Dead Angling. Good or bad????

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    Are you okay with dead angling?

    [ 29 ]
    50% [50%] 
    [ 7 ]
    12% [12%] 
    [ 10 ]
    17% [17%] 
    [ 6 ]
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    [ 6 ]
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    Re: Dead Angling. Good or bad????

    Post by Ghadis_God on Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:50 am

    Sentiel wrote:@Ghadis_God

    As I said, lazy, justifing existence of a glitch to make your life easier against a superior (albeit cheap) tactic instead of doing the hard work around it.

    I hate to admit it, but I don't even f*cking know how to dead angle properly and thus use it very rarely, unintentionally most of the time and still win without it. Look Skyward
    You can call it a glitch, but the developers made shield hit detection require both players facing each other for a reason. It's not a glitch by any account, and may even be intentional on the part of the devs. If they didn't want it in the game, why haven't they patched it like the dragonhead glitch and the BB glitch?


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    Re: Dead Angling. Good or bad????

    Post by Samurainova on Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:05 am

    Ghadis_God wrote:
    Sentiel wrote:@Ghadis_God

    As I said, lazy, justifing existence of a glitch to make your life easier against a superior (albeit cheap) tactic instead of doing the hard work around it.

    I hate to admit it, but I don't even f*cking know how to dead angle properly and thus use it very rarely, unintentionally most of the time and still win without it. Look Skyward
    You can call it a glitch, but the developers made shield hit detection require both players facing each other for a reason. It's not a glitch by any account, and may even be intentional on the part of the devs. If they didn't want it in the game, why haven't they patched it like the dragonhead glitch and the BB glitch?

    I can agree. Most of the time a dead angle occured for me, was when they went for a backstab, meaning they were at a 240 degree angle. So it stands to reason that a halberd spin attack would hit behind them for damage, not their shield. Very interesting thanks for your view happy
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    Re: Dead Angling. Good or bad????

    Post by BeeSeaEss on Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:13 am

    ChizFreak wrote:You make too many polls man. Just my opinion.


    I agree with him, you do make alot of polls. On dead angling, I am just learning how to do it and I think it's good for the game since it can counter a turtle, it isn't easy to learn or master so you don't see people spamming dead angles. But on weapons like the scythe, they should make the r2 just like the shotel, it should hit passed the shield, the blade on the scythe clearly hits through the blocker.


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    Re: Dead Angling. Good or bad????

    Post by Sentiel on Tue Jan 15, 2013 6:48 am

    Ghadis_God wrote:
    Sentiel wrote:@Ghadis_God

    As I said, lazy, justifing existence of a glitch to make your life easier against a superior (albeit cheap) tactic instead of doing the hard work around it.

    I hate to admit it, but I don't even f*cking know how to dead angle properly and thus use it very rarely, unintentionally most of the time and still win without it. Look Skyward
    You can call it a glitch, but the developers made shield hit detection require both players facing each other for a reason. It's not a glitch by any account, and may even be intentional on the part of the devs. If they didn't want it in the game, why haven't they patched it like the dragonhead glitch and the BB glitch?
    It doesn't look intentional by far, thus I assume it is a glitch.

    Why they didn't patch it? I don't know, why didn't they patch latency? Spell glitches? Queueing of commands? Shield rebounds? Bleed roll escape? Toggle escape? Phantom hits? And more bollocks that makes no sense at all.

    Because the PvP system is too f*cked to save it with patches and they would have to recreate it from scratch?

    I just watched Tkings Gargoyle Tail Axe video.
    It's very good btw.

    He was nicely showing the "right way" of dead angling. The axes swing had a large horizontal arc and when someone tried to circle him for a bs, the axe hit the guys sides and damaged him through his shield.
    That makes sense, as the weapon clearly hit the character, not his shield. But if someone runs at me with Murakumo and just turns as he swings, his attacks still visibly hit my shield, yet it does damage instead of a block. Same to WoG. Not only I clearly block it and it damages me, but it also pulls me/throws me in the direction the caster is facing, instead of away from him, as it should.

    All of that, is bullsh*t, looks very glitchy, therefore I see it as a glitch and want it removed.

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    Re: Dead Angling. Good or bad????

