Would you accept a Pistol if....

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    Re: Would you accept a Pistol if....

    Post by Reaperfan on Fri Jun 14, 2013 5:11 pm

    I can respect wanting to avoid past confrontations.  However, the way you phrased your statement I quoted above came across as rather dismissing.  It sounded as if you were saying "I just wanted a yes or no guys, stop talking about the rest of that stuff."  Most of us have a condition behind our yesses or noes though, and to say you don't want to talk about the condition means we can't honestly answer the question of "do you like the idea."

    For instance, with my opinions, whether I'm okay with it or not directly relies on how it would be implemented into the game systems.  I'm against the idea of them being a weapon class in and of themselves because when looked at from a game design point of view, on the most basic mechanical level guns offer nothing new over crossbows.  If I can't discuss that and put in the qualifier of "as long as it's a unique weapon within a pre-existing class" then I can't truly say I like the idea.

    For others, whether they are or aren't okay with the idea seemingly depends solely on what period of "Medieval" they percieve the Dark Souls universe to be based on.  If they can't discuss "here's the period I have in mind" then they can't properly say whether they're okay with the idea or not.

    I now understand that this wasn't your meaning (or at least your intentions) with the quote.  But you can't deny that those subjects are core to some peoples' involvement with the discussion, and to say something that can be paraphrased as "stop talking about these things" implies that you don't care about their opinions or that opinions on those particular topics are invalid.

    Bottom line is, don't look at anything in this thread as an argument or confrontation.  People simply want others to understand their own opinions.  At least in my eyes, in the short time I've been paying attention to this thread, nobody has really come across as saying "your take on the matter is wrong!" but rather "I disagree with your take on the matter.  Here's my take so that we are both aware as to why we disagree."  It's a subtle, but important, tonal distinction.  I realize you don't want a flame war to erupt, but from what I've seen, nobody's done any flaming.  Things may get heated, but I've not felt a sense of true confrontation so far between anybody, so there's no need to get worried about what subjects we happen to be talking about pony03

    PS:  I'm really, really tired, so I apologize if I phrased or worded something in this psuedo-intellectual mini-essay poorly.  If I have, I'm sure we can sort it out later after I've gotten some sleep pony02


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    Re: Would you accept a Pistol if....

    Post by Shakie666 on Fri Jun 14, 2013 7:21 pm

    A kind of pistol could work as a consumable item, like an incredibly powerful throwing knife. This would also reflect the fact that they wouldn't really need any stats to use and would also solve the reloading problem.

    Fom a lore perspective though, no chance. Even cannons would be pushing it. The first recorded use of a cannon by europeans was in 1248, though they didn't really come into their own until much later.

    However, this is a game, you have to think about how all this stuff happened in real life. I mean, if Dks were real, there wouldn't be much point to using heavy armour at all. In the battle of Crecy, the english archers made mincemeat of the french knights, their longbows being powerful enough to pierce platemail. This isn't something that makes for good gameplay though. And when you add magic into the mix...
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    Re: Would you accept a Pistol if....

    Post by Slarg232 on Fri Jun 14, 2013 11:48 pm

    samster628 wrote:I JUST TOLD YOU!!!
    IT IS HISTORICALLY INACCURATE. FLINTLOCKS WERE NOT DEVELOPED UNTIL 2 CENTURIES AFTER THE MEDIEVAL AGES (explosives such as cannons have been around for about 2 centuries longer)
    Its one thing to put it all in a tube and fire which as i said happened in the latter stages of the medieval ages but quite another to be able to fire from your hand. Also while yes swords were drawn if you didnt have enough time to reload but you would intend to drop your enemy with the first shot.
    GUNS ARE NOT AS SIMPLE AS SHOVE IT IN A TUBE WITH GUNPOWDER AND LIGHT THE END. With cannons all you really need to go is make sure the tube can hold the blast for a shot or two and not fire the wrong way. with a gun you also need to be able to have it light enough to carry and not so much recoil as to blast the person off their feet. YOU DAFT ... person.
    Bows have style and fit the era guns do not and are much more deadly than bows. What your paragraph about not being different is on about i do not know. That is about how they could be implemented not why they should be. THIS TYPE OF IDEOLOGY IS WHY ... END OF ANNOUNCEMENT


    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    We can have music playing levers that send people into a rage, that wasn't discovered until Pavlov in the 1800's, We can have exploding fire bombs (Which were used primarily during the Grecian eras) , we can have three shot crossbows (Which still have yet to be introduced into the real world), but the MOMENT you take EXISTING TECH and use it IN THE NEXT NATURAL EVOLUTION OF THE TECH, Then it's "OH LORDY, IT DOESN'T FIT THE WORLD!"

