Would you accept a Pistol if....

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    Re: Would you accept a Pistol if....

    Post by Serious_Much on Wed Jun 05, 2013 3:08 pm

    GaryBlevins wrote:If a gun weighed as much as havels greatshield, had complete s*** accuracy, could be heard from a mile away, and took forever to reload, then I might, and I say might, be able to accept a gun in Dark Souls.

    But let's stop beating around the bush and get to the underlying point: If you want to fight with guns, go play Call of Duty or Halo. If you want to fight face to face like a man, play Dark Souls.

    Contrary to popular believe, guns haven't always looked like this:



    We were all thinking along the lines of this when we said guns:



    A pistol made out of ivory- you can't get much more classy than that


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    Re: Would you accept a Pistol if....

    Post by Slarg232 on Wed Jun 05, 2013 3:50 pm



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    Re: Would you accept a Pistol if....

    Post by skarekrow13 on Wed Jun 05, 2013 8:13 pm

    As far as fitting into the theme of Dark Souls, how many areas did countries with guns invade and introduce firearms to? Many had not even got into their own version of a steel age and wham....people with guns bust in.

    Even countries closer in technological advances had the lines blurred. For instance, I've personally seen instructions from a Japanese martial art (won't say which one) that tells the reader the depth they need to swim to avoid getting hurt by bullets. Then how to use various pieces of equipment (nothing remotely like a gun on them) as breathing tubes to stay under water if needed.

    History has a lot of blurring let's not forget. The washing pole and iaito for example (to the best of my understanding) represent different ages and philosophy. Tarkus uses Iron. Other sets are steel.

    Souls games conceptually have always been a blend of different ages. A gun is not that far off.

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    Re: Would you accept a Pistol if....

    Post by skarekrow13 on Thu Jun 13, 2013 1:49 pm

    Since I soooo love fanning flames (please don't actually start a flame war though)....

    I was reading the Edge magazine blog linked by Eminusx here, and it mentions that there are confirmed exploding barrels.  So you know, maybe gunpowder or whatnot

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    Re: Would you accept a Pistol if....

    Post by Soris Ice Goldwing on Thu Jun 13, 2013 1:55 pm

    Gunpowder but not guns. Heck I wouldn't mind the barrels and gunpowder is used for more than just guns.


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    Re: Would you accept a Pistol if....

    Post by skarekrow13 on Thu Jun 13, 2013 2:05 pm

    You're absolutely right.  But it does open the door doesn't it?  I mean the chief complaint is whether it fits the story or not.  Because let's face it, From can balance a gun pretty easily if they want to. There's been several suggestions here that would put a gun in game that was practically useless. So if our question has always been (and it has) does it fit the game?  

    The answer is now, "Yeah. It does."  Most likely anyway.  The barrels don't have to have gunpowder at all.  It could be turtle knight blood that explodes for all I know.  

    So to go back to the original question, my personal preference is that I would rather have guns than gunpowder barrels.  Guns, just look above, can be unique.  They can be classy.  They can add character.  

    Exploding barrels is a video game cliche.  Now don't get me wrong.  I'm not complaining.  It's not like the Souls series has been above cliches the first two times anyway.  My only point is that, from an atmosphere standpoint, an exploding barrel is a lot more disruptive to a medieval style fantasy than a gun prototype.

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    Re: Would you accept a Pistol if....

    Post by Serious_Much on Thu Jun 13, 2013 2:07 pm

    Skare you're forgetting that there were already exploding barrels in souls- there's loads in demon's souls


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    Re: Would you accept a Pistol if....

    Post by Slarg232 on Thu Jun 13, 2013 2:25 pm

    Not to mention that in DkS there are those exploding balls those giants throw at you.


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    Re: Would you accept a Pistol if....

    Post by skarekrow13 on Thu Jun 13, 2013 2:30 pm

    Serious, see allusions in my last paragraph biggrin

    Slarg, those don't truly explode, they appear to be more akin to the jars of oil used in ye olden days (like Marcus Aurelius' forces in Gladiator, starring Russell Crowe now available on DVD).

