Dead Angling. Good or bad????

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    Are you okay with dead angling?

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    [ 10 ]
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    [ 6 ]
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    Ghadis_God
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    Re: Dead Angling. Good or bad????

    Post by Ghadis_God on Mon Jan 14, 2013 2:15 am

    It's not like Dead Angles are some gamebreaking mechanic, they're situational attacks that let you deal with a strategy of the enemy's that's unbalanced, i.e. shield turtling. Most fights, I don't need to use them at all, they kind of require you to predict when the opponent will be behind his shield and good players that don't turtle won't let that happen. It leaves you too open for it to be viable in a serious duel, it's just a way to deal with a tactic that would be broken otherwise.


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    Re: Dead Angling. Good or bad????

    Post by Forum Pirate on Mon Jan 14, 2013 2:25 am

    Most duels, trying would get me bsd. Might land 1 attack with it, if I hadn't tried before in that match and they were block happy. excluding wog (which I don't like, not that it stops me doing it,) its really only an issue if I'm turtling or fighting turtles.


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    Re: Dead Angling. Good or bad????

    Post by The Letter X on Mon Jan 14, 2013 2:26 am

    Just to add why I like dead angles, they are very useful to avoid getting parried. I don't think I'd ever be able to use the Great Scythe or an Ultra Greatsword against a decent player without dead angles. I know if it didn't exist all I'd do is sight parry UGS's and try even more blind parry attempts against the Great Scythe.


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    Re: Dead Angling. Good or bad????

    Post by Juutas on Mon Jan 14, 2013 2:31 am

    Dead angle is one of my main tools when fighting and it brings one more element to dueling.
    I'm really happy it exists.


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    Re: Dead Angling. Good or bad????

    Post by Sentiel on Mon Jan 14, 2013 6:28 am

    I think that if an attack hits my character it should damage me and if it hits my shield, I should be able to block it.

    Weapons like Great Scythe can visually attack my character through my shield (just use R2 up close), but I still block it.
    Another weapons, simply hit my shield, but damage me instead (not Shotel, mind you).

    Both are bollocks in my opinion.

    It's like when someone blocks with small shield and my arrows can't hit his obviously unprotected legs and get blocked by a shield which is a meter above the arrows.

    Spells with ranged AoE, like Emit Force and Fireballs, should be able to damage me if the AoE blast happens on my sides, or behind me. It makes sense after all. But spells like WoG, Force and Dragon Roar, should have no way get to through my shield.

    Saying that we need dead angles to deal with turtles is silly. I deal with turtles on daily basis and don't need to dead angle them.
    Deand angling is by far not the only way to deal with turtles and it's existance should not be justified because it's a way to deal with turtles, it's just you guys being lazy to come with a way to deal with an effective combat tactic and rather use the easy way of exploiting a glitch.

    You got so many options to deal with them.
    Shotel, guard break, Black Flame, chip damage, Aux effects, AoEs and more. The best is that you don't need stats to use any of these, so anyone can enjoy trampling turtles to groung with these, well except for the Shotel, it needs like 14 Dex I think.

    My 0,02€.

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    Re: Dead Angling. Good or bad????

    Post by Ghadis_God on Mon Jan 14, 2013 7:02 am

    Sentiel wrote:

    You got so many options to deal with them.
    Shotel, guard break, Black Flame, chip damage, Aux effects, AoEs and more. The best is that you don't need stats to use any of these, so anyone can enjoy trampling turtles to groung with these, well except for the Shotel, it needs like 14 Dex I think.

    My 0,02€.

    Shotel requires 14 dex, it's weak, has low range, and is incredibly predictable to the point where you will get parried if the opponent know what they're doing. It also uses weight in the offhand. Guard Break is impossible unless your opponent is really stupid, not to mention setup parries which make that point moot for every weapon slower than a katana (the only ones that have a chance at breaking guard). Black Flame is equally predictable and only works all the time on smaller shields, the ones turtles don't use. Chip damage? You're liable to break your weapon first. Aux effects- two weapons in the game have poison, two have toxic. Not exactly a diverse range of options, and most PvPers have the curing item quickslotted. In terms of bleed, trying to apply it will get you parried. You're unlikely to apply it against all but the stupidest/newest players. AoEs- WotG only applies to a few builds. Turtles will dodge GCFB. Force can't do anything against a shield, and Dragon Roar means you have to be a dragon. Compare it to using a weapon that swings sideways, walking up to the enemy, and swinging unlocked while turning toward the back or the sides. Dead Angling is the best and most widely applicable tactic across a variety of builds, not to mention that it contributes to overall game balance by reducing the effectiveness of a 2 weight Heater shield that will literally block extended attacks from +15 UG weapons and have the opponent run out of stamina first. Shields would be OP if not for dead angles. If your opponent tries to DA you, bs them, or dodge it. it's a predictable tactic that only applies to a select few situations in PvP.


