fine in terms of damage. Since I'm saying that the spell will hit more if he is infact, 'decent' at his class type.

    Yet another point may be that since you said, "The same is true for most magic, even the with the easier to hit with magic (wog/db/GC/BF) one is not likely to hit more than once or twice." Yet again, I disagree. So long as the mage knows what he's doing (AKA not spamming), hitting shouldn't be a problem.

    Unless we can put their skill on agreeable terms / levels, I'm inclined to disagree with you. The word 'decent' doesn't quite describe enough for me when discussing what both players can actually do. Heck, that point even goes against my assumption that the mage would fight conservatively.

    jaythibodeau wrote:
    Dark Bead outclasses, out-damages and is more versatile than all other magic. This is evident because of tests that have been done on damage comparison between CSS and Dark Bead.

    -Dark Bead is the fastest spell, yet also the most powerful in terms of damage.
    -Dark Bead has 2 more 'durability' than a spell that is on it's 'level' of damage.
    -Dark Bead has excellent range / spread, which makes it hard to block / dodge.
    -When Dark Bead is blocked, it drains insane stamina.


    Part 3
    Spoiler:

    Forum Pirate wrote:
    You didn't pay attention, even limited to the 60 seconds with DMB, I can roll r1 20 or 30 times with a high chance of hitting at least once. Thats 900+ damage all by its self. With an unboosted CSS, I have 2 tries at 850 or 4 at 6-700, and none have even a half decent chance of hitting. Even unbuffed the large club comes close.


    jaythibodeau wrote:
    But, limited casts can severely affect the way magic is used. Which is why I still support using a regenerating mana bar,
    Eh, more or less. It's starting to sound like the mana bar might be needed if mages are to be stand-alone classes. However, not every game needs mages. silly
    jaythibodeau wrote:
    I think it might help to compare them by their uses in different situations. For example, close range seems to be magics weak point. Since they can't BS or be as flexible as melee weapons. Yet, one spell practically 'fixed' that problem (overkilled it.)
    jaythibodeau wrote:
    Dark Bead outclasses, out-damages and is more versatile than all other magic. This is evident because of tests that have been done on damage comparison between CSS and Dark Bead.

    -Dark Bead is the fastest spell, yet also the most powerful in terms of damage.
    -Dark Bead has 2 more 'durability' than a spell that is on it's 'level' of damage.
    -Dark Bead has excellent range / spread, which makes it hard to block / dodge.
    -When Dark Bead is blocked, it drains insane stamina.

    jaythibodeau wrote:
    Weapons Advantage
    ------------
    High durability
    Backstabs / Ripostes
    Can be buffed
    Some can be used while blocking
    Can stunlock


    Spells Advantage
    ------------
    Excellent range
    Magic damage (goes through shields)
    Has equipment to increase damage output (sometimes at a cost...)
    Generally high speed
    A large application of uses (although, a small amount of offensive options.)
    jaythibodeau wrote:
    Although, they both have their uses. Since Sunlight Blade offers a major change in DPS, while CSS hits multiple opponents far away with pure magic AR.
    Basically, they're better than each other depending on the situation.
    jaythibodeau wrote:
    While yes, magic certainly has the flaw of low usage... Low durability still shouldn't be a problem though, since if you want to use a lot of spells, you can just use weaker versions of them.
    It seems like one of magics other main weaknesses is that (the red text). Since the 'issue' of low durability is now being discussed more evidently.

    jaythibodeau wrote:
    The slight tracking that spells do have at least helps a little bit. Also, what do you mean that it doesn't fire fast enough? Just use the weaker version of the spell. Or get high Dex (low SLs can't handle that though...) Magic isn't quite so hard to hit with. If you don't want to rely on it's homing ability too much just unlock and fire at em. It also shouldn't be too easily punishable, since the whole point of magic is to keep your distance. It's true though, magic is harder to hit with than melee attacks. But once magic does hit, it's hits hard (often too hard.) Which is why people can afford to use it sparingly.
    jaythibodeau wrote:
    Magic is limited by 'uses' because of how much more effective it is than to go into melee. Since melee can get a whole lot more complicated, while putting you within danger.

    I'd say they're even. Both are good in different situations I suppose.
    I'd say that the statement in blue shouldn't be taken literally. While you've proved that melee has more damage potential than most magic, it doesn't mean that every other factor doesn't matter.

    Although, I suppose I shouldn't say that since you said that melee can hit more often with better accuracy. Besides, while those might be one of the more 'important' factors that go into it.

    I'd rather take into account all of the factors, since we're discussing balance. If something has a slight upper advantage in another area that we aren't counting when comparing them, it shifts the results.
    Part 4
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    Forum Pirate wrote:
    Magic variety is the issue, it always has been, and dark magic helped considerably by creating several new effective punishes and spell combinations


    jaythibodeau wrote:
    Personally, I wish there was more variety with spells. Most of them hit or cast the same way, which might be why they're decently easy to dodge.
    jaythibodeau wrote:
    I think that magic should have a lot more variety in attack spells, while leaving other spells such as Chameleon to another dedicated form of magic that focuses around support.
    jaythibodeau wrote:
    Magic needs more variety, since most of the spells play somewhat of a supporting role to melee, while not being stand alone. Personally, FROM should have added spells with different effects. Instead of just lowering or heightening the damage/uses. For example, what if Dark Bead's damage was majorly lowered, but had the ability to ricochet off of walls? That would certainly make for some interesting scenarios. There are a multitude of ways to balance such things out in the game, it's just the I think that FROM did it wrong.
    jaythibodeau wrote:
    Magic needed a buff, but not in the way that Dark Bead or Pursuers provided.
    jaythibodeau wrote:
    Yes, that's essentially the problem with magic. The fact that it's hard to land.
    jaythibodeau wrote:
    A large application of uses (although, a small amount of offensive options.)
    jaythibodeau wrote:
    I'd say it's how CSS hits that makes it not very viable.
    (I completely agree with what you said about magic needing more variety.)
    jaythibodeau wrote:
    Dark magic may have added variation, but it did it at the cost of being way too powerful for it's own good.
    jaythibodeau wrote:
    So, what does it come down to when talking about magics biggest flaw? Is it that there's cast limits? Or is it that there aren't enough offensive options? Possibly both?
    I wasn't entirely sure if you were trying to somehow prove to me that magic needs more variety (since I already believe that) or if you were just reinforcing that point.