    Post by Forum Pirate on Tue Jan 15, 2013 8:49 am

    It looks just as wrong that the very slim character can use a dga or that anyone can use magic at all.

    You don't decide reality in the dks universe, thus "it looks wrong" isn't a valid argument. If from says you can dead angle and block attacks that go around your shield then thats what you can do.


    I'm not saying from has claimed to have put it in intentionally. What I'm doing is saying your argument is unsupported.


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    Re: Dead Angling. Good or bad????

    Post by Tolvo on Tue Jan 15, 2013 9:26 am

    I'm quite happy Dead Angles exist, frankly I might have stopped playing long ago if they weren't in the game.

    Now if in the next game they make a grapple mechanic or something else designed for going around a shield aside from one weapon, then I'd be cool with them getting rid of it. But until there is a proper replacement I'd rather it stayed, as I feel it helps to balance PvP a bit more for the most part. Certain weapons do get some really generous dead angles. My lovely Murakumo for example.
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    Re: Dead Angling. Good or bad????

    Post by Sentiel on Tue Jan 15, 2013 9:55 am

    Forum Pirate wrote:It looks just as wrong that the very slim character can use a dga or that anyone can use magic at all.

    You don't decide reality in the dks universe, thus "it looks wrong" isn't a valid argument. If from says you can dead angle and block attacks that go around your shield then thats what you can do.


    I'm not saying from has claimed to have put it in intentionally. What I'm doing is saying your argument is unsupported.
    Want the game like Fable? With stats altering your characters looks? Be my guest. I don't mind.
    Anyone being able to use magic is fine by me. By that I mean Knight being able to learn Sorceries and Miracles, just like Cleric wielding a Greatsword.
    I'm not so sure about Pyromancies though...

    My argument is my opinion and supported by me, if I say it looks wrong to me and I see it as a glitch, then it looks wrong to me and I will call it a glitch, you can't change that by stating my argument is invalind, or unsupported. winking

    @Tolvo
    I think if they would raise the Stamina damage some weapons, especially Str ones do when blocked and/or if they raised Stamina damage for kicks, you could easily break guards of most small and medium shield turtles.

    Even though they did that in the last patch (raised Stamina drain on block), I can still block several Zwei swings with Crest Shield. While it's nice, I would prefer to able to block one, two at most, not four.

    It would also give Great Shields more meaning, other than to block spells.

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    Re: Dead Angling. Good or bad????

    Post by largestember on Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:11 am

    Dead angling is great. Without dead angling it would be a little harder to defeat turtles
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    Re: Dead Angling. Good or bad????

    Post by Forum Pirate on Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:22 am

    My argument there, was as I already stated above. You do not define what is or isn't real in the dks world, so appearance (ie it looks glitchy/unrealistic/stupid) is not a valid reason to alter a mechanic, especially when considering balance. If an opinion is not supported by actual and quantifiable evidence, it is worthless in a discussion such as this. It contributes nothing to any attempt to learn or determine anything or inform anybody of how and why it is/isn't benefitial/negative. This is only made worse when you intentionally disregard supported arguments that are presented and start demeaning it/its users with words like lazy in an (intentional or otherwise) attempt to undermine the valid arguments with superficial crap to lend your own unsupported argument artificial strength.

    I may dissagree with chiz, but at least he had actual points.

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    Re: Dead Angling. Good or bad????

    Post by Tolvo on Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:30 am

    There is always that line that needs to be drawn between realism and authenticity, as well as gameplay. I tend to use the word realistic, but perhaps I should say I like it when games are as authentic as possible. The idea of damage types for weapons being important, is something I really enjoy. But I'm pretty sure the game would be very annoying if when you swing a katana, it just bounces off of anything wearing armor. Or if the Crossbow took a long time to actually reload, or if a single stab killed you and vitality didn't exist. There does need to be a line drawn where balance and gameplay is important above all else, since the purpose of a game is to be interactive and make you want to interact with it.

    There are of course games which get closer and closer to making combat more realistic, such as Mount and Blade. But those games are built around such ideas.
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    Re: Dead Angling. Good or bad????

