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    Is dark magic really overpowered, or is how people use it overpowered?

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    Post by Animaaal Mon Mar 18, 2013 12:47 pm

    Forum Pirate wrote:@ animal, so your preference is a larger number of casts, requiring even heavier investment than usual in ATT? Fine. But that doesn't make the items OP. thats preference, so not actually relevant to wether or not anything is OP.

    I'll be more clear. Mechanically, why bother with magic when buffs and when crossbows can do the same amount of damage and control the battlefield just as well. (seriously, avlyn will hit for 1300 boosted by the leo ring) while having more hp and poise?

    Consider the TCC/Logan's and Dark Bead by themselves for a moment.

    Lets say with TCC and DB (at full impact) your damage is 1000.

    Now, lets say with Logan's catalyst it's 750.

    TCC equals 3 casts for a total potential damage of 3000.

    Logan's equals 6 casts for a total potential damage of 4500.

    This is why, more damage in the long run. But please bear in mind these numbers are apprx, but should be relatively accurate for the sake of my point.

    Since the maximum amount of HP a player has is no where near those numbers, I feel the number of castings is more important, especially when considering my playstyle.

    I say combining certain items makes a caster a little overpowered at times, because their total potential damage could easily reach in excess of 4500, thereby having a huge advantage for achieveing "lucky shots".

    When someone starts playing with combos instead of just castings, they begin to progress their playstyle. For instance:

    -Lock-off DB castings. Deadly, just deadly.
    -Lock-off Black Flame. If one would choose to spam, they can easily decimate builds under 62 poise and midrollers.
    -Combining combustions with Force. This is ridiculous and I've stunlocked people into 2 fully successive 6 hit combos before.
    (1 combo=3 hits for a total of 6 hits)
    -Using these techniques with 45 dexterity can also almost fully ensure some combos will hit, or at the very least partially. Some castings get casting speed bonuses from dex that people are still unaware of.

    Am I saying any of these playstyles/techniques are unbeatable? Absolutely not. I'm just saying I've used them in conjunction with the CoD, BDCR, and TCC before and I felt Godlike. I dont miss as often as I did a year ago, and it has always made me feel op'd, beatable, but op'd none-the-less.

    I'm just saying most people get the impression that magic is op'd when combining these tactics with the aforementioned items.

    Then of course there's the Pursuers-->CSS combo and the ridiculous phantom damage that combo provides.

    I hope this answers your question regarding my interpretation of possible op'd tactics and my owm personal playstyle.

    Oh and BTW, I LOVE the HCSM Avelyn/Dragonslayer Bow combo...it is very fun lol.


    Last edited by Animaaal on Mon Mar 18, 2013 12:53 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : spelling/grammer)
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    Post by Forum Pirate Mon Mar 18, 2013 1:43 pm

    What? He didn't help your point at all. That melee damage is so close to unboosted magic is why tho boosters, and dark magic, are necessary. Dark magic so the caster has magic that actually has a reasonable chance at hitting, the boosters to make those hits count. Pursuiers is a HCSM that can't be dodged just by walking sideways and lasts longer, making it more feasible to catch the opponent distracted, and DB is a melee range spell so the winner strategy against the caster isn't "run up, spam r1" because they have an effective punish.

    You didn't pay attention, even limited to the 60 seconds with DMB, I can roll r1 20 or 30 times with a high chance of hitting at least once. Thats 900+ damage all by its self. With an unboosted CSS, I have 2 tries at 850 or 4 at 6-700, and none have even a half decent chance of hitting. Even unbuffed the large club comes close.

    Magic variety is the issue, it always has been, and dark magic helped considerably by creating several new effective punishes and spell combinations
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    Post by Forum Pirate Mon Mar 18, 2013 2:00 pm

    to increase the chances of hitting.

    Yor build examples arn't relevant because

    A) I never said anything about AR

    B) AR=/= damage

    C) there isn't a fixed relationship between AR and damage.

    D) there isn't a (known) fixed relationship between Magic adjust and damage.

    Comparing the 2 directly is pointless. I only posted builds in the first place so you had a baseline for the damage numbers I'm posting

    On top of that, your point about CSS is wrong. In an even fight among decent players, Its more likely that the caster runs out a slot or 2 of CSS than that one hits. it needs that extra power so that that one hit (because they only get one) really hurts. The same is true for most magic, even the with the easier to hit with magic (wog/db/GC/BF) one is not likely to hit more than once or twice.
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    Post by Tolvo Mon Mar 18, 2013 2:14 pm

    On the idea of viability in certain ways, I feel that Soul Arrow, should have either more casts to it or higher scaling. With the comparison of the effectiveness of bows and the possibility of having 999 arrows that way out damage such spells while also being much faster to use, it makes sorcery in that regard much weaker.