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    Re: Dead Angling. Good or bad????

    Post by Sentiel on Mon Jan 14, 2013 7:40 am

    @Ghadis_God

    As I said, lazy, justifing existence of a glitch to make your life easier against a superior (albeit cheap) tactic instead of doing the hard work around it.

    I hate to admit it, but I don't even f*cking know how to dead angle properly and thus use it very rarely, unintentionally most of the time and still win without it. Look Skyward

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    Re: Dead Angling. Good or bad????

    Post by lextune on Mon Jan 14, 2013 11:36 am

    I think dead angling, (as we call it) is completely intentional. It is like a perk for fighting unlocked, lol.

    My UGS builds all use it as par for the course. In PvP and PvE. I honestly don't recall the last time I ever locked on with an UGS.


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    Re: Dead Angling. Good or bad????

    Post by Samurainova on Mon Jan 14, 2013 11:42 am

    [quote="lextune"]I think dead angling, (as we call it) is completely intentional. It is like a perk for fighting unlocked, lol.

    My UGS builds all use it as par for the course. In PvP and PvE. I honestly don't recall the last time I ever locked on with an UGS.[/quote

    Thank you for yiur input happy
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    Re: Dead Angling. Good or bad????

    Post by Aznul on Mon Jan 14, 2013 3:31 pm

    All of these "you will be parried so that's stupid" remarks seem a bit childish, also, remember that many turtles use greatshields, which cannot parry.


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    Re: Dead Angling. Good or bad????

    Post by Forum Pirate on Mon Jan 14, 2013 3:46 pm

    I turtle with a heater shield, which parries great. Great shield turtles are less than competent turtles. They can be killed any number of ways, because they're doing it wrong. The debate was never that crappy turtles are OP so dead angles are necessary, its that good turtles are OP so dead angles are necessay.


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    Re: Dead Angling. Good or bad????

    Post by ChizFreak on Mon Jan 14, 2013 4:04 pm

    Forum Pirate wrote:I turtle with a heater shield, which parries great. Great shield turtles are less than competent turtles. They can be killed any number of ways, because they're doing it wrong. The debate was never that crappy turtles are OP so dead angles are necessary, its that good turtles are OP so dead angles are necessay.

    So... enlighten us, what's a good turtle, or even better, tell us how you manage to turtle with a Heather Shield.


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    Re: Dead Angling. Good or bad????

    Post by Forum Pirate on Mon Jan 14, 2013 4:17 pm

    Don't block constantly, only block when you're in range of their weapon. turtles (the animal) don't constantly hide in their shell, they withdraw into it (if they can) while in danger, same thing here.

    Stamina regenerates very quickly, so not blocking for just a second will refill it, and people tend to try and stay out of poke range unless they're attacking (with good reason) but this gives one the space to regen safely.

    It also parries, so r1 spam isn't a particularly good idea, nor is the really obvious shotel r2.


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    Re: Dead Angling. Good or bad????

    Post by Sentiel on Mon Jan 14, 2013 5:14 pm

    By turtle I mean people using shield poke attacks, or people using Greatshields to block everything.
    Best if combined...

    Just blocking enemy attacks and waiting for the right moment to strike ain't turtling in my world and I do that as well. That's what the shield is for, to block, just not to rely on it too much.

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    Re: Dead Angling. Good or bad????

    Post by Forum Pirate on Mon Jan 14, 2013 5:49 pm

    I use shield poke attacks, but constantly blocking is terrible stamina management, which gets one guard broken no matter what shield they have. Even using shield pokes that drain a lot of stamina, you'll never guard break them, and so never get through that shield.


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    Re: Dead Angling. Good or bad????

    Post by Samurainova on Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:32 pm

    Forum Pirate wrote:I use shield poke attacks, but constantly blocking is terrible stamina management, which gets one guard broken no matter what shield they have. Even using shield pokes that drain a lot of stamina, you'll never guard break them, and so never get through that shield.

    True, but its significantly had to guard break a Havels greatshield. Even with a two handed zweihander its hard to break that thing, and even an un experienced turtler will know when its time to give and get some stamina back. Thanks for your viewpoint i really apreciate it happy
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    Re: Dead Angling. Good or bad????

    Post by Sloth9230 on Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:20 pm

    I dead angle every now and then, mostly unintentionally. Against turtles I will try and turtle, but I kind of suck at it.

