Dead Angling. Good or bad????

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    Are you okay with dead angling?

    [ 29 ]
    50% [50%] 
    [ 7 ]
    12% [12%] 
    [ 10 ]
    17% [17%] 
    [ 6 ]
    10% [10%] 
    [ 6 ]
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    Re: Dead Angling. Good or bad????

    Post by Forum Pirate on Tue Jan 15, 2013 3:40 pm

    Kicks: trade bait, no stamina damage unless blocked (and not enough to matter against great shields unless several land in a row), no damage at all.

    Guard breaking: stamina regen rate is to quick for this and its parry/trade bait that play's to their strengths

    Turtling: this boils down to "who chips faster'

    Magic: havels shield, the stone great shield, the crest shield and the black knight shield all laugh off the respective magics excluding dark magics for mid shields (who can likely midroll to safety) and the tempest type spells that are extraordinarily easy to avoid. The lightning spears might actually accomplish something, if they weren't so pitifully easy to avoid, and they require high faith for real damage, leaving them just as (or more) limited than the shotel

    Bsing: gets you deadangled or kicked and roll bsing requires they make a move to attack from really csode range, which isn't likely and could very well end with you being deadangled anyways.


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    Re: Dead Angling. Good or bad????

    Post by Forum Pirate on Tue Jan 15, 2013 3:44 pm

    Parries: the smart ones attack at random or only while you're stuck in an attack animation (ie a trade) so its just not going to fly and any new player is easily parried so they are irrelevant here.

    I miss anything or get something wrong?

    Because as I see it, none of those things work on decent turtles, they're too situational and generally easily avoidable or inconsiquential under the best circumstances

    As I said, I am dismissing them, but I'm not doing so on a whim. I have tried them, dealt with them as a turtle and put serious thought into how and why they work/don't work.


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    Re: Dead Angling. Good or bad????

    Post by Nybbles on Tue Jan 15, 2013 4:01 pm

    @Forum Pirate

    i don't think you missed anything and your assessments are bang on as far as i can tell. but the thing is that not all those options are available all the time, which brings me back to choice. you have to pick which strategy you are going to use and build your toon around that choice, at least that's what i do anyway. so if i want to be able to deal with shield users , turtles specifically, i would incorporate a shotel into the build. if the shotel isn't going to be my thing, i have other options available (less effective, but they are still available). thanks to dead angles, any weapon with a horizontal swing can serve the same purpose as the shotel, making that choice moot. which is not a good thing in a game where every choice should matter.

    in the end, dead angles are not the end all and be all of dealing with shield users. like i said before, if punishing turtles is the only reason to keep dead angles around, then i don't think they should be there at all and not many would even miss them if they were to disappear.
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    Re: Dead Angling. Good or bad????

    Post by Sentiel on Tue Jan 15, 2013 4:04 pm

    I wasn't even aware that UGS and other Str weapons got nerfed as well, I thought it was only Greatswords. It just shows Str isn't my stuff.

    I was kinda glad that they removed infinity stunlock on Claymore and MLGS, although I think they can still do it with 1H if your opponent has low Poise. Not sure...

    But I still think big Str weapons should stunlock and do seriously more damage to blocks on medium shields.

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    Re: Dead Angling. Good or bad????

    Post by Forum Pirate on Tue Jan 15, 2013 4:23 pm

    Deadangles the way they are now are probably overkill, I'll give you that, but I shouldn't be required to build to stop turtles to have a real shot at it either (assuming the opposing player is awake), which is what an outright removal would do.

    Think of it like building to stop magic as is.

    building to stop magic gives me an advantage against it but not building specifically to deal with it doesn't result in it being borderline impossible to deal with either as there are numerous effective ways of doing so.

    It should work the same with turtles.

    Its also one of the best ways for slow weapons to handle fishing btw, which is often (and extremely frustratingly) paired with turtling.


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    Re: Dead Angling. Good or bad????

    Post by Serious_Much on Tue Jan 15, 2013 4:56 pm

    Serious_Much wrote:It's the same kinda situation we have with BS, except with BS it's more offensive to see happen because your guy gets a blade through his back before being decked. In my opinion it's just as bad, but it's not really bad game design too much (though i'd argue a slight increase in block angle to allow for the obvious flaw in the blocking mechanic that your guy never moves his shield).