    Guns couldn't peirce armor when they were first invented; they were no more deadly than bows, and even less so than crossbows. Do your research if you're going to talk about ancient weapons in the real world.




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    Re: Would you accept a Pistol if....

    Post by WaffleGuy on Sat Jun 15, 2013 10:46 am

    Just a quick question:
    I get why people are saying 'it's not accurate, it doesn't fit, etc.'
    But why are we going on about the age we're in?
    To my knowledge, we're not bound by a certain time. We don't know if we live in the 'medieval times', it just looks like it. People will argue for canons, but blasting fire out of our hands is realistic? There might be people from a far land that have more advanced weaponry. Heck, they might be the ones who travel by ship in order to carry our hero to this land.


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    Re: Would you accept a Pistol if....

    Post by Dibsville on Sat Jun 15, 2013 10:51 am

    Pretty sure we have Crossbows, and history tells that guns aren't far behind, albeit not most of the guns mentioned.


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    Re: Would you accept a Pistol if....

    Post by WaffleGuy on Sat Jun 15, 2013 10:54 am

    Oh yeah guys, btw, fireworks were invented in China during the 7th century. Pretty early, don't you think?


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    Re: Would you accept a Pistol if....

    Post by Dibsville on Sat Jun 15, 2013 10:56 am

    Don't forget DkS2 may be a prequel, so guns may not have been made in that age.
    As a sequel it's very well possible, just highly unlikely.


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    Re: Would you accept a Pistol if....

    Post by Reaperfan on Sat Jun 15, 2013 12:31 pm

    Dibsville wrote:Don't forget DkS2 may be a prequel, so guns may not have been made in that age.
    As a sequel it's very well possible, just highly unlikely.

    But time in Lordran is distorted pony13


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    Re: Would you accept a Pistol if....

    Post by Dibsville on Sat Jun 15, 2013 12:31 pm

    Reaperfan wrote:
    Dibsville wrote:Don't forget DkS2 may be a prequel, so guns may not have been made in that age.
    As a sequel it's very well possible, just highly unlikely.

    But time in Lordran is distorted pony13

    >My mind.


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    Re: Would you accept a Pistol if....

    Post by Encore on Sat Jun 15, 2013 12:47 pm

    Reaperfan wrote:
    Dibsville wrote:Don't forget DkS2 may be a prequel, so guns may not have been made in that age.
    As a sequel it's very well possible, just highly unlikely.

    But time in Lordran is distorted pony13

    Does not take place in Lordran.


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    Re: Would you accept a Pistol if....

    Post by Reaperfan on Sat Jun 15, 2013 12:50 pm

    Teh Kitten´s Cat wrote:
    Reaperfan wrote:
    Dibsville wrote:Don't forget DkS2 may be a prequel, so guns may not have been made in that age.
    As a sequel it's very well possible, just highly unlikely.

    But time in Lordran is distorted pony13

    Does not take place in Lordran.

    Hmm...you're right. This is my mind having been awake for too long. My b pony14


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    Re: Would you accept a Pistol if....

    Post by lonewolf on Sat Jun 15, 2013 12:58 pm

    Reaperfan wrote:
    Teh Kitten´s Cat wrote:
    Reaperfan wrote:
    Dibsville wrote:Don't forget DkS2 may be a prequel, so guns may not have been made in that age.
    As a sequel it's very well possible, just highly unlikely.

    But time in Lordran is distorted pony13

    Does not take place in Lordran.
    remember time also seem to be distorted in boletaria as well so its a large chance that its distorted ewerywhere.
    Hmm...you're right.  This is my mind having been awake for too long.  My b pony14


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    Re: Would you accept a Pistol if....

    Post by raecor14 on Sat Jun 15, 2013 11:31 pm

    i know, i say this a lot, but no, no guns, ever, ever, ever


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    Re: Would you accept a Pistol if....

    Post by Serious_Much on Sun Jun 16, 2013 10:13 am

    Teh Kitten´s Cat wrote:
    Reaperfan wrote:
    Dibsville wrote:Don't forget DkS2 may be a prequel, so guns may not have been made in that age.
    As a sequel it's very well possible, just highly unlikely.

