trolololololo

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    Why do you think people grief in Dark souls pvp?

    [ 6 ]
    8% [8%] 
    [ 26 ]
    37% [37%] 
    [ 9 ]
    13% [13%] 
    [ 9 ]
    13% [13%] 
    [ 21 ]
    29% [29%] 

    Total Votes: 71

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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by IV_Mark_VI on Fri Sep 28, 2012 7:44 pm

    You could argue that he is having fun at someone's expense, and that the person he's making fun of can play offline the forum. He makes a choice to come here, and a choice to post, and he shouldn't be responsible if his method of posting doesn't align with someone else's ideas of right or wrong.

    Right?


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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by Knight Alundil on Fri Sep 28, 2012 7:45 pm

    No not right. On this forum there are rules and regulations. They specifically state no flaming other forum members.

    At what point in dark souls does it tell you a rule is not to grief?


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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by IV_Mark_VI on Fri Sep 28, 2012 7:47 pm

    That's true. But who makes those rules? The community?

    If it's the community, then couldn't the community make the dark souls rules? Or do you think that's not the same?


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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by Knight Alundil on Fri Sep 28, 2012 7:53 pm

    This forum is community run, Dark souls is owned by From Software so they make the rules, not us.

    When you're fighting in arranged duels arranged through the community you can do whatever you like but when someone is playing a game alone they can do whatever the game lets them.

    Edit: Not including glitches of course.


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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by IV_Mark_VI on Fri Sep 28, 2012 7:56 pm

    The principle is the same, regardless of written rule. If you are causing someone harm in your fun, its not cool.


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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by Knight Alundil on Fri Sep 28, 2012 7:57 pm

    Who's causing anyone harm? A little frustration maybe and that frustration was guaranteed when they picked up a box marked "Dark Souls".

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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by Knight Alundil on Fri Sep 28, 2012 7:57 pm

    Also, I cant believe you talked about causing someone "harm" in a video game. This is really getting silly now.


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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by IV_Mark_VI on Fri Sep 28, 2012 8:20 pm

    Isn't that what the term Griefer means?

    That's the whole point. No one can cause me frustration in this game anymore; not gankers, not griefers... they're temporary inconveniences. But for new players that almost throw their controllers? (There's a thread on that) yeah, they're getting upset and this adds to it.

    If you invade the burg/parish and kill someone unprepared, but they take no harm, by definition, you are not griefing.

    Griefing is when you cause someone grief. Which is "keen mental suffering or distress". If you're not doing that, you're not griefing.


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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by Knight Alundil on Fri Sep 28, 2012 8:35 pm

    Well if that's the case then you could argue that it's down to the person on the receiving end whether they're going to let it bother them or not. If someone gets that much anguish from a video game, like the people you describe who throw controllers, then they are, in my opinion, not mature enough to handle a video game. The box says 16 and I would imagine anyone over 16 would be able to play a game without throwing something across a room.

    If they get "Keen mental suffering or distress" from playing Dark Souls then I would recommend they stop playing it and many other video games.


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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by IV_Mark_VI on Fri Sep 28, 2012 8:41 pm

    Agreed. Same with people that get mad on a forum, but there's lots of them that seem to get upset around here, wouldn't you agree?

    I don't think Muslims should get all up in arms over a cartoon about Mohammed, but they do. Just because I don't agree, doesn't mean I'm going ot do that. I don't understand it, but I respect it. It doesn't line up with my beliefs, but I'm not going to do something to upset someone on purpose, because that's a horrible thing to do.

    It's trivial to get upset in a game. It's more trivial to get upset talking about that game. But people do.


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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by FexDS on Fri Sep 28, 2012 8:53 pm

    The game was not designed to allow low level griefing. People doing the BB glitch to create overpowered low level characters are breaking the rules of the game as set by the creators, and thus breaking the online balance of the game.

    New characters are constantly invaded by people wielding gear and spells that aren't meant to be accessed at that point, and thus forced to play offline to get through the new areas or summon glitched helpers who will one shot every enemy and two shot the bosses, ruining the fun of the game. Playing offline because other people's fun involves cheating is not something this wiki or forums will be seemed to tolerate.

    If you are a low level glitcher griefer, you deserve every bit of resentment you get from those who love this game and have created this community, and you are likely held in contempt by the content creators as well.

    To summarize in one really good quote

    "The right to swing my fist ends where the other man's nose begins."
    Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr.


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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by Knight Alundil on Fri Sep 28, 2012 9:24 pm

    I totally agree Fex, but could you address the point i've been trying to make?

    Someone plays through the game legit with a low level (1-10) character all the way to the kiln, for example, amassing all the items throughout the game that they can use and leveling them up accordingly to become extremely powerful at a low level. They then return to areas like the burg and parish to invade and kill the low level players to get easy wins and this is the way, in their mind, that they've always meant to play the game. They've felt it's totally cool and yes, while being extremely unfair, completely fits with the survival of the fittest, prepare to die motif of Dark Souls.

    You say the game was not designed to allow low level griefing but if someone puts in the time and effort to complete a low level run they have access to what you are calling low level griefing without glitching or cheating in any way.


    Last edited by Knight Alundil on Fri Sep 28, 2012 9:25 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Grammar :/)


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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by IV_Mark_VI on Fri Sep 28, 2012 9:25 pm

    Very well put. Bravo. He did address that point Knight; he doesn't agree with it.

    That it is possible to do it doesn't mean it's in the game design or intent.


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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by FexDS on Fri Sep 28, 2012 9:46 pm

    That would be something but the reality is that no, people don't do that. People use a glitch to get gear and abuse their overly powerful toons breaking the balance of the game. And we all know it. And it's sad.


