Dead Angling. Good or bad????

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    Are you okay with dead angling?

    [ 29 ]
    50% [50%] 
    [ 7 ]
    12% [12%] 
    [ 10 ]
    17% [17%] 
    [ 6 ]
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    [ 6 ]
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    Dead Angling. Good or bad????

    Post by Samurainova on Mon Jan 14, 2013 12:06 am

    Hey guys, heres and interesting subject, at least for me. How do you guys feel about dead angling??? I've never actually addressed it. I always here complaints about almost every thing but ive NEVER heard any about dead angling until recently. Do you think dead angling is bad, or are you fine with it. What about dead angling in game objects like trees, or pillars. Is it okay as long as not overused? Or completely unacceptable. And this is dead angling with normal weapons, none of that WOTG pivoting stuff. Please post your opinions i would love to hear what everyone has to say about it happy
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    Re: Dead Angling. Good or bad????

    Post by DemonOfFate on Mon Jan 14, 2013 12:35 am

    It's in the Neutral zone for me. Good for countering turtles, But it makes no sense to take 500+ damage when i clearly blocked.


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    Re: Dead Angling. Good or bad????

    Post by ChizFreak on Mon Jan 14, 2013 12:35 am

    You make too many polls man. Just my opinion. I vote Neutral. I'm okay with them, but they should tweak them so we can't do unreal things like attacking while giving your back and hitting them through shield.

    Now dead angling in it's essence, attacking someone from the sides or behind while he is just raising his shield looking other direction, that's okay and it makes sense.


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    Re: Dead Angling. Good or bad????

    Post by ChizFreak on Mon Jan 14, 2013 12:36 am

    DemonOfFate wrote:It's in the Neutral zone for me. Good for countering turtles, But it makes no sense to take 500+ damage when i clearly blocked.

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    Re: Dead Angling. Good or bad????

    Post by Samurainova on Mon Jan 14, 2013 12:42 am

    ChizFreak wrote:You make too many polls man. Just my opinion. I vote Neutral. I'm okay with them, but they should tweak them so we can't do unreal things like attacking while giving your back and hitting them through shield.

    Now dead angling in it's essence, attacking someone from the sides or behind while he is just raising his shield looking other direction, that's okay and it makes sense.

    Yeah that would make since, i found that a lot of dead angling is actually done on accident. Ill find myself hitting someone through their shield and it wasn't on purpose. Mostly when they back stab fish however. Thanks for your comments happy
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    Re: Dead Angling. Good or bad????

    Post by Ghadis_God on Mon Jan 14, 2013 12:46 am

    Dead Angling is actually necessary for balance. It's difficult to learn and pull off, but it provides one of the only ways to deal with turtles- otherwise the meta would be full of people hiding behind their shields to either poke with a spear or bs fish, both of which are only counterable with dead angles if you don't have a bleed weapon. It's a bit of an exploit, but so is toggle escape and I don't hear anybody complaining about that.


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    Re: Dead Angling. Good or bad????

    Post by Samurainova on Mon Jan 14, 2013 12:49 am

    Ghadis_God wrote:Dead Angling is actually necessary for balance. It's difficult to learn and pull off, but it provides one of the only ways to deal with turtles- otherwise the meta would be full of people hiding behind their shields to either poke with a spear or bs fish, both of which are only counterable with dead angles if you don't have a bleed weapon. It's a bit of an exploit, but so is toggle escape and I don't hear anybody complaining about that.

    I gues it just not a mainstream issue for most. Thanks for your viewpoint i appreciate it happy
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    Re: Dead Angling. Good or bad????

    Post by ublug on Mon Jan 14, 2013 1:00 am

    I'm fine with some, but not with others.
    - Reverse force/wotg. This is a bug and imho clearly an exploit. The nature of those spells should not be dependent on which way you face when casting.
    - Dead angling by turning your character while standing in front of the opponents shield should not be possible either. But I'm more neutral on this one, especially when I compare it to other borderline techniques (coupled with lag).
    - Dead angling by running/jumping past the opponent and hitting them from behind with a weapon with a wide swing. This is not what I would consider a dead angle, since you are actually hitting them in the back. I'm fine with this.
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    Re: Dead Angling. Good or bad????

