trolololololo

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    Why do you think people grief in Dark souls pvp?

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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by Forum Pirate on Thu Sep 27, 2012 8:05 pm

    My closing coment is aimed at mark.

    As I said, I don't believe in an absolute moral standing. What is wrong for me is only wrong for me, I cannot judge others actions as wrong because I don't know wether or not their own morals permit it.

    My family is generally of similar opinions to me, all can fight for the same reason. My mother attended the police acadamy, my brother does judo, my sisters can all shoot and are never far from a gun (though I'd prefer they practiced a martial art)

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not blaiming the victims for the actions of others. I'm blaiming them for their own failure to defend themselves or those close to them. Its a big difference.

    The bottom line is, the establichment or loved ones may or may not be there to protect you or get you what you want. Thus the only person one should rely on is oneself. If you want something, a job, food, saftey for youself or others, get it. Work for it, earn it. If you fail to work hard enough to get it, you don't deserve it. Freedom is no different. If one would rather be safe than free, then when someone threatens ones freedom, one will lose it untill such a time as they are willing earn it back.


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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by Siegfried. on Thu Sep 27, 2012 8:46 pm

    That attitude benefits those with the capacity to defend themselves, but not everyone is able-bodied, able-minded or benefiting from circumstances that allow them to make use of their strengths. There's a lot more to consider, but my main objection is that such an attitude throws responsibility on the victims of poor fortune rather than the perpetrators of it.

    The biggest way this comes through in our society is via **** culture. There's a tendency for people to put blame on the victim -- "she shouldn't have been drinking" or "she shouldn't have been walking home alone at night". And then there's the attitude where someone might "deserve" it because of their other deeds, like sleeping around, flirtiness, revealing dress sense or other factors. But all of these things deflect blame from the perpetrator. Perhaps it's true that any given victim of **** could have made a different choice and they might have avoided their suffering, but that doesn't change the fact that the perpetrator made the choice to do the wrong thing, completely, and that many people bring the victim up as suspect instead. This is common from domestic settings to the court rooms.

    And that's just one kind of crime. Assault, theft, all those things are often blamed on the victim rather than the ones who actually committed them. I certainly agree that if someone can take up martial arts, weapons training and the like, they should do so in order to increase their chances of remaining safe. I have done those things myself. But failing to do those things doesn't mean someone failed in their responsibility or that they deserved what happened to them. What went wrong is that someone else decided to do something wrong, and that person ought to be held accountable rather than the victim.

    This is heavy stuff coming from a Dark Souls discussion, but since the topic has been related to more universal concepts of responsibility and justice, I thought I may as well add my currency to it.

    Edit: Alright, seems the forum doesn't like a word up there. It's that word we use for non-consensual sexual activity forced by some means by one or many people on another. Begins with "r", ends in "e" and rhymes with "ape".
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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by Cheesinator on Thu Sep 27, 2012 9:03 pm

    Has anyone touched on whether some forms of griefing (ie, things like flipping the bridges in Catacombs so that Patches walks to his death, with no interaction from the host player) are simply exploiting the game in the same manner as a glitch?

    Things that exploit the game's programming, were probably not intended by its makers, permanently worsen the experience of the hosts playthrough and (in some instances) do not even require the host to do anything are pretty dire in my opinion. A totally different level to simply tricking the host into attacking NPCs or killing them in inventive ways.


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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by cloudyeki on Thu Sep 27, 2012 9:22 pm

    Well Cheese, the difference between using your environment like that and just glitching is that it was placed in as it is. Those switches are also some of the ways you can defend yourself from invaders as well, and it adds more depth to the survival aspect of the game.

    NPC killing is a form of griefing, because they mostly tend to go for important NPCs (Solaire, merchants, blacksmiths etc etc...) and glitching as you said is exploiting bugs in the game for your own advantage.


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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by Forum Pirate on Thu Sep 27, 2012 9:26 pm

    Spoilering my response for people who are tired of seeing the philosophical debate

    Spoiler:
    It is a risk associated with those actions. Just like going human, if you run the risk then thats on you.

    I'm not supporting someone taking advantage of it, given the option I would fight to defent their saftey myself (and have in 2 cases actually)

    Again, I'm not blaiming the victim for anything beyond their own failure. They failed to protect whatever it was they desired. Thats on them. The situation and its outcome are not soley their fualt. Just as they failed to defend whatever it happens to be, so the other person initated a conflict to get what they wanted. It may even be less the victims fualt than the aggressor, in fact it probably is, but the blame for the outcome of the event is shared.

    It might not have been reasonable or fesable for the defeated party to have done anything about their failure, but that is irrellvant. It is a failure none the less. Its not fair, but life isn't fair.

    There is no wrong unless the perpitrator believes it so. Your view is one sided, it encourages accountability only on the part of the person who is "wrong." I've yet to see anything qualified to determine an absolute right or wrong, or capable of determining wether an action falls into either catagory. So what you are doing is imposing your idea of wrong on others instead of letting them decide for themselves.