    I didn't want to dwell much on comparisons to Demons and Dark though since I'm wordy enough as it is posting.  The main point I was making (about DSII) is that a gun prototype is actually MORE plausible than some things that appear to be confirmed for the game already.

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    Re: Would you accept a Pistol if....

    Post by Reaperfan on Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:02 pm

    Hey, so I'm late to the party here.  Just gonna drop my general opinions without having really read any of the recent posts straight face

    Anyway, my initial thoughts are that I'm not opposed to the idea, as long as it sticks with the old-school flintlock/muzzle-loaded era of guns.  That being the case though, I fail to see how guns would be different, gameplay-wise, from crossbows.  Without going into modern developments, they'd still have the "single shot, take a bit to reload" use (excluding Avelyn I guess straight face).  What reason would they have to add them in besides thematics?  If all adding guns to the game would add is "hey look, there's guns in our game" it seems kind of pointless, no?  To reiterate, I'm not against the idea.  I just don't see what it would really add to the game.

    What I CAN see, though, is something along the lines of what Avelyn was.  We don't have Guns as a separate and redundant weapon class, what we have is a singular, unique crossbow that is actually a gun.  Maybe there's a pirate boss you use to make it from a boss soul, or maybe it drops off a particularly unique enemy like the Butcher's Knife does in Dark Souls.  Either way, it would simply be a special and interesting crossbow.  Dark Souls 2's Avelyn, if you will.


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    Re: Would you accept a Pistol if....

    Post by GaryBlevins on Fri Jun 14, 2013 1:03 am

    Can we just let this thread die already? Aside from a small number of people, we don't want guns, of any kind, in dark souls.
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    Re: Would you accept a Pistol if....

    Post by GrinTwist on Fri Jun 14, 2013 1:09 am

    GrinTwist wrote:I just don't think weapons of this nature would go well with the image of Dark Souls, sure they might be able to implement them well but when I think Dark Souls 2 I don't think muskets or a blunderbuss I think magic, swords, spears, and dung pies. I just don't think I'll ever be able to accept Dark Souls with those weapons in the game.

    Also, let me raise another issue about the progression of weapons such as guns and how they conflict within the nature of the Souls games. One of the things that guns represent, at least to me, is the progression of weapons that will one day lead a more advanced society. Advancement for most people is normally a good thing, although I know some may disagree about weapons but that is another subject.

    Look around Dark Souls, the Burg is a place abandoned and covered in moss with it's possible tenants undead hollows, Anor Londo is shrouded in a lie aroused by a mad god who has no intentions of changing anything, and Blight town is an utter wreck. The idea of it is that Dark Souls is not about the progression of things on a scale of making a new weapon it's about surviving a world that may never change because of the amount of darkness that has swallowed it, a gun would represent that things are changing for the better for those that haven't gone hollow yet, a better chance to survive against the horrors of the Tomb or Blight town. Simply put a gun cannot be allowed because it shows that things are changing for the better of humanity. If anything adding a gun would be nothing more than an uplifting feeling for the player and possibly lorewise too.


    I'd like to re-post this here, as I really put it in a duplicate thread to begin with. I'd let the topic die but I always enjoy discussion here on the forums and would like to know if anyone finds a flaw with the logic used here.


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    Re: Would you accept a Pistol if....

    Post by Reaperfan on Fri Jun 14, 2013 2:18 am

    GrinTwist wrote:
    GrinTwist wrote:I just don't think weapons of this nature would go well with the image of Dark Souls, sure they might be able to implement them well but when I think Dark Souls 2 I don't think muskets or a blunderbuss I think magic, swords, spears, and dung pies. I just don't think I'll ever be able to accept Dark Souls with those weapons in the game.

    Also, let me raise another issue about the progression of weapons such as guns and how they conflict within the nature of the Souls games. One of the things that guns represent, at least to me, is the progression of weapons that will one day lead a more advanced society. Advancement for most people is normally a good thing, although I know some may disagree about weapons but that is another subject.