    But time in Lordran is distorted pony13

    Does not take place in Lordran.

    Time will be distorted anywhere in the said universe. Considering vital game mechanics hang on that lore such as thousands of us all doing the same quest made for the one main character, we can invade and summon, I think it's safe to assume time is distorted anywhere in the souls universe, not just the ingeniously (sarcasm) names lordran


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    Re: Would you accept a Pistol if....

    Post by hey its andres on Sun Jun 16, 2013 6:47 pm

    Why all this talk about historical accuracy? Last I checked there were no hot spider babes during the time of castles, chivalry, bibles.

    Edit: BTW skare I'm sorry I stole your comment, I just read it right now. I agree though, why discuss accuracy or "realism" when there are demons, dragons, giants, legends, vag--- dragons, spider baits, egg men, gods, and most importantly, a chick with mammaries that would make a cow jealous.


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    Re: Would you accept a Pistol if....

    Post by Forum Pirate on Sun Jun 16, 2013 7:06 pm

    No pistol. Have we reached that conclusion yet? Bringing guns to a swordfight will get you the win, but it makes you a prick, and I'd prefer to avoid a "use this or you're an idiot" weapon.


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    Re: Would you accept a Pistol if....

    Post by hey its andres on Sun Jun 16, 2013 7:23 pm

    I doubt they will make a pistol because DkSII is going to heavily PVP oriented. This means that [hopefully] no weapon will be mindblowingly, god crushing overpowered. Guns of all sorts give me that impression.


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    Re: Would you accept a Pistol if....

    Post by Serious_Much on Sun Jun 16, 2013 8:11 pm

    Who said dksII will be heavily PvP oriented? cus last time i checked there was nothing saying that.

    Sadly that statement makes a shed load of alarm bells go off in my head!

    I hope to god it isnt, PvP oriented games usually sacrifice their offline game as a result and suck like most FPS, Assassin's creed recently etc.

    Souls should stay a PvE oriented game, if they know how to keep the spirit of the game alive that is


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    Re: Would you accept a Pistol if....

    Post by Reaperfan on Mon Jun 17, 2013 10:49 am

    Forum Pirate wrote:No pistol. Have we reached that conclusion yet? Bringing guns to a swordfight will get you the win, but it makes you a prick, and I'd prefer to avoid a "use this or you're an idiot" weapon.

    How, at least in term of game mechanics, would guns be much different than crossbows are right now that would make them so overpowered?


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    Re: Would you accept a Pistol if....

    Post by skarekrow13 on Mon Jun 17, 2013 11:09 am

    Two points I've already made but since the conversation returned here they're valid again: 

    -The science behind Avelyn's bolts doing decreased damage is nonexistent. It was nerfed simply because it would have become a God weapon it if followed the laws of physics.  There's no evidence to date to think that From would add an ungodly powerful weapon into a Souls game (Armored Core perhaps)

    -From a distance of 20 feet or under, bringing a holstered gun to a knife fight is suicide.  The knife will win in almost every circumstance, no questions asked.  

    Bottom line, and I keep repeating this, there's no reason to suggest that a gun would inevitably be overpowered since there's numerous ways to limit it's usefulness.  Like Serious said (pretty sure it was he), not all guns are fully automatic engines of death with a grenade launcher added on for good measure.  Early guns could make a nice dent in armor but were far less imposing on plate mail than a lucerne.  

    To answer the thread question, I couldn't care less if they added a gun into the game. If they don't, great, I likely wouldn't have used it myself anyway (I would envision it being similar to a crossbow).  If they do add it, I don't suspect it will be overpowered (since I envision it being similar to a crossbow if implemented).  And unless they throw me an AR-15 instead of a flintlock pistol or similar concept (blunderbuss anyone?) I won't be tossed out of my immersive game world.  

    That last statement.....feel free to disagree wholeheartedly.  Because that question is the kicker.  If a flintlock pistol or blunderbuss walks in the door, does it immediately make you take the disc out of the console?

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    Re: Would you accept a Pistol if....