    Post by Sir-flicker on Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:17 am

    I think dead angles are legit, exept the wotg dead angle.
    My fav weapon is the GS and unless they make able to bypass shields In Dks 2 they should keep dead angles, possibly just refine it a bit. I used them in pve just as often as I do in pvp, and the do take a bit of skill. More then roll bs anyway


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    Re: Dead Angling. Good or bad????

    Post by Samurainova on Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:31 am

    Sir-flicker wrote:I think dead angles are legit, exept the wotg dead angle.
    My fav weapon is the GS and unless they make able to bypass shields In Dks 2 they should keep dead angles, possibly just refine it a bit. I used them in pve just as often as I do in pvp, and the do take a bit of skill. More then roll bs anyway

    You pose great points happy I loved reading your vuew, thank you happy
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    Re: Dead Angling. Good or bad????

    Post by Sentiel on Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:36 am

    Always find one of these fancy words using supposedly clever guys on net, that are too important to look past their own glasses and see people that do not care for their need to nitpick into arguments of others and simply want to speak their mind about the current topic, not get pulled into a debate about something that is clearly a waste of time. Best part is that the community, especially it's higher ups always take the side of the one with more logical arguments, hence not me I supose and it leads to me leaving the community. I'm glad and suprised it took me so long for it to happen here. Still, the best community I have found for DkS. I do not wish to derail this topic any further, so I will answer to you, return to the topic at hand and leave it. You can then post whatever you want and I will from now on ignore you, to save myself troubles writing stuff this long, with no benefit behind it, other than making you chuckle.

    I have only stated my opinion, that it looks like a glitch to me and want it removed. Just that. I do not need to "support my opinion by actual and quantifiable evidence" as you said. Maybe you do, I don't. I don't even understand the need to support my opinions. I am not saying "It's a glitch and must be removed at all cost" I'm saying "I think it's a glitch and I would be happy if it wasn't there, because I don't like it".
    Do you see the difference between those?

    I do not shackle myself by this crap to be honest, I just write what I have on my mind and if you don't like it and say that it is worthless, you are free to ignore it. I actually don't see any reason why you waste your time with argument you yourself deemed worthless.

    I did call players relying on Dead Angles to deal with turtles lazy (is it such a bad word?) because Dead Angles aren't the only method to deal with turtles, it's just one of the easiest and perhaps even cheapest (don't forget, it's a glitch to me) and I see nothing wrong with calling people using it lazy.

    It's like using BB glitch to save yourself the need to farm everything all over again. It just saves your time and effort, that's all it does.
    But I can understand that. Spending hours killing Black Knights in Kiln to get Chunks is a pain and if all you want is a PvP build, I can accept using a glitch to give yourself the stuff you already farmed once. But even if I can understand that, it's still a glitch and I want it out of the game.

    Making things easier for some? Being lazy for me.
    I said, I deal with turtles daily and don't need to dead angle them. All it does is make the fight longer if I don't DA. Is that such a big deal? There is no time limit to fights...well in Arena there is, but being desperate to win enough to use a glitch...

    Some compare DA to throws in fighting games. I don't see DA as such, it's more like doing Hadouken, while facing away from my opponent and it still damages him. That's how I see DA compared to fighting games.
    They got throws and unblockables and we got Shotel, spells, bs, enviroment, Aux and more.

    If From put it in the game intentionally, then I will accept it as a broken mechanic instead of a glitch, that's all it will change for me.

    EDIT:
    tl:dr
    It's angst against Forum Pirate, mostly OT, really.


    Last edited by Sentiel on Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:37 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : for great justice)

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    Re: Dead Angling. Good or bad????

    Post by Tolvo on Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:45 am

    I do agree it is like having an attack while facing away in a fighting game that damages the opponent anyway, but said fighting game would have the ability to block implemented allowing a person to simply hang out on one side of the screen and just win by making the other person bored.

    If eventually such a game series added grapples, I'd say, "Oh yeah. We don't need that reverse Haduken guard break thing anymore. We have the real deal now with a better balance."

    I like Dead Angles because I feel they balance the game out to help in dealing with turtles which have an advantage over most builds. Outside of glass cannons, even spells can be easily turtled against. Slowly whittling someone down with a bow is probably the best option, but to most people that is extremely dull.