    In my opinion, it's something thats just made worse by lag. Without it, if you get hit by a dead angle either it's complete ******** and the games fault, or you're just being a moron with your blocks. Just like BS this can be used, over used and outright abused and really need addressing.

    Considering the amount of 'good' players who use dead angling as their main leverage for being better than other players though, my opinion could get shot down with all the fury of a scorned woman.

    since apparently noone read it the first time...


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    Re: Dead Angling. Good or bad????

    Post by Samurainova on Tue Jan 15, 2013 8:07 pm

    Serious_Much wrote:
    Serious_Much wrote:It's the same kinda situation we have with BS, except with BS it's more offensive to see happen because your guy gets a blade through his back before being decked. In my opinion it's just as bad, but it's not really bad game design too much (though i'd argue a slight increase in block angle to allow for the obvious flaw in the blocking mechanic that your guy never moves his shield).

    In my opinion, it's something thats just made worse by lag. Without it, if you get hit by a dead angle either it's complete ******** and the games fault, or you're just being a moron with your blocks. Just like BS this can be used, over used and outright abused and really need addressing.

    Considering the amount of 'good' players who use dead angling as their main leverage for being better than other players though, my opinion could get shot down with all the fury of a scorned woman.

    since apparently noone read it the first time...

    Thank you for your comment and we appreciate your input happy
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    Re: Dead Angling. Good or bad????

    Post by fujiphoenix on Tue Jan 15, 2013 9:59 pm

    PVP would suck without latency. Its the one thing that prevents other players from parrying each other like they do pve enemies. From probably put latency in the game on purpose for that reason.
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    Re: Dead Angling. Good or bad????

    Post by Aznul on Wed Jan 16, 2013 1:20 am

    Personally I prefer to have as little lag as possible, with no lag being the best. I doubt lag would be artificially and intentionally added to any online multiplayer game/server. It just wouldn't make any sense.

    Also, I have had matches with zero lag, so I doubt it is intentionally added. If it is, then it would always be there.


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    Re: Dead Angling. Good or bad????

    Post by Juutas on Wed Jan 16, 2013 1:46 am

    Sentiel wrote:I wasn't even aware that UGS and other Str weapons got nerfed as well, I thought it was only Greatswords. It just shows Str isn't my stuff.

    I was kinda glad that they removed infinity stunlock on Claymore and MLGS, although I think they can still do it with 1H if your opponent has low Poise. Not sure...

    But I still think big Str weapons should stunlock and do seriously more damage to blocks on medium shields.

    ...got nerfed how? stunlock is exactly the same with UGS.


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    Re: Dead Angling. Good or bad????

    Post by Forum Pirate on Wed Jan 16, 2013 12:03 pm

    Its great axes that took the hit. The stun time was lowered.


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    Re: Dead Angling. Good or bad????

    Post by Nybbles on Wed Jan 16, 2013 12:03 pm

    Juutas wrote:
    Sentiel wrote:I wasn't even aware that UGS and other Str weapons got nerfed as well, I thought it was only Greatswords. It just shows Str isn't my stuff.

    I was kinda glad that they removed infinity stunlock on Claymore and MLGS, although I think they can still do it with 1H if your opponent has low Poise. Not sure...

    But I still think big Str weapons should stunlock and do seriously more damage to blocks on medium shields.

    ...got nerfed how? stunlock is exactly the same with UGS.

    the greataxe, dragon greatsword and demon machete do not stun-lock anymore. at least that has been my experience while playing my strength build. they are too slow between hits to catch a player after you break their poise/guard. it's hard enough to hit a cartwheeling clown as it is, the patch has only exasperated the problem.

    lag unfortunately affects everything, including trying to hit a cartwheeling clown, dodging a spell spammer, predicting parries, backstabs and the like. i don't think lag should be a consideration when deciding if dead angles, backstabs and what-not should be removed from the game, fixed or left alone.

    dead angles sit on the darker side of that gray zone between black and white for me. i don't like being dead angled when the other player can completely bypass my shield (without having to use a specific weapon for that purpose). i especially don't like it when a WoG spammer turns their back to me. however i do think that dead angles are a great defense against BS fishers.

    i'd be all for adjusting the mechanics to make dead angles less exploitable than they currently are. same with backstabs, and laggy hit detection detection, etc.

    perhaps the problem isn't actually dead angles but shields? if shields had less stability (medium shields specifically) and a wider blocking angle it might go along way to solve the dilemma. as Serious Much suggested.
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    Re: Dead Angling. Good or bad????