    Post by samster628 on Mon Jun 17, 2013 2:30 pm

    You people are taking my realism out of context big time. Yes there is that fantasy aspect but a game with no logic to follow is pointless. For example if double tapping triangle made you float midair would it be good? Or how about a ray gun? You know screw it lets just replace ornstien and smough with darth vader and a frikkin death star. The list goes on. The point is some things just don't fit the medievil theme and i am pointing out that as guns did not exist at this time they don't fit ether. Come on You got stone castles, dark iron gates wooden gates. Guns. Do. Not. Fit. If you brought in guns you may as well replace anor londo with new york and change gwyn to be flippin' kim jong il.

    Like to point out i am not angry, saying anyone elses opinions are crap etc just to be clear (had enough arguments for the time being). Just in my opinion a good game twists reality just enough to be fun but not so far as to a big pile of crap and guns cross this boundry for the reasons i stated.


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    Re: Would you accept a Pistol if....

    Post by skarekrow13 on Mon Jun 17, 2013 2:52 pm

    Samster, you answered the thread pretty darn well (again).  To Samster and others, the presence of a gun ruins the immersion.  And that is a huge deal.  Some of us can justify it.  For some of us it would enhance the game.  Some (like me) are indifferent.  But....well said Samster

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    Re: Would you accept a Pistol if....

    Post by Forum Pirate on Tue Jun 18, 2013 4:58 pm

    Reaperfan wrote:
    Forum Pirate wrote:No pistol. Have we reached that conclusion yet? Bringing guns to a swordfight will get you the win, but it makes you a prick, and I'd prefer to avoid a "use this or you're an idiot" weapon.

    How, at least in term of game mechanics, would guns be much different than crossbows are right now that would make them so overpowered?
    I suppose it would depend on the damage from had them do, and which pistol, to be fair. If things are kept proportional guns (starting with the areubus) are more powerful than and reload faster than heavy crossbows (which are already very powerful). The next iteration is muskets and they include the blunderbuss, which is more than capable or punching right through heavy plate (even the pistol version.) If the defs just said screw it and had them be comporable to crossbows I can't say it would be overpowered, but it would be pointless.

    The first guns (using the term loosly) are from 12th century china, so the "doesn't fit" argument isn't particularly valid in terms of our actual history, real fire arms show up in the 15th century, which is around the same time people stopped building castles because cannons wrecked them, but there were lots of them at the same time as both the same time as early fire arms, castles, swords and bows.


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    Re: Would you accept a Pistol if....

    Post by Serious_Much on Tue Jun 18, 2013 6:21 pm

    samster628 wrote:You people are taking my realism out of context big time. Yes there is that fantasy aspect but a game with no logic to follow is pointless. For example if double tapping triangle made you float midair would it be good? Or how about a ray gun? You know screw it lets just replace ornstien and smough with darth vader and a frikkin death star. The list goes on. The point is some things just don't fit the medievil theme and i am pointing out that as guns did not exist at this time they don't fit ether. Come on You got stone castles, dark iron gates wooden gates. Guns. Do. Not. Fit. If you brought in guns you may as well replace anor londo with new york and change gwyn to be flippin' kim jong il.

    You could also say that it would be ludicrous if people could throw lightning or there could be spiders that spew lava, or swords that fire energy beams..

    Or you could also say everyone is a walking zombie, and completely capable of coherent thought.

    I think the realism argument doesn't work at all. A spear that can shoot lightning is technologically far beyond the technology we need for a gun, or anything like that- yet the one that we can't even make yet is perfectly fine while the other, much more plausible weapon isn't ok?

    I'm sorry but it makes no sense to say that having a couple of flintlock pistols in a medieval/renaissance setting is less logical than people who magically grow, weapons that shoot lightning and energy and where zombies walk around perfectly fine despite having rotted flesh that would not be able to move.

    The stuff already in the game is (lets be honest here) already a bit questionable, yet we think it's perfectly ok because it's 'fantasy', while guns are not acceptable? The logic is flawed, and really this whole argument might as well be yes and no as to whether you like it or not. There's absolutely nothing that means some basic pistols would be out of place in a world where dragons fly around and the world is populated by the walking undead, it's just personal preference.

    I'm open to the idea of guns as they would be pretty cool, but really in terms of gameplay there's no reason to add them in, as they'd have almost identical mechanics to crossbows just with higher power and longer reload time.


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    Re: Would you accept a Pistol if....

    Post by hey its andres on Wed Jun 19, 2013 1:14 am

    Screw guns, I'll take my slingshot.


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