    Look around Dark Souls, the Burg is a place abandoned and covered in moss with it's possible tenants undead hollows, Anor Londo is shrouded in a lie aroused by a mad god who has no intentions of changing anything, and Blight town is an utter wreck. The idea of it is that Dark Souls is not about the progression of things on a scale of making a new weapon it's about surviving a world that may never change because of the amount of darkness that has swallowed it, a gun would represent that things are changing for the better for those that haven't gone hollow yet, a better chance to survive against the horrors of the Tomb or Blight town. Simply put a gun cannot be allowed because it shows that things are changing for the better of humanity. If anything adding a gun would be nothing more than an uplifting feeling for the player and possibly lorewise too.




    I'd like to re-post this here, as I really put it in a duplicate thread to begin with. I'd let the topic die but I always enjoy discussion here on the forums and would like to know if anyone finds a flaw with the logic used here.

    I agree with most of this.  Which is why I once again go back to my "one gun" idea as the only thing that makes sense.  It doesn't make sense for the world as a whole to have them, but say, a boss who uses a "modified crossbow" as a special weapon wouldn't really symbolize any general advancement.  It would be "woah, that guy is really powerful with crossbows" in the same vein as Ornstein is really powerful with Spears or Artorias is really powerful with Greatswords.  It would stay thematically isolated.


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    Re: Would you accept a Pistol if....

    Post by samster628 on Fri Jun 14, 2013 3:00 am

    One gun to rule them all...Prostration

    Thing is when you start to make guns that is a a path there is no going back from. Nobody brings a sword to a gunfight.
    Yes guns have been around for a long time but i think you are seriously overestimating their age. 

    According to out old friend wikipedia (don't get me started on wikipedia) The medieval ages lasted from the 5th to the 15th centuries. Now consider that the earliest firearm was developed in china in the form of a huge bambo tube that fired out some gunpowder and a few projectiles in the 13th century. That is the latter end of the middle ages (and i consider dark souls to be based in the middle ages) so it is unlikley there would be firearms in dark souls but even if there were flintlock pistols (the ones you are showing) were not introduced until the 17th century.

    So in short pistols would be historically inaccurate, game breaking (in terms of turning a swordfight to a shootout) and altogether a lousy idea. The best i could possibly accept is a very early cannon or two that could NOT be handheld. I am sorry but i just think some people are just mad about guns but don't get me started there ether (seriously that's a dark road to walk).


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    Re: Would you accept a Pistol if....

    Post by hey its andres on Fri Jun 14, 2013 3:16 am

    Guns would be cool if they had bayonets that you could fight with. These wouldn't be your typical bayonets because they'd extend at least a meter past the barrel. The gun wouldn't look ridiculous though because you'd take out the barrel, the firing mechanism and all the ammunition. It'd probably look something like this http://www.holmback.se/bayonets/pics/Sweden/Trial/fm1915_1.jpg


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    Re: Would you accept a Pistol if....

    Post by Slarg232 on Fri Jun 14, 2013 3:27 am

    samster628 wrote:One gun to rule them all...Prostration

    Thing is when you start to make guns that is a a path there is no going back from. Nobody brings a sword to a gunfight.
    Yes guns have been around for a long time but i think you are seriously overestimating their age. 

    According to out old friend wikipedia (don't get me started on wikipedia) The medieval ages lasted from the 5th to the 15th centuries. Now consider that the earliest firearm was developed in china in the form of a huge bambo tube that fired out some gunpowder and a few projectiles in the 13th century. That is the latter end of the middle ages (and i consider dark souls to be based in the middle ages) so it is unlikley there would be firearms in dark souls but even if there were flintlock pistols (the ones you are showing) were not introduced until the 17th century.

    So in short pistols would be historically inaccurate, game breaking (in terms of turning a swordfight to a shootout) and altogether a lousy idea. The best i could possibly accept is a very early cannon or two that could NOT be handheld. I am sorry but i just think some people are just mad about guns but don't get me started there ether (seriously that's a dark road to walk).


