Your opinion on exploits such as Dead angling or Lag abuse?

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    Should Exploits be in the game?

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    Your opinion on exploits such as Dead angling or Lag abuse?

    Post by Wilkinson3424 on Thu Jul 25, 2013 9:36 pm

    I recently talked with some people about this subject, and we all had different answers, So I want to see what you guys think!

    Are exploits something that Fromsoft should be careful for, and should not be in PvP?

    Or do you think they are a viable tactic to take down your opponent?

    Discuss, Vote, Love each other.


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    Re: Your opinion on exploits such as Dead angling or Lag abuse?

    Post by hey its andres on Thu Jul 25, 2013 9:41 pm

    No screw all of that. I've been playing the game since it came out and only now understood the scope of these exploits and how many people use them. I figure, if I can kill people without using them, then that just makes me better than those that do. Ganking is more honorable in my opinion.


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    Re: Your opinion on exploits such as Dead angling or Lag abuse?

    Post by Wilkinson3424 on Thu Jul 25, 2013 9:46 pm

    I'd agree with that, Ganking is at least something that can be done even with every bug patched in the game.

    Stuff like Lagswitching, and Hacking are really looked down upon, but look at all those Glitch abusers out there. No not the dead anglers or the any of them, that is alright and good for punishing. But I know people who can make their pursuers disappear with lag and you get killed by nothing.

    My opinion though, you do whatever you want in random invasions.


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    Re: Your opinion on exploits such as Dead angling or Lag abuse?

    Post by Devokai on Thu Jul 25, 2013 9:59 pm

    My opinion is that they add another mildly fun level of depth to the mind games of PvP. Especially in the case of dead angles, mastering, and i use that term lightly...dead angles with your weapon/weapons of choice add so much demension to what would otherwise be a parry spammer's game. Without them, most build's only counter to a parry happy player is spacing well, which would only result in annoying chip damage 95% of the time, a backstab, or a combustion to the face. Some people make the argument of kicking being effective against parriers, but more often than not that kick just chews their stamina and they get a partial on that as well.

    Long story short, would you rather get angled or backstabbed. I know which one I'd want if I were a parry fiend.

    And things like reverse rolling and such are a tad silly imo but nothing that's hard to live with. In fact a lot of bad reversers just give me their back for free so -shrugs-

    About abusing lag, I'm not sure what you mean. I've just learned to live with and counter all the little techniques involving lag. Just another constant part of the mental game really. And some of it's due to slightly faulty combat/lock on mechanics but it's no big deal.
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    Re: Your opinion on exploits such as Dead angling or Lag abuse?

    Post by Myztyrio on Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:05 pm

    Option 4.


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    Re: Your opinion on exploits such as Dead angling or Lag abuse?

    Post by Dibsville on Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:09 pm

    Depends on which ones, I may like one but think others are terrible, such as thinking dead angling is ok, but using a soul mass or pursuers with lag is not acceptable.


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    Re: Your opinion on exploits such as Dead angling or Lag abuse?

    Post by hey its andres on Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:27 pm

    If you have a problem with parry spammers, then you take advantage of the free backstab. Simple as that.


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    Re: Your opinion on exploits such as Dead angling or Lag abuse?

    Post by Devokai on Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:33 pm

    No one said I had a problem with them, I just think it makes for a more fun fight when they're forced into worrying about me getting through that little shield and make them actually fight me. I never get parried unless it's a bad controller input. Backstabbing is so lame imo, sure it makes them look stupid, but that's not why I PvP. I PvP to clash wits and blades, not sit there for 10 minutes getting chip damage on a target shield until they finally decide to try something else.
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    Re: Your opinion on exploits such as Dead angling or Lag abuse?

    Post by Wilkinson3424 on Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:36 pm

    I rarely see parry spammers, People are smarter than that, even gankers.



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    Re: Your opinion on exploits such as Dead angling or Lag abuse?

    Post by Acarnatia on Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:37 pm

    Well, dead angling is to soe extent realistic and makes sense. There are a lot of glitches and lag-created affects that are so common as to have basically become a game mechanic on their own-and most of them are really obnoxious, if no flat-out unfair to those who don't abuse them.