    Post by Forum Pirate on Mon Jan 14, 2013 1:06 am

    Ghadis_God wrote:Dead Angling is actually necessary for balance. It's difficult to learn and pull off, but it provides one of the only ways to deal with turtles- otherwise the meta would be full of people hiding behind their shields to either poke with a spear or bs fish, both of which are only counterable with dead angles if you don't have a bleed weapon. It's a bit of an exploit, but so is toggle escape and I don't hear anybody complaining about that.
    This.

    I have a mlbh build. Unless I'm tagged mid cast, its dead angle or die.

    If there was a more effective anti-turtling method than kicking then it could go away, but as of now its a decent substitute for grabs, and easier to balance too.

    I'll give ulbug that force/wog/dragon roar probably shouldn't be able to do it.


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    Re: Dead Angling. Good or bad????

    Post by Aznul on Mon Jan 14, 2013 1:11 am

    I only encountered this at most twice so far. Personally I don't like the idea of using what is quite possibly a glitch or overlooked physics interaction to allow weapons or spells to bypass shields when they weren't meant to, especially when many players won't expect it. If I am using a crest shield, and I get invaded by someone spamming WotG, I expect to be able to block most of it, not be hit full force just because they decided to turn around. Though I do believe it can be countered, it is quite obscure and glitch-like, which means you will likely die to it several times before you are fully aware of it.

    It just feels like a hole in the combat mechanics that is being abused, furthering the cutthroat nature of pvp which can turn away newer players. It is something that would never, or almost never, be encountered in pve, therefore making players completely unaware of it until they encounter it in pvp or see it mentioned in a guide or forum. While that alone doesn't make it bad, the part about it being a hole in the mechanics tips it in favor of being a somewhat unreasonable abuse of the system.

    Now what I am talking about is mostly the WotG dead angle, if someone is hit somewhere other than their shield, that is entirely fair.


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    Re: Dead Angling. Good or bad????

    Post by ChizFreak on Mon Jan 14, 2013 1:14 am

    ublug wrote:I'm fine with some, but not with others.
    - Reverse force/wotg. This is a bug and imho clearly an exploit. The nature of those spells should not be dependent on which way you face when casting.
    - Dead angling by turning your character while standing in front of the opponents shield should not be possible either. But I'm more neutral on this one, especially when I compare it to other borderline techniques (coupled with lag).
    - Dead angling by running/jumping past the opponent and hitting them from behind with a weapon with a wide swing. This is not what I would consider a dead angle, since you are actually hitting them in the back. I'm fine with this.

    I agree with everything you said.

    Anyway most people that support dead-angle give reasons like "it's hard to pull off" or "it's the only way to counter turtles".

    Well, you have:

    • Sorceries, unless they are using Havel's Shield, you will *** them up if they are turtilng.
    • Miracles, offensive miracles have good range so they are great, and there isn't any possible way in the game to turtle against Lighting Spears (you can't turtle with Effigy Shield)
    • Bleed, but it's true a good turtle will counter attack, that's why I believe in the next game we should get bleed attached to standard throwing knives. Anyway they don't have infinite stamina so when they are trying to recover attack.
    • Since the patch 1.06, the amount of stamina consumed when attacking with the shield raised has been considerably increased. So the above step is even easier, and it makes it harder for turtles to last for a long time.
    • The most important tool against a turtle, THE SHOTEL. You don't need any explanations with this. It's great.
    • A not so known tool against them, it's to use the hyper-poise buffs: Iron Flesh or Havel's Shield's buff. Both of these buffs, makes any attack that hits you to bounce of you, staggering your opponent. With this, you can get close to your opponent, wait for them to attack once, then punish and hopefully stunlock them. Even if they attack you with their shield raised, they will be staggered. Obviously Havel's Shield's Buff is far better because it's doesn't slow you down as Iron Flesh, but no everyone can use it. Still, a good turtle stays against a wall so he isn't BSed, you can use this against him casting Iron Flesh, he won't be able to BS you because he will be cornered, as long as you don't give him the chance, he won't escape.
    • EDIT: Thanks to Aznul, I forgot, Toxin and Poison of course!
    LOL I should copy all this info and put into a thread, "ChizFreak's guide against turtles".