    Just as the aggressor is responsible for his/her actions, so is the victim responsible for theirs.


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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by Cheesinator on Thu Sep 27, 2012 9:40 pm

    Doesn't that fly in the face (somewhat) of what griefing is? These guys invade other players with the sole intention of making them unhappy; they are TRYING to do what they know is wrong. It is a similar mentality to a rapist (note: I am not for one second comparing the two actions in terms of severity...just suggesting the base mindset behind them is similar).

    cloudyeki wrote:Well Cheese, the difference between using your environment like that and just glitching is that it was placed in as it is. Those switches are also some of the ways you can defend yourself from invaders as well, and it adds more depth to the survival aspect of the game.

    NPC killing is a form of griefing, because they mostly tend to go for important NPCs (Solaire, merchants, blacksmiths etc etc...) and glitching as you said is exploiting bugs in the game for your own advantage.

    But that's what I'm saying; stuff like Patches being pre-programmed to start walking and the invader being able to flip a switch to kill him is pretty damn close to a bug. I'd agree that getting a host to fire a Soul Arrow at an NPC is something else entirely (still mean-spirited, but relying on the host making a real mistake), but when the host is removed from the equation completely, and the invader can still take advantage of the game's flaws to ruin their playthrough...I reckon it's a fairly serious problem.


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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by Knight Alundil on Thu Sep 27, 2012 9:44 pm

    Cheesinator wrote:But that's what I'm saying; stuff like Patches being pre-programmed to start walking and the invader being able to flip a switch to kill him is pretty damn close to a bug. I'd agree that getting a host to fire a Soul Arrow at an NPC is something else entirely (still mean-spirited, but relying on the host making a real mistake), but when the host is removed from the equation completely, and the invader can still take advantage of the game's flaws to ruin their playthrough...I reckon it's a fairly serious problem.

    With the amount of things that From has already patched they would have fixed this if it was unintentional from the start.

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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by Forum Pirate on Thu Sep 27, 2012 10:31 pm

    again, I'll save space

    Spoiler:
    @ cheese No. I seriously doubt griefers (or most anyone else) do anything they really believe to be wrong. They may know you others think its wrong, but that doesn't mean they do. beliefs are also subject to change with time, perspective, emotion or a mind altering substance.

    I cannot speak for certain, as I am no shrink, but studies tend to dissagree with your theory cheese.

    They are most likely trying to do whatever it is they feel like doing, and you happen to believe it is wrong. In some cases they're doing it just to bother you because you believe it to be wrong, in which case you reacting is validating their efforts and continuing the cycle. That puts the power in your hands, if you wish them to stop then deny them the pleasure.

    (fyi studdies show that **** specifically is usually about power and control, not breaking rules just to break rules. I will not discuss that particular subject further as its potentially quite volitile. )


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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by Rynn on Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:22 pm

    Forum Pirate wrote:beliefs are also subject to change with time, perspective, emotion or a mind altering substance.
    Anyone remember when a good 80% of you thought Martyre was a jerk because he'd backstab, chainstab, etc etc? He changed, and since then so have you.
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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by lordgodofhell on Fri Sep 28, 2012 9:28 am

    :face: mmmm Dat 14 page unlocked thread.... Spicy Goodness!


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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by Knight Alundil on Fri Sep 28, 2012 9:34 am

    Rynn wrote:
    Forum Pirate wrote:beliefs are also subject to change with time, perspective, emotion or a mind altering substance.
    Anyone remember when a good 80% of you thought Martyre was a jerk because he'd backstab, chainstab, etc etc? He changed, and since then so have you.

    Sorry, could you expand on your point? I'm not really sure what you're getting at with this.

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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by VinheimProfessor on Fri Sep 28, 2012 10:17 am

    They want to have fun, and that is how many of them do it. The game somewhat encourages this by omission; you have an item that removes friendly phantoms from your world but not dark phantoms, for example. And I think griefing is a problem, but the main problem is no easy way for the 'victim' to choose when invasion is welcome or not.


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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by Knight Alundil on Fri Sep 28, 2012 10:21 am

    VinheimProfessor wrote:They want to have fun, and that is how many of them do it. The game somewhat encourages this by omission; you have an item that removes friendly phantoms from your world but not dark phantoms, for example. And I think griefing is a problem, but the main problem is no easy way for the 'victim' to choose when invasion is welcome or not.

    There is a system for that: being human and being hollow. I'm not assuming this is what you're going to say but it is everyone elses response so before you say "But people use being human for many other things" well yes they do, and being invaded is the con to all the pros you get from being human.

    And if you really want to play as human without being invaded play in offline mode!

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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by Rynn on Fri Sep 28, 2012 10:27 am

    Knight Alundil wrote:
    Rynn wrote:
    Forum Pirate wrote:beliefs are also subject to change with time, perspective, emotion or a mind altering substance.
    Anyone remember when a good 80% of you thought Martyre was a jerk because he'd backstab, chainstab, etc etc? He changed, and since then so have you.