    Post by fujiphoenix on Wed Jan 16, 2013 12:58 pm

    Aznul wrote:Personally I prefer to have as little lag as possible, with no lag being the best. I doubt lag would be artificially and intentionally added to any online multiplayer game/server. It just wouldn't make any sense.

    Also, I have had matches with zero lag, so I doubt it is intentionally added. If it is, then it would always be there.

    Latency is different than lag. You wouldn't want to play pvp without latency. You would be able to parry literally every swing of every weapon with almost no effort.
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    Re: Dead Angling. Good or bad????

    Post by Samurainova on Wed Jan 16, 2013 6:15 pm

    Im loving the commenting ^^


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    Re: Dead Angling. Good or bad????

    Post by Animaaal on Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:15 pm

    -I'm not okay with dead angling. Only because it can be abused. Its not that I think it is a gamebreaker. There are several arguements about what is op and what is not, I'm not trying to start that arguement.
    -The only reason I don't like dead angles is because someone can be standing in front of you, while your shield is up, and you still take damage. I don't see how that adds depth to the game.
    -There are plenty of ways to deal with turtles, dead angles only being one of those techniques.
    -I have no problem fighting someone who's good at DAs. Good for them. Using DAs is hardly something to build your entire fighting style around to begin with.
    -I feel the same way about DAs as I feel about telestabs....they just feel broke when witnessed.
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    Re: Dead Angling. Good or bad????

    Post by Samurainova on Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:44 pm

    Animaaal wrote:-I'm not okay with dead angling. Only because it can be abused. Its not that I think it is a gamebreaker. There are several arguements about what is op and what is not, I'm not trying to start that arguement.
    -The only reason I don't like dead angles is because someone can be standing in front of you, while your shield is up, and you still take damage. I don't see how that adds depth to the game.
    -There are plenty of ways to deal with turtles, dead angles only being one of those techniques.
    -I have no problem fighting someone who's good at DAs. Good for them. Using DAs is hardly something to build your entire fighting style around to begin with.
    -I feel the same way about DAs as I feel about telestabs....they just feel broke when witnessed.

    In all honesty, im not sure you exactly know what dead angling is. You cant really get a dead angle standing RIGHT in front of someone. As the name suggest, it would have to be at an angle. The only weapon that can bypass shields for complete damage is a bleed out or the shotel. Even the scythe cant run head forward and hit for complete damage. If the player is in front of you and you take damage, their is a lag spike of some sort.
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    Re: Dead Angling. Good or bad????

    Post by fujiphoenix on Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:57 pm

    Blocks in this game work by blocking damage if you are facing the attacker with your shield up. A dead angle is when the attacker attacks facing away from the defender,it is very easy with an ultra sword or a greatswords 1h r1. If the attacker is not facing the defender, the game does not recognize the block, and you take full damage through your shield.
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    Re: Dead Angling. Good or bad????

    Post by Sloth9230 on Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:59 pm

    Samurainova wrote:

    In all honesty, im not sure you exactly know what dead angling is. You cant really get a dead angle standing RIGHT in front of someone. As the name suggest, it would have to be at an angle. The only weapon that can bypass shields for complete damage is a bleed out or the shotel. Even the scythe cant run head forward and hit for complete damage. If the player is in front of you and you take damage, their is a lag spike of some sort.

    Shotel does half damage, I think...


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    Re: Dead Angling. Good or bad????

    Post by Aznul on Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:04 pm

    Shotel is able to completely ignore an enemy shield with one of its moves. That means full damage.


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    Re: Dead Angling. Good or bad????

    Post by Sloth9230 on Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:12 pm

    H'mmm, I always thought it was only partial damage silly


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    Re: Dead Angling. Good or bad????

    Post by DianaDieHard on Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:32 pm

    Dead angling doesn't really get on my nerves much. Not as much as hornet back stabs any way. I always figured it was the laggy servs...