    Perhaps you think some people are lazy, I sometimes think people are boring to play against. If someone just runs away from me the whole time I invade them, they won't fight me or go for the boss. I'm just going to black crystal out, they're wasting my time and boring me. If dead angles didn't exist and I were against a turtle, I'd just black crystal out because killing them just isn't worth my time or fun to me.

    I think also there was just a bit of a misunderstanding because of wording, there's no need for anyone to get worked up. I'm sorry if it seemed like I was attacking you or something. I was just trying to discuss the topic at hand.
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    Re: Dead Angling. Good or bad????

    Post by Sentiel on Tue Jan 15, 2013 12:15 pm

    Tolvo wrote:I do agree it is like having an attack while facing away in a fighting game that damages the opponent anyway, but said fighting game would have the ability to block implemented allowing a person to simply hang out on one side of the screen and just win by making the other person bored.

    If eventually such a game series added grapples, I'd say, "Oh yeah. We don't need that reverse Haduken guard break thing anymore. We have the real deal now with a better balance."

    I like Dead Angles because I feel they balance the game out to help in dealing with turtles which have an advantage over most builds. Outside of glass cannons, even spells can be easily turtled against. Slowly whittling someone down with a bow is probably the best option, but to most people that is extremely dull.

    Perhaps you think some people are lazy, I sometimes think people are boring to play against. If someone just runs away from me the whole time I invade them, they won't fight me or go for the boss. I'm just going to black crystal out, they're wasting my time and boring me. If dead angles didn't exist and I were against a turtle, I'd just black crystal out because killing them just isn't worth my time or fun to me.

    I think also there was just a bit of a misunderstanding because of wording, there's no need for anyone to get worked up. I'm sorry if it seemed like I was attacking you or something. I was just trying to discuss the topic at hand.
    Sorry Tolvo, my rant wasn't in no way meant against you, nor anything you wrote. I've mentioned the fighting games, because I think it's a good analogy to the topic.

    I actually agree with you and I also BC/Sing out when people run away from me. I would do the same with turtles as well, if I didn't have an option to fight.

    After some clear headed thought I'm starting to think that what most of you mean by turtling is a bit different from what I have in mind.
    You see, by turtle I magine someone who hides behind a shield and does nothing, but wait and shield poke with a Spear, or a Rapier. I find these people very easy to deal with and see no need to use DA.
    However if you guys think of active defending with a shield while fighting, that is even without shield poking, just blocking as a turtling, then I can understand the need for using DA, especially for Str builds, because Str weapons don't do enough Stamina damage upon blocking.

    Am I correct?

    And I have to admit that I actually do that a lot myself.
    Now I feel ashamed... :oops:

    Funny fact!
    Dark Souls actually has a grapple attack. Dark Hand R2. lol!
    That will show those turtles. big grin


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    Re: Dead Angling. Good or bad????

    Post by Nybbles on Tue Jan 15, 2013 12:16 pm

    Tolvo wrote:There is always that line that needs to be drawn between realism and authenticity, as well as gameplay. I tend to use the word realistic, but perhaps I should say I like it when games are as authentic as possible. The idea of damage types for weapons being important, is something I really enjoy. But I'm pretty sure the game would be very annoying if when you swing a katana, it just bounces off of anything wearing armor. Or if the Crossbow took a long time to actually reload, or if a single stab killed you and vitality didn't exist. There does need to be a line drawn where balance and gameplay is important above all else, since the purpose of a game is to be interactive and make you want to interact with it.

    There are of course games which get closer and closer to making combat more realistic, such as Mount and Blade. But those games are built around such ideas.

    ^well said, 100% agree

    the mechanics (intentional or not) of dead angles creates situations like the WoG ******** that is clearly just wrong. on the other hand, dead angles are also a great defense against backstab fishers, which is a perfectly valid defense. as for bypassing a turtles guard? that's a more difficult argument to make.

    i don't think dead angles should be of any help when you're standing toe to toe with a turtle. shotels are already designed to bypass shields. being able to to get through a turtles shield with a murakumo (or similar) negates the purpose of having weapons like the shotel in the first place. should other weapons be able to bypass shields like the shotel? sure why not. but at the moment the shotel is the only weapon that we can say with any certainty was intentionally designed for the purpose of bypassing a turtles guard.

    with out being able to dead angle through a turtles shield, you are still be able to break their guard with a heavy weapon. on that note, i agree with the argument that heavy strength weapons should be better at breaking your opponents guard. it's already pretty effective, but it could easily be better. there are other tactics as well, such as bleeding them out, poison, toxin, magic chip damage, backstabs and parries.

    so if bypassing a turtles guard is the crux of the argument for why dead angles are a good thing (exploit or not, intentional or not) then i say they aren't actually needed at all and should be done away with.
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    Re: Dead Angling. Good or bad????

