trolololololo

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    Why do you think people grief in Dark souls pvp?

    [ 6 ]
    8% [8%] 
    [ 26 ]
    37% [37%] 
    [ 9 ]
    13% [13%] 
    [ 9 ]
    13% [13%] 
    [ 21 ]
    29% [29%] 

    Total Votes: 71
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    somnam
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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by somnam on Wed Sep 26, 2012 11:58 pm

    Forum, aren't the actions and qualities displayed a result of that person expressing themselves? I don't see why a person and their choices should be viewed separately when those choices aren't being forced by circumstances.
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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by WyrmHero on Wed Sep 26, 2012 11:58 pm

    Forum Pirate wrote:You seem to be missing my point, but I don't really want to argue (we're not but it could go that way in a hurry.)

    I'll leave it at this; as I said earlier, there is no right or wrong here. They are free to enjoy the game as they see fit, as is everyone. If you don't enjoy dealing with them, then don't, or decide wether you'd rather play with others or avoid griefers. Fairly simple.

    I agree with this, but if we're talking about the BB glitch grievers, its not fair to be impartial for their behavior, because they're cheating. If they're grieving without the glitch, I would be ok because well they have to work hard for that. (SL 20 Kings? That's admirable).


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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by Forum Pirate on Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:13 am

    Irrelivant wyrm. Its the same thing.

    I was saying tolvo, that there arn't positive or negative traits. Only traits.

    I strive not to judge, to assign positive or negative qualities to things which posess none. I don't dislike people, I simply have no interest in them, because I wouldn't enjoy our exchange.

    My suggestion to dislike the aspect rather than the person is an extension of that.

    Traits are like songs. Just because I don't like it doesn't make it bad, nor does my liking it make it good. Its neither. I find it pleasant and seek it out, or i don't and either ignore or avoid it.

    Similarly, traits, even people, are neither good nor bad. There are simply those you enjoy dealing with and those you don't.

    Right, actually done now. My ability to express myself has run out.


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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by Tolvo on Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:16 am

    Actually in psychology negative traits are defined as social traits that cause others displeasure, while positive ones cause others pleasure. So by definition they do exist. People typically contain a similar amount but some contain more so one over the other causing them to be dubbed with such personalities.
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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by Siegfried. on Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:17 am

    Forum Pirate wrote:This is such a biased poll it isn't even funny.

    I don't grief, but I cannot, nor can I condone, judging someone base on their choices in a game.

    Its how they have fun, its their right as they paid for the game. Deal with it.

    The other issue here is that over a million other people also paid for the game, and since the online and offline play are mingled, griefers can ruin anyone else's experience -- remember, the one they paid for -- at random. So that argument cuts both ways, given that griefing damages the experience many of us paid good money for.
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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by Forum Pirate on Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:34 am

    What causes others pleasure or displeasure is subjective. If I went around punching people to establish dominance I promise you I wouldn't get a mile before someone enjoyed it.

    Overly friendly people bother me to no end, despite most people seeming to like them very much.

    Thus those definitons are proven subjective (even more so than most) and so meaningless.



    @sig yes, but they are responsible for preserving their own enjoyment, as i stated. peoples Ideas of fun are bound to conflict. Not everyone can enjoy themselves at the same time in a competitive enviroment.

    My cop out example was that I don't enjoy losing. Now that I've said that, you beating me is intentionally ruining my fun. Are you now obligated to let me win?


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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by Tolvo on Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:38 am

    Except in Personality Psychology such ideas are important, so I suppose you are saying an entire branch of psychology is meaningless?

    I suppose your argument is just that everything is meaningless, we should have no opinions or ideas, have no social structure, and have no regard for others? I'm not a fan of that level of anarchy.

    In this world just being muscular and tough does not make a way for you in the world. We are a social species, interacting with others is far more important to where you will end up in life rather than just muscling through others.
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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by Forum Pirate on Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:50 am

    Yeah, you've definitely missed my point. (well, points)

    This why I avoid people. I just can't seem to be clear enough.


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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by Tolvo on Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:54 am

    I think a simple way to put it, is if things are merely pointless if they are subjective, you should consider how we know if something is actually objective. Because what is objective/subjective to you, might be the opposite to another. If I felt that there was inherent good and inherent bad and you disagreed, it might seem to me that you have the opinion that good and bad don't exist. Which would mean your side is based off subjective ideas, as such is meaningless. Even if something is based off opinion it should be considered, otherwise nothing should be. Because as humans we don't know when one ends and another starts definitively at large.

    EDOT: TL;DR, communication is key.
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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by Siegfried. on Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:54 am

    Forum Pirate wrote:
    @sig yes, but they are responsible for preserving their own enjoyment, as i stated. peoples Ideas of fun are bound to conflict. Not everyone can enjoy themselves at the same time in a competitive enviroment.

    My cop out example was that I don't enjoy losing. Now that I've said that, you beating me is intentionally ruining my fun. Are you now obligated to let me win?