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    Re: Your opinion on exploits such as Dead angling or Lag abuse?

    Post by Leet on Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:38 pm

    I don't understand why you would sit there for 10 minutes and doing nothing more than chip damage.

    If i see someone hit L2 at least two times in a row, i know they're going for a parry. I bait the parry, they parry spam, boom backstab. Everytime. Never fails.

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    Re: Your opinion on exploits such as Dead angling or Lag abuse?

    Post by Devokai on Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:40 pm

    Let me clarify, by parry spammer I mean that occasional player that tries nothing but walk up blind parries not really sitting in one spot spamming the parry button repeatedly.

    Also obviously I'm exaggerating the 10 minutes...and I just got through saying I'd rather not use the simple punish of going straight for the stab and ending the match. If it didn't end it they 'd just get up and start turtling most likely.
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    Re: Your opinion on exploits such as Dead angling or Lag abuse?

    Post by KillerGum1 on Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:44 pm

    Anything goes besides hacking and glitching. While I don't try and abuse lag and other "cheap tactics", I consider it part of the game and it is fine to use. You should be prepared for anything and know how to counter everything if you want to survive.


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    Re: Your opinion on exploits such as Dead angling or Lag abuse?

    Post by Emergence on Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:45 pm

    Fortunate accidents that are easily replicated, not game breaking and make sense within a context of game mechanics can be good things when integrated into later official iterations. Happens often with games in general with combos in Street Fighter being an example. As far as it relates to the present Souls landscape, something like dead angles may be pushing it because they can sometimes be downright ludicrous, but I could see something like toggle escape being worked into the official mechanics (with other related tweaks) as a further element of depth that players have to consider and account for which is easily replicated. As it is, it already feels like a natural gameplay extension.


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    Re: Your opinion on exploits such as Dead angling or Lag abuse?

    Post by sparkly-twinkly-lizard on Thu Jul 25, 2013 11:02 pm

    I gotta disagree on toggle escape, stunlock is required for some weapons to be equal to others and toggle escape negates that, though I also think which weapons can stunlock needs some re-working as well, i'd also be fine if dead angles disappeared as long as shield guard break rates were tweaked; seriously taking three hits from a UGS on a small shield is stupid, even taking one on a small shield is stupid imo but that's how it is...


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    Re: Your opinion on exploits such as Dead angling or Lag abuse?

    Post by reim0027 on Thu Jul 25, 2013 11:03 pm

    I'm 100% in favor of dead angles (not WoG though) and toggle escape. They were in DeS as well. Part of me wonders if these "exploits" were left in intentionally. They only add depth to the game and balance things out even better.


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    Re: Your opinion on exploits such as Dead angling or Lag abuse?

    Post by Emergence on Thu Jul 25, 2013 11:06 pm

    I know what you mean sparkly about toggle escape affecting stunlocks which is why I qualified it by saying integrate it with certain related tweaks to balance and keep stunlocks viable in some way.  My fundamental point was more how natural it already feels to tons of players.  It's existence is problematic with current game elements, but I think they can rework the mechanics to account for it and have it be fair.  Dead angles, I'm not sure how you pull that off, useful as they are.


    Last edited by Emergence on Thu Jul 25, 2013 11:07 pm; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: Your opinion on exploits such as Dead angling or Lag abuse?

    Post by Wilkinson3424 on Thu Jul 25, 2013 11:07 pm

    Yeah Dead angling and Toggle escapes... I'm fine with those, they are a tactic to counter shield users or stunlockers and both require skill to preform and have their risks.

    But things ridiculous like I mentioned earlier are downright absurd and need to be patched. Like what reim said, The WoG Dead Angle.

    It's not fair for fat rollers.


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    Re: Your opinion on exploits such as Dead angling or Lag abuse?

    Post by Devokai on Thu Jul 25, 2013 11:08 pm

    On the subject of dead angling being borderline ridiculous at some points. I can agree with that. But there are instances with toggle escaping that are the same way. Like ultra greatswords for example, some guys exploit the swap to make their opponent has landed a stun, and naturally any person using a lock down weapon will go for it once they see that stun and then the swapper proceeds to get an easy parry off. Now that's what I call pushing it.
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    Re: Your opinion on exploits such as Dead angling or Lag abuse?