    Sorry, could you expand on your point? I'm not really sure what you're getting at with this.
    Forum made a quote about how different people think different things are fun, and their opinions change over time.

    Marty is a perfect, real example of this. He used to backstab, fish, and do nearly whatever was required to win, and he found it fun. And he wasn't wrong. Then he changed and started playing closer to how we play, and he found it fun too. Marty wasn't wrong when he was "being a jerk", nor was he wrong when he was "having fun"
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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by Knight Alundil on Fri Sep 28, 2012 10:29 am

    Rynn wrote:
    Knight Alundil wrote:
    Rynn wrote:
    Forum Pirate wrote:beliefs are also subject to change with time, perspective, emotion or a mind altering substance.
    Anyone remember when a good 80% of you thought Martyre was a jerk because he'd backstab, chainstab, etc etc? He changed, and since then so have you.

    Sorry, could you expand on your point? I'm not really sure what you're getting at with this.
    Forum made a quote about how different people think different things are fun, and their opinions change over time.

    Marty is a perfect, real example of this. He used to backstab, fish, and do nearly whatever was required to win, and he found it fun. And he wasn't wrong. Then he changed and started playing closer to how we play, and he found it fun too. Marty wasn't wrong when he was "being a jerk", nor was he wrong when he was "having fun"

    Soooo you're agreeing with us now then?? big grin

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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by Rynn on Fri Sep 28, 2012 10:30 am

    I don't think i picked a side in this debate. I usually come in, and pick one detail i don't agree with, and speak about it. I've on other forums been seen arguing with both sides of an issue as a result.
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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by Knight Alundil on Fri Sep 28, 2012 10:31 am

    Oh. Okay then. :|

    Edit: I've just looked back and you made comments saying things like if someone doesn't care that they're ruining someone elses experience they're not mature enough for this game.

    That sounds like picking a side to me, but it's cool I guess.

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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by Rynn on Fri Sep 28, 2012 10:45 am

    The post that reply is to, prior to it being edited, deserved the statement i gave it. If a person is litterally incapable of comprehending that there is another person playing the game, and their actions might be negatively impacting them, they were not old enough to purchase the game.

    I don't even mean that as an insult, this game isn't rated E, i'm fine with kids playing it, but if they are too stupid to know there is other people playing the game, they can get off. If they just don't -care- that other people don't like what they are doing, then fine. I don't like them as a person, but that's cool... but doesn't understand other people are playing the game at all? I seriously hope i'd been misreading your post, because what i was quoting was just a blind "what they don't know they can't be blamed for" defense that never held up anywhere i've been.

    i do note i've been countering a lot of your points, and that's why you probably think i picked a side... but my first post in this thread was "Because griefing is fun". I'm arguing with everyone when they post things i disagree with.
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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by Knight Alundil on Fri Sep 28, 2012 10:47 am

    You're right in your hopes. All I ever said was that if someone doesn't care you cant fault them for it so I think you did misread.


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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by Hellion7776 on Fri Sep 28, 2012 11:58 am

    WOW, this thread really went nuts.

    IMO, low level invading in of itself isn't anything to worry about...
    BUT, luring players into killing NPCs/Vendors, and effectively ruining peoples playthru... That is total griefing... Hopping in at lvl 10 and running around with a dark hand sucking newbs dry, that is griefing. Spinning the tower in Anor Londo while killing the players so all their work is undone... that is griefing.
    Killing people one time, and them having 15 minutes to recover isn't a huge deal even if they are sick little children burning ant hills with a magnifying glass... but getting the player to kill Spell and Item vendors so that they have no choice but to restart their game... those people can die in a fire for all I care.


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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by IV_Mark_VI on Fri Sep 28, 2012 12:00 pm

    I think, using the definition that Griefers are people that cause people Grief, can only affect newish players.

    No invasion will set me back at my skill level, regardless of whether I can win or not due to OP gear.


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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by sonofartorias on Fri Sep 28, 2012 12:23 pm

    they have no soul and there humanity has long since been taking by people with lives so now they are doomed to wonder aim less on internet chat rooms forums and online games


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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by Lord of Ash on Fri Sep 28, 2012 1:06 pm

    Anything in dark souls is acceptible aside from modding the game is about dying (Prepare to die), it doesnt matter how or who. Griefing, ganking, double backstabbing, healing, staggering, Spamming spells, running, ambushing, sniping, dodging, its all part of the game and I know some people have created this sense of medival honor and duel, but some people are in it to fight and shed blood by any means


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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by sonofartorias on Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:57 pm

    LordofAsh wrote:Anything in dark souls is acceptible aside from modding the game is about dying (Prepare to die), it doesnt matter how or who. Griefing, ganking, double backstabbing, healing, staggering, Spamming spells, running, ambushing, sniping, dodging, its all part of the game and I know some people have created this sense of medival honor and duel, but some people are in it to fight and shed blood by any means



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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by Knight Alundil on Fri Sep 28, 2012 7:05 pm

    That's what this thread has devolved to? You make a point, someone disagrees and instead of adressing his points you just pass him off as a loser? Nice. Real mature man.


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