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    Re: Dead Angling. Good or bad????

    Post by Animaaal on Fri Jan 18, 2013 4:08 am

    Samurainova wrote:...In all honesty, im not sure you exactly know what dead angling is. You cant really get a dead angle standing RIGHT in front of someone...
    -Try to imagine the hands on a clock. I consider anything from 10 o'clock to 2 o'clock to be in front of me (12 o'clock being DIRECTLY if front of me). Especially anything from 11 o'clock to 1 o'clock.
    -Partially to the side does not constitute being "to my side"....ya know??? lol
    -And you're right, latency does compound the issue. Whatever the case may be however, it does appear that one is within the "line of sight" of their opponent when recieving damage from a properly executed dead angle. Whether or not a dead angle can be executed when the opponent of the recipient is EXACTLY 100% in front of them I do not know I guess. But from what I've seen while pvping and from watching vids, it would certainly seem possible.
    -If I'm holding a trash can lid directly in front of me, and my neighbor throws poo at me from the 1 o'clock angle.....I'm gonna move the lid and not get poo'd on. You can only hold your shield up in this game, can't move it slightly to the left or right.


    Last edited by Animaaal on Fri Jan 18, 2013 4:10 am; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: Dead Angling. Good or bad????

    Post by Animaaal on Fri Jan 18, 2013 4:08 am

    fujiphoenix wrote:Blocks in this game work by blocking damage if you are facing the attacker with your shield up. A dead angle is when the attacker attacks facing away from the defender,it is very easy with an ultra sword or a greatswords 1h r1. If the attacker is not facing the defender, the game does not recognize the block, and you take full damage through your shield.
    It was my understanding that these were the only rules of a dead angle.
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    Re: Dead Angling. Good or bad????

    Post by reim0027 on Fri Jan 18, 2013 10:32 am

    The only dead angle I think is bad is the WoG dead angle. Otherwise, they add depth to the game. IMO, very few things are as annoying as fighting a turtle. Dead angling helps fight that.


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    Re: Dead Angling. Good or bad????

    Post by Nybbles on Fri Jan 18, 2013 12:46 pm

    dead angles do help with fighting turtles, there is no denying that. but they aren't used to just fight turtles (WoG anyone?), they also work just as well against anyone who has half a mind to try to block a giant *** hammer that is about to smash them like a tent peg.

    think of it this way…

    only a few players will turtle during PvP. i see turtling as having a shield raised and poking from behind it at all times. players that attempt to block an attack with a shield are not turtles, it's common sense. while only a few players will turtle almost everyone uses a shield. however, thanks to dead angles, i've found shields to be more of a burden in PvP than helpful. dead angles allow anyone to completely ignore shields all together. which affects everyone, not just a select few who like to turtle.

    you just should not be able to completely ignore a shield unless your build specifically incorporates a weapon that is intentionally designed to do just that. otherwise, the reason for using a shield for what it was intended to be used for is muted if not made completely ineffective.

    consider this as well…

    the best strength builds are actually quality builds. this is because there is no point in having more than 28 in strength. since dead angles make using a shield moot, why would you ever want to not two-hand your giant mass of iron and steel anyway? which has the added side effect of making the grass crest shield much better than any other shield in the game, since it's going to be on your back the whole time anyway. since you only need 28 strength for an effective strength build, you have allot more points to put into dexterity instead, which is a good idea since allot of great weapons scale with C/C. in effect dead angles have helped to kill the pure strength build. they are certainly less popular than dexterity or quality builds anyway.

    in my opinion…

    dead angles hurt the PvP balance more than it helps. it makes some build options completely ineffective and renders others much less interesting. since there are other ways to deal with the few players that turtle, what ever can be done to remedy this situation would be a good thing. why would you want to hurt everyone so you can deal with a few?

    EDIT: dead angles also reduce the overall skill and tactics needed to get by in PvP. when you can deal with just about any player or play style by using dead angles, why would you bother trying anything else? why shouldn't you have to make that choice when deciding how you are going to build your next toon. do you want to deal with turtles, then build for it. dead angles remove the need to make those necessary sacrifices. why play rock paper scissors when dead angles beat all three?

    reduce a shields stability, increase the angle from which you can block, improve hit detection. whatever it takes i say.

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