    Last edited by ChizFreak on Mon Jan 14, 2013 1:19 am; edited 2 times in total


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    Re: Dead Angling. Good or bad????

    Post by ChizFreak on Mon Jan 14, 2013 1:16 am

    Forum Pirate wrote:
    Ghadis_God wrote:Dead Angling is actually necessary for balance. It's difficult to learn and pull off, but it provides one of the only ways to deal with turtles- otherwise the meta would be full of people hiding behind their shields to either poke with a spear or bs fish, both of which are only counterable with dead angles if you don't have a bleed weapon. It's a bit of an exploit, but so is toggle escape and I don't hear anybody complaining about that.
    This.

    I have a mlbh build. Unless I'm tagged mid cast, its dead angle or die.

    If there was a more effective anti-turtling method than kicking then it could go away, but as of now its a decent substitute for grabs, and easier to balance too.

    I'll give ulbug that force/wog/dragon roar probably shouldn't be able to do it.

    You can't possibly want to be able to beat anything with an specialized build now, wouldn't you? There has to be a counter to everything. Also, read my previous post. There are several tools available for everyone.


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    Re: Dead Angling. Good or bad????

    Post by The Letter X on Mon Jan 14, 2013 1:17 am

    I believe dead angling is near perfect, even if unintentional. A skilled fighter should be able to find his away around his opponent's guard. If it was unintentional, then his opponent was probably in a bad position for the attack - probably off balance or unprepared.

    I use my imagination a bit for dead angling, so I think it's okay.


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    Re: Dead Angling. Good or bad????

    Post by Aznul on Mon Jan 14, 2013 1:19 am

    They may do significantly less damage, but you can also use poison and toxic, in addition to what has already been mentioned. Saying that dead angling is the "only way to counter turtles" is simply refusing to change equipment or be remotely resourceful.


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    Re: Dead Angling. Good or bad????

    Post by ChizFreak on Mon Jan 14, 2013 1:20 am

    Aznul wrote:They may do significantly less damage, but you can also use poison and toxic, in addition to what has already been mentioned. Saying that dead angling is the "only way to counter turtles" is simply refusing to change equipment or be remotely resourceful.

    Exactly what I mean, also I forgot to write that in my list to counter turtles, I will add it. Pirate sounds like he wants a way to counter everything. For that we already have Backstabbing.


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    Re: Dead Angling. Good or bad????

    Post by Carphil on Mon Jan 14, 2013 1:22 am

    Its the only way to counter turtles.





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    Re: Dead Angling. Good or bad????

    Post by Ghadis_God on Mon Jan 14, 2013 1:23 am

    The thing is though, you shouldn't be getting dead angled if you know what you're doing. An opponent running up to kissing distance and turning his back to attack is an easy opening that easily exploited by anyone who isn't cowering behind their shield. It teaches new players that turtling is not a viable tactic and forces them to actually evolve their PvP game if they want to stand a chance. In fact, I couldn't use a UGS if dead angling did not exist because every time I swung my weapon, the opponent could block and instantly retaliate with a dex weapon before I had a chance to recover from the swing. If they know I can potentially void their block and counter their attack, they're going to be a little more careful about running into the swing arc of a inhumanly massive weapon. WoG dead angling is a bit more unfair since it has a massive range compared to melee, provides no openings, takes no skill to learn or perform, and completely nullifies the only recourse against WoG left to heavier toons. It harms balance rather than restores it.


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    Re: Dead Angling. Good or bad????

    Post by Forum Pirate on Mon Jan 14, 2013 1:28 am

    Those are situational at best and all easily avoided.

    It shouldn't require a small set of weapons to counter a decent turtle. Most weapons will deadangle, so having a way to effectively counter turtles (which poison/toxic is not as its laughably easy to avoid) on hand is fairly easy.

    Exploit or no (i think its intentional in the absence of throws) it is much better for balance ATM than them not being there.

    Also note that its a mistake to keep the shield up all the time, and decent (not even good, just don't suck) turtles manage stamina well and know what not to block (or use colathary ring) so you'll never guard break them either.


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    Re: Dead Angling. Good or bad????

    Post by Samurainova on Mon Jan 14, 2013 1:31 am

    Forum Pirate wrote:Those are situational at best and all easily avoided.