    Post by reim0027 on Thu Jul 25, 2013 11:11 pm

    I disagree.  It forces you to rely on different tactics.  Do an R1-R1, then dead angle the 3rd R1 (the one they will try to parry).  They can't parry a dead angle.  Or, do a R1-R1 and pivot BS (especially if they are using a buckler.  Take advantage of their attempt to do a setup parry.  Worse comes to worse, just do an R1-R1 and enjoy the free damage as they fail to set you up.

    Adds depth and strategy. Prevents spamming of moves. That's why I like it.


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    Re: Your opinion on exploits such as Dead angling or Lag abuse?

    Post by Forum Pirate on Thu Jul 25, 2013 11:15 pm

    If you are not a developer of the game or cannot produce proof that the devs did anything intentionally/unintentionally, I call any assertion that you prefer to play the game "as intended" presumptious, unfounded and illogical.


    That said, it depends on the "exploit." The determining factor is their relative power.

    One who does not dead angle may (or may not, depending) have a disadvantage facing someone who does dead angle, and it is in no way a required tactic to overcome its users, thus the technique is not inherently bad for the game.

    Anyone not using the dragon head/spell swap glitch is at a tremendous disadvantage facing someone who is, almost to the point of it being impossible to overcome without using it oneself (assuming similar skill levels). This means that the entire game and all viable tactics have been effectively reduced to: dragon head glitch/spell swap, and overcentralising in that manner is bad for the game. It makes it shallow, and (despite what some people will tell you) shallow games don't tend to last long.

    Before anyone brings up cod as a counter point, go look at the wiki. There is detailed data on the weapons spread patterns and effective ranges, and all this should be taken into account (and there are a lot of weapons) in any given encounter. Its fast paced, and certainly not deep (risk anyone?) but its not actually shallow either.





    That said, fat rolling or not, if you turn the opposite direction the dead angleing player is facing, you can block their dead angle attempt. Dead angle wog isn't "dodge or die"

     

    In a similar vein, the "invisible pursuers" is only possible to do intentionally (to my knowledge) for the host. This is also bad, as it is unfair (not potentially available to both players in any given encounter)


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    Re: Your opinion on exploits such as Dead angling or Lag abuse?

    Post by Saturday-Saint on Fri Jul 26, 2013 1:09 am

    Whether or not something should be considered acceptable for PvP, it should not be relevant that it is a glitch.


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    Re: Your opinion on exploits such as Dead angling or Lag abuse?

    Post by Animaaal on Fri Jul 26, 2013 1:24 am

    4, the obvious choice is 4, 4 me Coffee! 

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    Re: Your opinion on exploits such as Dead angling or Lag abuse?

    Post by Jansports on Fri Jul 26, 2013 1:26 am

    I still can't ignore that FROM has fixed several bugs that in some way impacted PvP across both DeS and DaS. And that Dead Angles and Toggle Escapes where in DeS, known about and their reappearance in DaS and their persistence of not being patched out over the length of time that they've been known about and used leads me to believe that FROM is okay with their existence as a part of the game that players have learned to use/counter.

    My Issue with Inviso pursuers is that there is no Recourse for it. There is nothing player B can do if player A is using that particular technique. With no indication it's even happening What could easily be enough damage to kill an average build happens. It's close to the very definition of unfair in the game world. Only Hosts can perform it, there is no reliable way to stop it or overcome it, and it will often result in an advantage so large a victory is all but assured (if it didn't outright end the fight)
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    Re: Your opinion on exploits such as Dead angling or Lag abuse?

    Post by sparkly-twinkly-lizard on Fri Jul 26, 2013 2:18 am

    I think part of the reason toggle and DA's weren't fixed from des to dks is the fact that both games use the same engine, dks2 has a new engine and there have already been rumors that toggle escape doesn't work, after all toggle is a matter of animation priorities being miscalculated and DA's are a miscalculation of attack angle, these seem like the sort of thing a new "more flexible" engine would fix as far as I know.


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