    Most people dislike losing, at least on some level. And most importantly, most people dislike losing when the odds are against them, as they feel they aren't given a fair chance to fight back or apply their skills.

    Early in the thread, we got an example of someone actually quitting Dark Souls for good because of the griefing. I think that's a damned shame, because it means griefers have prevented someone from enjoying a game that is wonderfully, intelligently and carefully designed. All because of a glitch and a desire to dominate others with unfair means.

    We all accept the prospect of being invaded, and we all accept the fact that an invader might have gear we're not particularly familiar with or a combination of abilities we find difficult to counter. But we don't need to accept people using a glitch to gain powerful elemental weapons early game in order to dominate new players and new, honestly-made characters.

    Griefing glitchers (Batman!) damage not only the experiences of the people they invade, but community as a whole. It's so bad that my friend on PC immediately disconnects when he gets invaded as he's only ever fought hacked characters online.

    I certainly believe in personal freedoms, but I draw the line at the point at where those freedoms negatively influence a body of other people, and that principle holds true here.
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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by Tolvo on Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:57 am

    When freedoms are removing the rights of others, is where I draw the line as well Sieg.

    EDIT: By the way as you mentioned Forum, I wouldn't say you are wrong. I'd say you just aren't presenting your views well. Not in that your ideas are wrong or that you are stupid, but you define words a lot differently from what is standard. Similar to if two people were trying to communicate and spoke two different languages.
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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by Ghadis_God on Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:11 am

    Tolvo wrote:Actually in psychology negative traits are defined as social traits that cause others displeasure, while positive ones cause others pleasure. So by definition they do exist. People typically contain a similar amount but some contain more so one over the other causing them to be dubbed with such personalities.
    It's not exactly a great argument to counter Forum's point about "positive and negative" being subjective by bringing out the equally subjective definition of experts. Mass consensus on a subjective issue does not make it objective. Negative and positive traits are still ultimately subjective as an action or trait could cause some people grief while causing others pleasure and vice versa. For example, some people in my life get miffed that I challenge people's opinions to try and understand them while others like to interact with me for the same reason and a few have even found it attractive. So according to "experts", is my intellectual pugnitivity a positive or a negative trait? I know that griefing in a game is far more clear cut, but you can't judge a personality trait by extrapolating your experience with them to other people. Regardless of mass opinion, I personally hate the balls off of griefers, as my own subjective position. There's absolutely no need to try to objectively justify disdain for a subjective action.


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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by Tolvo on Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:13 am

    Curses Ghadis, I was hoping no one would actually know about those matters. *Shakes fist*
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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by Ghadis_God on Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:21 am

    I don't know that much about it, it just makes it easier to have a discussion when you know the basics of philosophy among a few other things.


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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by Siegfried. on Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:32 am

    Tolvo still has a point, although "pleasure" and "displeasure" are probably poor terms. While it doesn't remove all subjectivity, most actions and words are judged according to the benefit they provide to others, be that on a wide or extremely local scale. The Western literary hero figure, since the era of Christ, has always subserviated themselves to the needs of others. Via Christian cultural heritage, all people from the Western world (and probably most people elsewhere, due to Western cultural hegemony) consider sacrifice and subservience to a group of others to be heroic under the right circumstance.

    The opposite is considered villainous, or at least selfish. To take without heeding the needs of others.

    Of course, subjectivity comes into this as well -- one person's hero is another's villain. But in context of a video game, things are much more clear cut. A griefer has nothing to give to others, only detracting from their experiences in order to empower their own. There's consensus here, almost all of us agreeing that griefers have a negative impact on a community in order to empower their personal gain. That's pretty much right on the definition of a villain; the thing that prevents this from being so is that griefers are abusing a game rather than, say, the economic conditions of a town or stealing medical supplies to sell to drug addicts.
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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by Tolvo on Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:36 am

    It seems I've sort of been pushed out of the lead of this argument. Not that it's a bad thing, but you two just had to one up me. silly

    I don't really have much to add anymore, so I'll just watch. All in all it is interesting to see such ideas from each person that has posted, even if I disagree with some I still like that they are being voiced.
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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by Forum Pirate on Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:40 am

    I have no lines. One is responsible for oneself. Others arn't your concern unless you make it so. Just as I cannot fualt you for making others your concern, I cannot fualt others for not.

    Principals are also determined by the individual and vary widely.

    As I acknowledge no higher power to determine good or bad for me (a higher power can be anything,) I must conclude that good and bad are fabrications with no bearing on reality except where man makes it so.

    Similarly, as the full extent of ones actions can never be known, it would be impossible to determine wether anything was good or bad, beyond its obvious effect (which depends on who is affected), even if there were a higher power dictating good and bad to me.

    I will sacrifice most anything for personal freedom. If I can't get it or defend it (it being anything) then I don't deserve it.

    EDIT: ghadis beat me to it.


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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by Tolvo on Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:43 am

    That would technically mean you support slavery.