    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    So what you're saying is that exploding barrels, fire bombs, and EVERYTHING TRYING TO KILL YOU, that someone wouldn't think "Hey, I wonder what would happen if I put a lot of this black stuff into a tube, put a fork in there, and lit it?"

    Also, you do realize that early guns (Like during the Revolution times) were fire once or twice, then pull out your sword to go in for the fight, right? There wouldn't be a "turns it into a shoot out" any more than when/if two Sorcerer or Bow users start fighting each other, and honestly how often does that happen in DkS as it is now? The real answer; it doesn't. Stop being ridiculous.


    As for what they would do that would be different, could be a lot of things; Could deal Smashing damage instead of Peircing (Which is what crossbows do). Could be an instant shot instead of the short delay of the crossbows. They could be separated into two groups; pistols (Reload time affected by dexterity) and Cannons (Carriable, but have to be duel handed and require a high str, but hurt like a melon farmer). They could have a small pushback like the DSGB for keeping space. They could steal children, eat candy, or force someone into a taunt animation.

    I'm still honestly waiting for ANYONE to give a GOOD reason Guns couldn't be in DkSII


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    Re: Would you accept a Pistol if....

    Post by samster628 on Fri Jun 14, 2013 4:58 am

    I JUST TOLD YOU!!!
    IT IS HISTORICALLY INACCURATE. FLINTLOCKS WERE NOT DEVELOPED UNTIL 2 CENTURIES AFTER THE MEDIEVAL AGES (explosives such as cannons have been around for about 2 centuries longer)
    Its one thing to put it all in a tube and fire which as i said happened in the latter stages of the medieval ages but quite another to be able to fire from your hand. Also while yes swords were drawn if you didnt have enough time to reload but you would intend to drop your enemy with the first shot.
    GUNS ARE NOT AS SIMPLE AS SHOVE IT IN A TUBE WITH GUNPOWDER AND LIGHT THE END. With cannons all you really need to go is make sure the tube can hold the blast for a shot or two and not fire the wrong way. with a gun you also need to be able to have it light enough to carry and not so much recoil as to blast the person off their feet. YOU DAFT ... person.
    Bows have style and fit the era guns do not and are much more deadly than bows. What your paragraph about not being different is on about i do not know. That is about how they could be implemented not why they should be. THIS TYPE OF IDEOLOGY IS WHY ... END OF ANNOUNCEMENT


    Last edited by samster628 on Fri Jun 14, 2013 5:17 am; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: Would you accept a Pistol if....

    Post by Halicarnassis on Fri Jun 14, 2013 5:12 am

    Bad bad bad idea. I don't remember myths about Vikings carrying pistols and they had ships far earlier than most back in the day (barring the Greeks traveling across the med cos that was just a party compared to the open seas the Vikings took on). Only the Spanish Conquistadors managed to pull of pistols and swords together with enough elegance epitomized in Dark Souls.
    Besides, do you know how long it takes to load a flint lock pistol or rifle? You have to first brush and clean the pipe, add gun powder and drop in the shot and make sure the flint isn't wet... try shooting that Mirror Knight in the stormy rain they say exists... then aim and take your shot. Is there a critical attack animation for decapitation yet? Cos that's what will happen. 

    As much as I love flint lock pistols (and my folks own a set of them so I've seen them in action) I think this idea is very much reserved for a future series - Pirate Dark Souls anyone?


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    Re: Would you accept a Pistol if....

    Post by Reaperfan on Fri Jun 14, 2013 6:39 am

    samster628 wrote:One gun to rule them all...Prostration

    Thing is when you start to make guns that is a a path there is no going back from. Nobody brings a sword to a gunfight.

    But they did bring Crossbows to swordfights winking


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    Re: Would you accept a Pistol if....

    Post by WaffleGuy on Fri Jun 14, 2013 8:50 am

    IDK about the guns, might work like the crossbows a bit maybe.
    But I'd just LOVE a friggin PIRATE COVENANT! :razz:


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    Re: Would you accept a Pistol if....