    I love using bows myself, but their use actually really puts down the effectiveness of ranged spells in comparison outside of Soul Spears.

    Soul Arrow is a case in which I would be totally fine with even more casts of that spell, or an increase in casting speed.
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    Post by Animaaal Mon Mar 18, 2013 2:15 pm

    @pirate are those 2 posts directed at my post? Sorry, I cant tell.
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    Post by Forum Pirate Mon Mar 18, 2013 2:19 pm

    @animal heavy weapons can do the same thing. The large club will hit stun bs for 1600+ unbuffed and no hornets ring. Weapons that stunlock like the zweihander can do 1900+ because they can get in 2 swings first. Even the MSGS will do 1200-1400.

    The spell combo's do more potential damage, naturally, but melee combo's are very likely to end the fight anyways and easier to land.

    The difficulty of landing the magic still makes the boosters not only justified, but necessary, especially considering your playstyle (as you described it) demands a very heavy investment in ATT or the use of the dusk ring, further reducing survivability, so each hit really has to count to compensate.

    Can you make do without it? I'm sure you can. I can make do without armor. Doesn't mean I'm not gimping myself to no benefit.

    No, they were directed at Jay
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    Post by Animaaal Mon Mar 18, 2013 2:43 pm

    Forum Pirate wrote:@animal heavy weapons can do the same thing. The large club will hit stun bs for 1600+ unbuffed and no hornets ring. Weapons that stunlock like the zweihander can do 1900+ because they can get in 2 swings first. Even the MSGS will do 1200-1400.

    The spell combo's do more potential damage, naturally, but melee combo's are very likely to end the fight anyways and easier to land.

    The difficulty of landing the magic still makes the boosters not only justified, but necessary, especially considering your playstyle (as you described it) demands a very heavy investment in ATT or the use of the dusk ring, further reducing survivability, so each hit really has to count to compensate.

    Can you make do without it? I'm sure you can. I can make do without armor. Doesn't mean I'm not gimping myself to no benefit.

    No, they were directed at Jay

    I'll totally agree with that. There are plenty of times I thought, "If I had the BDCR on, this fight coulda been over awhile ago." Beacuse like you said melee(in general) is a little easier.

    However, in the end my losses are ALWAYS due to a mistake I made. All magic has ridiculous phantom range, and I exploit it. However, I get over confident and pay the price.

    I still believe using the DWGR makes up for a lack of damage and actually justifies the ability to forgo damage modifiers. The DWGR is still a valuable ring and can do a lot more good than some people realize.

    For instance, everytime I think the BDCR could have won me the fight, I simulanteously think, "Would I have taken a couple hits if I wasn't using the DWGR?"

    In the end like I said, my accuracy is far better than other casters, as it should be, I've had a lot of practice. If the average success rate of landing combustions is 40%, then mine would be 60%so on and so forth.

    I guess it boils down to this for me...if it was a cash tourney, ya I would use the CoD and maybe the BDCR, but outside of that scenario, I think I'm on of the few mages out there that can extend the duration of the fight and not make someone think, "Stupid $#@%ing casting noob!".

    I guess I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you. I'm just saying when I use those items, I feel op. When I started winning most of the time without them, I never felt a need to go back.
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    Post by Forum Pirate Mon Mar 18, 2013 3:09 pm

    Animaaal wrote:make someone think, "Stupid $#@%ing casting noob!".
    Thats a problem with their mentality and their problem, not anyone elses. I get the same thing for using a DGM. What they fail to realise is that the mere fact that I hit them with it in the first place is a testament to my skill and/or a indictment on theirs. Not like the katana they're 2hing, where speed and volume mean they're bound to hit eventually. The same is true with most magic.

    Animaaal wrote: I'm just saying when I use those items, I feel op.
    the same could be said by anyone of anything effective. Its a feeling. It isn't rational.