    Post by Tolvo on Tue Jan 15, 2013 12:19 pm

    Indeed, people who just stand still poking with a spear earn themselves a roll BS, or me using a strength weapon to just out damage them unless they have a well made build.

    I was speaking more about, someone hiding behind Havel's Shield with a Demon Great Machete. The simply wait you out, let you hit their shield a bunch. Then just strike randomly, due to lag they will get a hit in. So you may do some chip damage for a while, they'll easily win the exchange rate. That's when I'll start using the dead angles of my running R1 to hit around his shield and get him to panic, so he doesn't just hide behind his shield for a few minutes then hit me for half my health.

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    Re: Dead Angling. Good or bad????

    Post by Nybbles on Tue Jan 15, 2013 12:38 pm

    @Tolvo…there's also that. but nothing pisses off a havel build more than flinging :dung: at them. twisted
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    Re: Dead Angling. Good or bad????

    Post by Sentiel on Tue Jan 15, 2013 12:40 pm

    Nybbles wrote:the mechanics (intentional or not) of dead angles creates situations like the WoG ******** that is clearly just wrong. on the other hand, dead angles are also a great defense against backstab fishers, which is a perfectly valid defense. as for bypassing a turtles guard? that's a more difficult argument to make.
    Full agreement. Joy

    Nybbles wrote:i don't think dead angles should be of any help when you're standing toe to toe with a turtle. shotels are already designed to bypass shields. being able to to get through a turtles shield with a murakumo (or similar) negates the purpose of having weapons like the shotel in the first place. should other weapons be able to bypass shields like the shotel? sure why not. but at the moment the shotel is the only weapon that we can say with any certainty was intentionally designed for the purpose of bypassing a turtles guard.
    Again. I'm starting to like this guy.

    I have to admit I kind of expected Great Scythe to bypass shields as well, given it's design and all...

    Nybbles wrote:i agree with the argument that heavy strength weapons should be better at breaking your opponents guard. it's already pretty effective, but it could easily be better.
    Sometimes I meet the rare example of a Str build that doesn't bs fish, I can really ruin his day, simple by blocking. Even though he's swinging a 20kg mass of steel at me, I can block it with a Medium Shield, which is tiny compared to the said weapon.

    I feel that I should be able to block his attack once at best and then either evade the next attack, or get guard break and die. If he can't devastate my guard and now, after the patch can't even stunlock me, his massive Str weapon, isn't the threat it should be.

    Tolvo wrote:Indeed, people who just stand still poking with a spear earn themselves a roll BS, or me using a strength weapon to just out damage them unless they have a well made build.
    That's what I call a turtle.

    Tolvo wrote:I was speaking more about, someone hiding behind Havel's Shield with a Demon Great Machete. The simply wait you out, let you hit their shield a bunch. Then just strike randomly, due to lag they will get a hit in. So you may do some chip damage for a while, they'll easily win the exchange rate. That's when I'll start using the dead angles of my running R1 to hit around his shield and get him to panic, so he doesn't just hide behind his shield for a few minutes then hit me for half my health.
    Ok, that's not turtle in my point of view.
    That's a tank. It's similar, very, but not the same.

    You see, I feel for the guy. He has slow weapon, probably is slow himself and there's ton of Dex fast rolling maniacs and casting warmachines around him and he just can't keep up with them. He has troubles rolling to evade and so has to rely on his shield much more than others.

    I agree these guys are hard to deal with, but if they didn't do that, they would have to just copy Dex guys and start fast rolling as well, only with different weapon.

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    Re: Dead Angling. Good or bad????

    Post by Sir-flicker on Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:02 pm

    I use the running r1 on the Great scythe and turn into there backs just as I pass them. That I think is a legit dead angle as I found a way to get around their shield to there back.