    It shouldn't require a small set of weapons to counter a decent turtle. Most weapons will deadangle, so having a way to effectively counter turtles (which poison/toxic is not as its laughably easy to avoid) on hand is fairly easy.

    Exploit or no (i think its intentional in the absence of throws) it is much better for balance ATM than them not being there.

    Also note that its a mistake to keep the shield up all the time, and decent (not even good, just don't suck) turtles manage stamina well and know what not to block (or use colathary ring) so you'll never guard break them either.

    Theirs also the shotel, and the gold tracer to deal with turtlers happy

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    Re: Dead Angling. Good or bad????

    Post by ChizFreak on Mon Jan 14, 2013 1:41 am

    Forum Pirate wrote:Those are situational at best and all easily avoided.

    It shouldn't require a small set of weapons to counter a decent turtle. Most weapons will deadangle, so having a way to effectively counter turtles (which poison/toxic is not as its laughably easy to avoid) on hand is fairly easy.

    Exploit or no (i think its intentional in the absence of throws) it is much better for balance ATM than them not being there.

    Also note that its a mistake to keep the shield up all the time, and decent (not even good, just don't suck) turtles manage stamina well and know what not to block (or use colathary ring) so you'll never guard break them either.

    They are not situational. I give you all the possible tools to counter turtles without dead angling. All tools can be used by common character archetypes (INT,STR,DEX,FTH). Throw-able items can be used by anyone. As I said, you just seem to want to be able to counter turtles with anything you might be carrying, and that's just "not right".

    If you don't want to make the effort of actually acquiring someway (which everyone can, and it's fairly easy) to counter a turtle, then you have to deal with it with what you have, not with an exploit (it's an exploit, WoG,Force bugs proves it).

    Oh and what you said about blocking, it's ridiculously hard to break someone's guard yeah, but they can't attack forever thanks to the big nerf to stamina cost I mentioned, so when they are trying to recover stamina you need to attack because they won't be able to counter attack. They will have to choose, attack, or block. That's your opportunity.


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    Re: Dead Angling. Good or bad????

    Post by Forum Pirate on Mon Jan 14, 2013 1:48 am

    Shoel is weak, the r2 is slow and highly telegraphed and bleed dodge ruins that theory.

    Besides, without deadangles ever build is essentialy required to have a shotel or magic (not that either work on good turtles) to counter turtles. Thats called centeralising gameplay. The question is no longer "how do I win" its "how do I avoid being mualled by a turtle" and seperates effective builds into 3 groups, turtles, counter turtles (who arn't restricted to counter turtle weapon) and people who lose to both.

    This destroys variety, and lack of variety significantly shortens a games lifespan.


    As I said, toxic is hilariously easy to avoid and requiring magic to deal with a turtle is unreasonable at best. (not that it works, magic telegraphs to well for that) The wog/force thing proves nothing. It could be intention there to or simply a bug tied with allowing it for everything else.

    If there were effective ways to deal with turtles who arn't braindead (ie grabs, or generally lower shield stability and/or


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    Re: Dead Angling. Good or bad????

    Post by Forum Pirate on Mon Jan 14, 2013 1:50 am

    stamina regeneration then I'd be cool with them being gone, but as Is they're important as the only viable way to handle turtles who have any idea what they're doing.


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    Re: Dead Angling. Good or bad????

    Post by ClassicBlaze on Mon Jan 14, 2013 2:02 am

    I dont bother using a shield so I dont know if they are intended to happen or if its just lag that makes them possible, I also dont know how annoying they can be... but Its a legit way to deal with turtles so I kinda want to stay neutral about it but I never put much though to it.


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    Re: Dead Angling. Good or bad????

    Post by cloudyeki on Mon Jan 14, 2013 2:06 am

    I should way in, since I've been known to take advantage of it.

    It adds a bit more depth to Pvp, not just because it goes through shields, but also gives me the option of striking my opponent in a moment they think they're safe, like an attempted BS or the end of their roll. And it's not too difficult to learn, or fight against. Now, dead angles in a location with limited lock-on, that's a *****.


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    Re: Dead Angling. Good or bad????

    Post by ChizFreak on Mon Jan 14, 2013 2:08 am

    I don't agree with you Forum Pirate, sorry. There is no point in arguing between us from this point onwards about this subject.


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