    I can get to feeling the same way stomping in the PW with the dgm. Then I remember that it only feels that way because I'm good and they weren't (at least in our fight) and the illusion is quickly dispelled against good opponents.
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    Post by Forum Pirate Mon Mar 18, 2013 3:30 pm

    Animaaal wrote: When I started winning most of the time without them, I never felt a need to go back.
    again, the same could be said of anything. I got so used to midrolling at one point that I was better with it than with the fast roll. Doesn't change that midrolling is gimped. (different discussion, just go with it for the purpose of my analogy, even if you disagree on that point.)
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    Post by hey its andres Mon Mar 18, 2013 4:52 pm

    Basically, what this comes down to is magic does way more damage than melee (even buffed), but at the expense of reliability. DB and pursuers are incredibly easy to dodge, even at a close range, which means you cannot spam them in the hope of landing a hit. However, a sorcerer-cleric-pyromancer hybrid can easily overtake the battlefield. WotG with Pursuers or DB is so deadly it's ridiculous. The key is, like Pirate said, variety.
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    Post by Animaaal Mon Mar 18, 2013 5:16 pm

    Forum Pirate wrote:... Thats a problem with their mentality and their problem, not anyone elses...

    Of course, but its still caused by something judged. What that something judged is in comparison to their developed opinon regarding it is irrelevent. Its still caused by something that initiated a judgement.

    For instance the Washing Poles phantom damage. It creates the dislike for said weapon, but was most likely caused by the phantom damage. It’s phantom damage is abnormal.

    Forum Pirate wrote:... the same could be said by anyone of anything effective. It’s a feeling. It isn't rational...

    I already know how literal you are, my fault man. The use of the word feeling is synonymous with, deduction, opinion, hypothesis...I'm not confident enough to say theory based on remembrances of game play situations and analogies I could derive from simply looking through the wiki. I should have explained that better.

    Forum Pirate wrote:
    Animaaal wrote: When I started winning most of the time without them, I never felt a need to go back.
    again, the same could be said of anything. I got so used to midrolling at one point that I was better with it than with the fast roll. Doesn't change that midrolling is gimped. (different discussion, just go with it for the purpose of my analogy, even if you disagree on that point.)

    I see your analogy. It’s a very good one. I hope you understand that I’m speaking in fightclub terms. And by fightclubs, I mean the traditional ones with rules. ie no chains, no whatevers, etcetcetcetc. Also, my examples of overpowered through the past few posts are even more relevant to a sl 55 fc for instance.

    Here are the 3 builds I’m remaking, hopefully starting tonight or tomorrow night.

    1-Low level gremlin prankster covenant build.. “Grembo”…Rambo theme lol.

    2-Soul level 55 forum build.

    3-Soul level 200-300 DMB that doesn’t bow and ALL rules are off. I will not backstab a bow, but I will do everything else.

    Hopefully that demonstrates that I’m not implying the uncontrollable meta should change, only that small fightclub type groups can progress the game with a certain mentality and rules imo. I believe there are imbalances in the game, especially when considering the average maximum health is between 1500 and 2000 at sl100-130. I don’t like quick fights, which also develops my conclusions along with several other peoples, and the crazy damage sometimes is a turn off for me, and several other people. I just think that events/fightclubs/tourneys are a little relaxed on the rules is all.

    @Andres

    The only expense of reliablility imo, is cycling through castings. Once your combos are established, the reliability diminishes imo.

    Also, since spells require no stamina consumption, and also do poise damage, they have an inherent advantage.
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    Post by mugenis4real Mon Mar 18, 2013 7:20 pm

    While I do hate to just drop in on a "discussion" in progress, I have to ask. Has anyone else tried the Dark Bead + Black Flame combination? It has to be one of the most brutally effective combinations in the game. It really only works if you have 45 Dexterity though, otherwise your opponent has a window to roll through before the Black Flame goes off.

    Even still, a nasty method of murder if there is one.

    P.S. Magic isn't overpowered, it's just better than everything else. Joy
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    Post by Animaaal Mon Mar 18, 2013 8:37 pm

    mugenis4real wrote:While I do hate to just drop in on a "discussion" in progress, I have to ask. Has anyone else tried the Dark Bead + Black Flame combination? It has to be one of the most brutally effective combinations in the game. It really only works if you have 45 Dexterity though, otherwise your opponent has a window to roll through before the Black Flame goes off.

    Even still, a nasty method of murder if there is one.