    However I agree with Sentiiel; it simply looks ridiculous most of of the time. If I wasn't aware of them, I would think that someone hitting me for full damage through my shield was a glitcher/hacker or whatever they're called. They don't look intentional at all, they look like flaws in the sytem. If they are intentional, then they should be tweaked sop that they look right. I don't know how the developers would do that, but the point is; they don't look right as is.

    Hopefully DKS2 will introduce weapons, besides shotels, that can damage through shields.



    #4 looks like it could hit through shields. Great scythes, pick axes, war picks, lucern, most axes/halberds/hammers, look like they could hit you around a shield. So the fact that they don't, kind of irks me. And I don't mean just R2's; a shotel should be able to hit through a shield without using a special, and easily telegraphed, attack.


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    Re: Dead Angling. Good or bad????

    Post by Samurainova on Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:29 pm

    Sloth9230 wrote:I dead angle every now and then, mostly unintentionally. Against turtles I will try and turtle, but I kind of suck at it.

    However I agree with Sentiiel; it simply looks ridiculous most of of the time. If I wasn't aware of them, I would think that someone hitting me for full damage through my shield was a glitcher/hacker or whatever they're called. They don't look intentional at all, they look like flaws in the sytem. If they are intentional, then they should be tweaked sop that they look right. I don't know how the developers would do that, but the point is; they don't look right as is.

    Hopefully DKS2 will introduce weapons, besides shotels, that can damage through shields.



    #4 looks like it could hit through shields. Great scythes, pick axes, war picks, lucern, most axes/halberds/hammers, look like they could hit you around a shield. So the fact that they don't, kind of irks me. And I don't mean just R2's; a shotel should be able to hit through a shield without using a special, and easily telegraphed, attack.

    I'm sorry but as the artwork stands that looks a lot like a necromorph! :s I hope it changes a little in game.
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    Re: Dead Angling. Good or bad????

    Post by Serious_Much on Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:10 pm

    It's the same kinda situation we have with BS, except with BS it's more offensive to see happen because your guy gets a blade through his back before being decked. In my opinion it's just as bad, but it's not really bad game design too much (though i'd argue a slight increase in block angle to allow for the obvious flaw in the blocking mechanic that your guy never moves his shield).

    In my opinion, it's something thats just made worse by lag. Without it, if you get hit by a dead angle either it's complete ******** and the games fault, or you're just being a moron with your blocks. Just like BS this can be used, over used and outright abused and really need addressing.

    Considering the amount of 'good' players who use dead angling as their main leverage for being better than other players though, my opinion could get shot down with all the fury of a scorned woman.


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    Re: Dead Angling. Good or bad????

    Post by cloudyeki on Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:18 pm

    Sloth, don't forget the previous game, Demon's souls had 3 weapons that could go through shields, Bind, Large Sword of Moonlight, and the shotel.


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    Re: Dead Angling. Good or bad????

    Post by Samurainova on Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:54 pm

    The black knight greataxe used to be horrid with dead angles both one handed and two handed. I think the dlc fixed that since i have seen a large decrease in the usage of the weapon. Thanks for posting as well guys :0

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    Re: Dead Angling. Good or bad????

    Post by Sloth9230 on Mon Jan 14, 2013 11:14 pm

    Samurainova wrote:
    I'm sorry but as the artwork stands that looks a lot like a necromorph! :s I hope it changes a little in game.

    That's not #4... but I hardly see the resemblance. If you're referring to the fact that they're both being controlled by parasites... Halo did it before them, as did Reisdent Evil and I'm sure many other series.


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    Re: Dead Angling. Good or bad????

    Post by Samurainova on Tue Jan 15, 2013 12:45 am

    Sloth9230 wrote:
    Samurainova wrote:
    I'm sorry but as the artwork stands that looks a lot like a necromorph! :s I hope it changes a little in game.

    That's not #4... but I hardly see the resemblance. If you're referring to the fact that they're both being controlled by parasites... Halo did it before them, as did Reisdent Evil and I'm sure many other series.

    No im just talking general look and aesthetics lol thanks for commenting though happy
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    Re: Dead Angling. Good or bad????

    Post by Sloth9230 on Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:00 am

    Aside from a corpse with blade like limbs, I really don't see any similarities. They're not even his limbs, they're the spider's and we don't know if they can actually cut things with them.

    lol, you don't need to thank everyone who comments but... you're welcome 😕


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    Re: Dead Angling. Good or bad????

    Post by Samurainova on Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:29 am

    Sloth9230 wrote:Aside from a corpse with blade like limbs, I really don't see any similarities. They're not even his limbs, they're the spider's and we don't know if they can actually cut things with them.

    lol, you don't need to thank everyone who comments but... you're welcome 😕

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