    Post by skarekrow13 on Fri Jun 14, 2013 10:24 am

    Let's not get too heated.  Again, the question is "would you accept it" or basically, "do you like the idea"

    I would suggest again that we take mechanics of in game use off the table, that's From's decision and burden to balance it.

    Let's not discuss the history of the Earth and turn that into debate because we only need to be as historically and scientifically accurate as say; a half spider, all woman lava spewing monster with great
    Spoiler:
    legs

    I only revived the thread as a laugh since and to casually add that it's my opinion exploding barrels are atmosphere changing as well but we've learned to love the game anyway.

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    Re: Would you accept a Pistol if....

    Post by samster628 on Fri Jun 14, 2013 12:46 pm

    My point is no i would not accept pistols and i was rather irritated you completely disregarded my point the first time. Under your logic perhaps we should have ray guns in dark souls or have light sabers in call of duty. No need to be scientifically correct but dark souls is focused on the medieval ages with the twist of magic which was in lore at the time. To throw in something which so blatantly doesn't belong is an abomination in my opinion.
    Apologies if i offended you but read the disclaimer. No offence meant. Everyone has the right to an opinion, just in this case mine happens to be to completely disagree with guns. And jet packs etc.


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    Re: Would you accept a Pistol if....

    Post by skarekrow13 on Fri Jun 14, 2013 1:34 pm

    No offense taken Samster. And actually chalk some misinterpretation up on my end.  I wasn't sure if you were saying you personally wouldn't want them in for the reasons you specified, or if you were saying it's a patently ridiculous idea to even consider them because of the reasons you specified.  Those are completely different arguments, one of which has a counterpoint (that I stated) while the other is irrefutable as it's opinion.

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    Re: Would you accept a Pistol if....

    Post by Reaperfan on Fri Jun 14, 2013 4:03 pm

    skarekrow13 wrote:Let's not get too heated.  Again, the question is "would you accept it" or basically, "do you like the idea"

    I would suggest again that we take mechanics of in game use off the table, that's From's decision and burden to balance it.

    Let's not discuss the history of the Earth and turn that into debate because we only need to be as historically and scientifically accurate as say; a half spider, all woman lava spewing monster with great
    Spoiler:
    legs

    Well that isn't very fair to be honest pony02

    What if how it would work as a game mechanic or how it ties in to historical periods on Earth are part of our reasoning behind our opinion, or even the core influence behind it?


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    Re: Would you accept a Pistol if....

    Post by skarekrow13 on Fri Jun 14, 2013 4:18 pm

    See my last post (right above yours).  It makes sense to say "I don't like it because it seems out of place to me because of...." and that could be historical reasons, designs, etc.  The cautionary tale I tried to warn on was the possibility of it turning into a "That's impossible because they come from different eras" argument since we already have blended eras in both Souls games and From could put in a T-Rex flying an F-14 while eating a chimichanga if they really wanted to.  Again, I can see an argument for that being a touch out of place in the game but the historical, physical and dietary inaccuracies of that example are irrelevant of what is possible in a video game, particularly one in which time is distorted.  

    Regarding the game mechanic discussions and my request to leave it be was that there was already a good deal of "I would be ok with it if they did X" already.  While I think that's valid the general tone from those seemed to be "I'd be ok with it if it was useless" or "there's no way they can make it balanced."  There was actually also a tremendous amount of good ideas on how it could be balanced properly while still being accurate to early guns.  And even if there weren't, they can tweak things to balance it anyway they see fit.  For example, Avelyn shoots the same bolts (but three of them) at what appears to be the same velocity as other crossbows.  Easy physics means that all three being the same mass and velocity as a single bolt from another weapon should mean that ALL three do full damage.  That makes the weapon unbalanced and thus they nerfed it.  So again, while I think the spirit of the thread is ok with "Yeah, I'd be fine with a gun if they kept it balanced." It's easily proven that they can balance it so while suggestions on doing it aren't taboo, it's a tangent that seemed to cause a lot of needless back and forth.


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