    P.S. Magic isn't overpowered, it's just better than everything else. Joy

    I dont think 45 dex will make a difference with that combo, as a matter of fact I know it wont.
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    Post by mugenis4real Mon Mar 18, 2013 9:15 pm

    Ah. I said Black Flame. Meant Great Combustion. This is the third time I've made the same mistake...weird. :drunken:
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    Post by Vithcommalobsel Mon Mar 18, 2013 9:23 pm

    This is giving me an idea for a fun build I haven't tried yet.
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    Post by jaythibodeau Mon Mar 18, 2013 9:41 pm

    The post is yet again very long, so I'm putting it in spoilers. Shrug
    Spoiler:
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    Post by Animaaal Mon Mar 18, 2013 9:59 pm

    mugenis4real wrote:Ah. I said Black Flame. Meant Great Combustion. This is the third time I've made the same mistake...weird. :drunken:

    Well %$#@ it must be going around. I read it backwards lol. I do the Black Flame --> Dark Bead combo. I've done that twice today, myself.

    Something in the forum air?
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    Post by Forum Pirate Tue Mar 19, 2013 4:55 pm

    1) things can't be compared in a vaccume when considering balance. I am considering the drawbacks of both. Its the drawbacks that necessitate the boosters. I'm saying the drawbacks of melee (and by extension boosted melee) are negligable and more easily accounted for. Weapon durability is a non issue, stamina management is a very basic skill and always having at least enough stamina for a roll r1 with a heavy weapon is easy, everything (magic) is easy to dodge at range so the additional range of magic doesn't ammount to much.

    That 712 damage is point blank, every bead hits damage, which isn't likely unless there is a skill gap. More realisticlly db hits for maybe 600 damage (fully boosted) if it hits at all, and this is within melee range for the katana. Its fast as hell, no doubt, but its also predictable, only being especially useful up close. The only thing I'd change is the cast number (i'd drop it to 3, for all the same reasons wog only gets 3 casts)

    2) Roll r1's, running attacks and r2's often deal damage equal to or higher than the ar of the weapon.
    I also disagree strongly that a mage is more likely to hit against someone of comparable skill, unless both players suck. It changes weapon to weapon, naturally, but I will clarify that I am factoring over a period of time, not on an individual attack to cast ratio, as that is not how fights play out.

    3) the weaker versions of the spells are so weak as to be useless in pvp (excluding the pyromancy with chaos equivelents and soul spear,) because not only do they suffer all the problems of the higher level magic, they are also horribly weak. heavy soul arrow does like 300 damage to the CSS's 850 and its aoe is smaller. It gets more casts sure, but its even less likely to hit than usual. by the same reasoning everybody should be 1handing a dagger if stamina consumption is an issue.
    I'm saying, in pvp, the situations where magic is better are few, due to a number of factors (limited uses, generally sub par tracking/aoe, few offensive options, limited ability to counter attack, doesn't stunlock, rarely dead angles (so easy to block if the shield can handle it), and gmb/flash sweat/vos will shut it down completely. (which iron flesh does not do to melee)

    4) just reinforcing
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    Post by hey its andres Tue Mar 19, 2013 10:41 pm

    This is the part of the argument where we just keep going in circles. bounce
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    Post by Animaaal Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:07 pm

    ^ lol

    This is going in the "For Ego Links" lol
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    Post by mugenis4real Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:58 pm

    Animaaal wrote:^ lol

    This is going in the "For Ego Links" lol
    Honestly I would be disappointed if you didn't. silly
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    Post by Dutchy Wed Mar 20, 2013 6:15 am

    I'm a bit late to get this in but... Here...
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    Post by OrnsteinBro Wed Mar 20, 2013 10:03 am

    It's not overpowered, it's the combination of inconsistency and immense damage that causes problems.

    For one, lag screws up the hitboxes so much that you never know when to dodge.

    Case in point:

    Against an American player I can dodge as they raise their staff on my screen and never get hit.

    Against an Italian player I have to dodge long before they raise their staff on my screen- in fact just a while ago I was fighting an Italian player and I had to dodge so early and such that I got hit point-blank by his Dark Bead casts on my screen to get my invincibility frames in the right bracket. If I dodged as I saw his arm go up I'd get one shotted.

    The lag variance makes everything so counter-intuitive (get hit = no damage, successful dodge = get hit) and inconsistent. It's this fact combined with the massive damage on a hit that makes dark magic seem cheap and frustrating.
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    Post by hey its andres Wed Mar 20, 2013 11:15 pm

    Well then it becomes an issue of lag and not an issue of the dark magic. Lag definitely screws up melee as well as magic, lag stabs anyone? Not to mention the fact that piercing weapons and thrusting attacks cant hit you from a mile away.

    BTW Ornstein, your icon is all over my internet porn sites. Make her go away!
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    Post by Tolvo Wed Mar 20, 2013 11:19 pm

    Of course.

    Jim Darkmagic is OP as hell, those mage hands.

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