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    Re: Is dark magic really overpowered, or is how people use it overpowered?

    Post by Animaaal on Mon Mar 18, 2013 9:59 pm

    mugenis4real wrote:Ah. I said Black Flame. Meant Great Combustion. This is the third time I've made the same mistake...weird. :drunken:

    Well %$#@ it must be going around. I read it backwards lol. I do the Black Flame --> Dark Bead combo. I've done that twice today, myself.

    Something in the forum air?
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    Re: Is dark magic really overpowered, or is how people use it overpowered?

    Post by Forum Pirate on Tue Mar 19, 2013 4:55 pm

    1) things can't be compared in a vaccume when considering balance. I am considering the drawbacks of both. Its the drawbacks that necessitate the boosters. I'm saying the drawbacks of melee (and by extension boosted melee) are negligable and more easily accounted for. Weapon durability is a non issue, stamina management is a very basic skill and always having at least enough stamina for a roll r1 with a heavy weapon is easy, everything (magic) is easy to dodge at range so the additional range of magic doesn't ammount to much.

    That 712 damage is point blank, every bead hits damage, which isn't likely unless there is a skill gap. More realisticlly db hits for maybe 600 damage (fully boosted) if it hits at all, and this is within melee range for the katana. Its fast as hell, no doubt, but its also predictable, only being especially useful up close. The only thing I'd change is the cast number (i'd drop it to 3, for all the same reasons wog only gets 3 casts)

    2) Roll r1's, running attacks and r2's often deal damage equal to or higher than the ar of the weapon.
    I also disagree strongly that a mage is more likely to hit against someone of comparable skill, unless both players suck. It changes weapon to weapon, naturally, but I will clarify that I am factoring over a period of time, not on an individual attack to cast ratio, as that is not how fights play out.

    3) the weaker versions of the spells are so weak as to be useless in pvp (excluding the pyromancy with chaos equivelents and soul spear,) because not only do they suffer all the problems of the higher level magic, they are also horribly weak. heavy soul arrow does like 300 damage to the CSS's 850 and its aoe is smaller. It gets more casts sure, but its even less likely to hit than usual. by the same reasoning everybody should be 1handing a dagger if stamina consumption is an issue.
    I'm saying, in pvp, the situations where magic is better are few, due to a number of factors (limited uses, generally sub par tracking/aoe, few offensive options, limited ability to counter attack, doesn't stunlock, rarely dead angles (so easy to block if the shield can handle it), and gmb/flash sweat/vos will shut it down completely. (which iron flesh does not do to melee)

    4) just reinforcing


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    Re: Is dark magic really overpowered, or is how people use it overpowered?

    Post by hey its andres on Tue Mar 19, 2013 10:41 pm

    This is the part of the argument where we just keep going in circles. bounce


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    Re: Is dark magic really overpowered, or is how people use it overpowered?

    Post by Animaaal on Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:07 pm

    ^ lol

    This is going in the "For Ego Links" lol
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    Re: Is dark magic really overpowered, or is how people use it overpowered?

    Post by mugenis4real on Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:58 pm

    Animaaal wrote:^ lol

    This is going in the "For Ego Links" lol
    Honestly I would be disappointed if you didn't. silly
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    Re: Is dark magic really overpowered, or is how people use it overpowered?

    Post by Dutchy on Wed Mar 20, 2013 6:15 am

    I'm a bit late to get this in but... Here...


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    Re: Is dark magic really overpowered, or is how people use it overpowered?

    Post by OrnsteinBro on Wed Mar 20, 2013 10:03 am

    It's not overpowered, it's the combination of inconsistency and immense damage that causes problems.

    For one, lag screws up the hitboxes so much that you never know when to dodge.

    Case in point:

    Against an American player I can dodge as they raise their staff on my screen and never get hit.

    Against an Italian player I have to dodge long before they raise their staff on my screen- in fact just a while ago I was fighting an Italian player and I had to dodge so early and such that I got hit point-blank by his Dark Bead casts on my screen to get my invincibility frames in the right bracket. If I dodged as I saw his arm go up I'd get one shotted.

    The lag variance makes everything so counter-intuitive (get hit = no damage, successful dodge = get hit) and inconsistent. It's this fact combined with the massive damage on a hit that makes dark magic seem cheap and frustrating.


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    Re: Is dark magic really overpowered, or is how people use it overpowered?

    Post by hey its andres on Wed Mar 20, 2013 11:15 pm

    Well then it becomes an issue of lag and not an issue of the dark magic. Lag definitely screws up melee as well as magic, lag stabs anyone? Not to mention the fact that piercing weapons and thrusting attacks cant hit you from a mile away.

    BTW Ornstein, your icon is all over my internet porn sites. Make her go away!


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    Re: Is dark magic really overpowered, or is how people use it overpowered?

    Post by Tolvo on Wed Mar 20, 2013 11:19 pm

    Of course.

    Jim Darkmagic is OP as hell, those mage hands.


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