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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by Hellion7776 on Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:45 am

    Maybe I am just old and world weary, but IMO griefers are scum. I have no patience or respect for someone who purposefully tries to make people feel sad/bad/ashamed/low. These people do not act this way in the real world, as they know they would carry around all those A$$ beating daily. It is a new form of bullying that has come in the advent of online gaming. These people know that there is no end to viable targets for their mischievous actions and know there are no last repercussions for said actions.
    In real life, playing boardgames and the like, I CONSTANTLY allow other people to win and feel the thrill of playing and winning... Crushing them out of the gate is a sure fire way of not having more players carry on the legacy of that game.


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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by Siegfried. on Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:53 am

    It seems that Pirate is a nihilist, which makes discussion here difficult. Nothing against you, Pirate, in particular, or against nihilism. But believing in nothing but observation and subjectivity, especially in a moral sense, makes discussing things difficult because the subjectivity argument is thought-terminating and provides a simple answer to everything. Again, nothing against you, your philosophy or simplicity, but discussions like this seldom benefit from the absolute nature of a nihilistic perspective.

    It's because such an argument doesn't argue for merit but for technical fact. This is perfectly fine in a science journal, but less so when discussing how a behaviour impacts the quality of the experiences of others. There have to be lines drawn between "right" and "wrong", and to the credit of your perspective, not everyone agrees on where they are. Without at least a general idea of where those lines are, this discussion doesn't work because there's small common basis for us to discuss the impact of griefing in the wider spectrum of human behaviour.

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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by Desiani on Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:57 am

    People should know that when they aren't hollow they run the risk of being invaded by honest invaders AND 'greifers.' Regardless of what anyone else's opinion is, when you click yes to 'Reverse Hallowing' you run a knowable risk of potentially getting a greifer.

    Moral of this story is Don't Human up if you don't want to deal with a knowable risk of getting invaded by a greifer, even if you're just looking for a co-op buddy.

    My own opinions on greifing are already heavily biased as I play EVE Online where I scam and make peoples lives miserable because it's my business to do so. I view invading in the same light. I am not there to give you a good time, I am there to make sure you die and I am going to make that as entertaining as possible...

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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by Hellion7776 on Thu Sep 27, 2012 2:01 am

    Desiani wrote:People should know that when they aren't hollow they run the risk of being invaded by honest invaders AND 'greifers.' Regardless of what anyone else's opinion is, when you click yes to 'Reverse Hallowing' you run a knowable risk of potentially getting a greifer.

    Moral of this story is Don't Human up if you don't want to deal with a knowable risk of getting invaded by a greifer, even if you're just looking for a co-op buddy.

    My own opinions on greifing are already heavily biased as I play EVE Online where I scam and make peoples lives miserable because it's my business to do so. I view invading in the same light. I am not there to give you a good time, I am there to make sure you die and I am going to make that as entertaining as possible...

    I'm ok, with this mentality... invading is part of the game, hell even NPCs invade you... but doing it with the sole purpose of ruining someones play thru is ridiculous.


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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by Tolvo on Thu Sep 27, 2012 2:01 am

    But with that you understand that people aren't going to like you for it, they'll probably dislike you for it. But if you play EvE, I imagine you don't care if they like or not. Due to the nature of that game, it's just business in that game as it is how you advance and get more resources. In Dark Souls though, most people doing such things have 99 humanity, the best gear possible +5 elemental, and have already beaten the game. The people they are killing aren't presenting challenges. So I don't know if the comparison to EvE really works.
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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by Siegfried. on Thu Sep 27, 2012 2:07 am

    Desiani wrote:People should know that when they aren't hollow they run the risk of being invaded by honest invaders AND 'greifers.' Regardless of what anyone else's opinion is, when you click yes to 'Reverse Hallowing' you run a knowable risk of potentially getting a greifer.

    Moral of this story is Don't Human up if you don't want to deal with a knowable risk of getting invaded by a greifer, even if you're just looking for a co-op buddy.

    My own opinions on greifing are already heavily biased as I play EVE Online where I scam and make peoples lives miserable because it's my business to do so. I view invading in the same light. I am not there to give you a good time, I am there to make sure you die and I am going to make that as entertaining as possible...

    My issue with this perspective is that it puts responsibility on the victim rather than the perpetrator. And besides, you need to be in human form to kindle bonfires, and kindling is a pretty big deal -- particularly to new players, who are the most at risk when it comes to griefers.

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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by Desiani on Thu Sep 27, 2012 2:08 am

    I was using EVE to give you a small piece of background info on myself.

    @Hellion My actions in Darksouls reflect what covenant I am currently in. Seeing as the dark wraith and the dark moons both have their own agenda's. Neither of them being making sure your target has a fair fight, Dark Moons wants your sinning *** punished and the Dark Wraiths want your humanity.

    Seeing as the -is- a Role playing game I think greifing is an acceptable way to play both of them.


    Edit: While I know this topic is a sore spot for both sides of the fence... does any one here play Tokyo Jungle or Monster Hunters Freedom Unite? O.o


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