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    Re: Dead Angling. Good or bad????

    Post by Nybbles on Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:14 pm

    Sentiel wrote:I feel that I should be able to block his attack once at best and then either evade the next attack, or get guard break and die. If he can't devastate my guard and now, after the patch can't even stunlock me, his massive Str weapon, isn't the threat it should be.

    exactly…this is why i argue that greataxes and ultra greatswords should not have been nerfed along with the greatswords. the patch punished strength builds far more than it should have, dexterity weapons already had more advantages than strength weapons, now they eclipse them.

    which leads to tank builds that like to hide behind a massive shield (not that they didn't do that before the patch). tanks know that they have one shot and they have be careful about when they choose to take that shot. so i understand their reluctance to fight in balls to the wall battle. even still, bleed weapons are a tanks worst enemy. that and throwing :dung: at them if you don't have a bleed weapon.

    really any build is able to turtle if they want to. besides, what's the difference between a player that constantly hides behind a shield with a spear and a katana user that uses the slash and dash technique while blocking everything in between. both are just as annoying as the other, but neither is an invalid tactic and neither require dead angles to overcome.

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    Re: Dead Angling. Good or bad????

    Post by Nybbles on Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:16 pm

    Sir-flicker wrote:I use the running r1 on the Great scythe and turn into there backs just as I pass them. That I think is a legit dead angle as I found a way to get around their shield to there back.

    indeed…it also works against backstab fisher in the same way, but you should have to get behind your opponent first.
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    Re: Dead Angling. Good or bad????

    Post by Forum Pirate on Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:18 pm

    I don't like lots of things.

    If you don't have solid logic and facts to support you, how can you expect your opinion to be taken seriously? I could start giving out medical opinions right now, but if I don't form them and back them up with/based on solid logic, they will very likely do far more harm than good, so people would be right to ask for such evidence or present evidence that contradicts me.

    If you don't expect it to be taken seriously, why bother posting it at all?

    They're not the only way of dealing with turtles, I never said that, I said the only effective way. As I've said, and as tolvo said, if there was a better mechanic in place like grabs or significantly lower shield stability then it would make sense, balance wise, for them to go and I would be fine with that.

    I've already explained why the shotel isn't a reason for them to go. It becomes essentially mandatory for a successful build to have one and a counter to one. Thats overcentralising and its bad for balance and variety.


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    Re: Dead Angling. Good or bad????

    Post by Nybbles on Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:29 pm

    @Forum Pirate

    i don't mean to pick on your argument, because you do have a point, i just don't agree with it. but when you say…

    Forum Pirate wrote:II said the only effective way.

    …you are enthusiastically dismissing all the other methods of punishing a turtle that are (in my opinion) just as effective as dead angles (which may or may not be an unintentional exploit). including the fact that the shotel was designed specifically for those that want to deal with shield users (most) not just turtles (some).

    wether or not a player decides to pick up and use a shotel is a choice, just like it's a choice to use WoG or not. so the point about weapons that dead angle negating the need to make that choice stands. you should have to make that choice in a game where every choice matters. that's why coming up with new builds that do different things is so appealing. dead angles mute that aspect of the game in my opinion.
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    Re: Dead Angling. Good or bad????

    Post by Forum Pirate on Tue Jan 15, 2013 3:25 pm

    I am dismissing them. For 1 the gsoa stops bleed and tocic outright.

    Even setting that asside, I will go through the list of potential counters I'm aware of and explain their problems. I invite you to present counters I don't mention or flaws in my logic.

    Bleed: could work. On a scale of 1/10 I'd give it a 6. Its problems are the bleed dodge (which is very easy,) moss (and staying close enough to try to punish a moss attempt will likely mean you are in the turtles range at all times so its very dangerous to try) and its slow build means you have to play aggressively, which play's right into the trade or parry strategys of turtles.

    Poision/toxic: This one gets a 3. Its low damage, suffers the same moss problem as bleed and even the stamina regen penalty is easily offset by the colathary ring.

    Shotel: weak, short, the attack that ignores shields is extremely well telegraphed making it parry bait for medium shield turtles or trade bait for big stuff, it requires a sizable dex investment or its weaker still


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    Re: Dead Angling. Good or bad????

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