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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by Knight Alundil on Fri Sep 28, 2012 9:47 pm

    I know people who have done that. So what about them?

    Edit: Actually forget it:

    This thread was about griefing. The OP posted a question about griefing and the thread has devolved into a conversation about whether glitching is good or bad. Obviously glitching is bad and I have religiously not used the BB glitch which is something not alot of you can say.

    I have made every post about someone who plays legit, and goes back to the beginning of the game with high end gear. Every time someone makes a point against me all they can say is glitching is bad. No one has made any point against me apart from "It's a harsh thing to do".

    If you honestly feel that it's not in the game design I have two things to tell you. It says "Prepare to die" on the box and Miyazaki is a natural born troll. I'm out of this conversation.

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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by Rynn on Fri Sep 28, 2012 9:59 pm

    FexDS wrote:That would be something but the reality is that no, people don't do that. People use a glitch to get gear and abuse their overly powerful toons breaking the balance of the game. And we all know it. And it's sad.
    I made 7 griefing toons where i played the entire game at level 20 or below, and tried desperately to beat the four kings solo with my horribly low damage... i feel my griefing toons actually meant something to me due to the affinity this gave me towards them... and i felt griefers were ok at that point, because... not knowing of the BB Glitch, i presumed ALL griefers had to kill the four kings like this, and as such prove they were allmighty at PvE, and deserving of their unfair honor.

    This game felt more innocent before i learned of the bugs :c
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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by FexDS on Sat Sep 29, 2012 1:06 am

    Guys, if you honestly believe that the hundreds and likely thousands of players low level griefing the burg are legit then I take my hat off to your innocence. Do you really think that many people would have the skill and patience to invest in this for the sole purpose of giving grief to some new players? How does this correlate to the sudden spike on this once the glitch was discovered and further afterwards when it was made even more convenient? We all know the reality, and a few exceptions aren't gonna disprove it.

    On the "Prepare to die" tag, I guess some aren't aware that is Namco's creation, the Japanese tagline is about humanity, and Miyazaki is not a fan of it by any means: The game is supposed to be about learning from, your mistakes and success through perseverance.

    On a related note, in the specific case of people who do go through the trouble of beating the game at low levels to grief others. To me you are the equivalent of someone going through the trouble of repeating a grade so you are the biggest kid in class and can beat others up. Just because there is no law against farting in someones face it does not mean society should simply accept your actions and not tell you to your face that you are disgusting.

    So: you disgust me


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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by sonofartorias on Sat Sep 29, 2012 1:21 am

    I know its great.Besides i was just joking two years ago i came here said almost the same things and was called a troll by almost everyone i was just messing with him the same way i was nothing more than a joke


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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by ViralEnsign_ on Sat Sep 29, 2012 1:23 am

    FexDS wrote:Guys, if you honestly believe that the hundreds and likely thousands of players low level griefing the burg are legit then I take my hat off to your innocence. Do you really think that many people would have the skill and patience to invest in this for the sole purpose of giving grief to some new players? How does this correlate to the sudden spike on this once the glitch was discovered and further afterwards when it was made even more convenient? We all know the reality, and a few exceptions aren't gonna disprove it.

    On the "Prepare to die" tag, I guess some aren't aware that is Namco's creation, the Japanese tagline is about humanity, and Miyazaki is not a fan of it by any means: The game is supposed to be about learning from, your mistakes and success through perseverance.

    On a related note, in the specific case of people who do go through the trouble of beating the game at low levels to grief others. To me you are the equivalent of someone going through the trouble of repeating a grade so you are the biggest kid in class and can beat others up. Just because there is no law against farting in someones face it does not mean society should simply accept your actions and not tell you to your face that you are disgusting.

    So: you disgust me

    Its not that we think they are legit.... its that we as people dont have the right nor the wisdom to judge them as individuals as this thread suggests.

    Sure I hate gankers, and griefers....but Im not equipped to comment on why they do it, and for what reasons....and then even if I could do that I cannot generalise them and suggest they do it for one of the reasons in the poll.

    Every action is an extention of the human condition and I have not the right to comment on it.


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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by SunlightCrusader on Sat Sep 29, 2012 4:01 am

    Wow this got heated at some points. I only read maybe the first 7 pages and the last one and I must say my take. Now this may have been said in one form or another (if so I apologize) but I want to say it nonetheless.

    As a society develops it creates laws based on necessity, social taboos, and hopefully right and wrong. This holds true in almost every country in our world, though some are also based on the wills of their leader which is irrelevant here. Now I think it is fair to say that Dark Souls is a culture and society of its own. As such we have made general rules governing what is accepted and what is not. These actions are frowned upon in varying degrees just as real life crimes have varying degrees of punishment. Griefing is one of the worst of these "crimes" as defined by our community. As such we condemn it beyond most other actions. This is simply how a society, a community works. No matter how they go about it it is still wrong. Is a man any less guilty because he went out to buy the gun he used to kill somebody than if he already had it? No. If anything he is more so as he enacted a long, thought out plan to commit his crime. We have defined the crime and they commit it. Their reasons may help us understand them but they do not excuse the crime. The community acts as judge and jury. The individual player a executioner.

    What I am trying to say with this disorganized rambling is that we have simply followed a natural path of development for a community. We have created "laws" and by choosing to break them, whatever the reason, griefers have opened themselves to hatred and punishment by the community just as the murderer does in the real world's more formal court systems. Except this is a game that people buy to have fun. In real life a crime can be mitigated by the circumstances but this is a game. There are no excuses for their actions.

    Okay my wall of text rant speech thing is done. Like I said I didn't read everything so I apologize for repeats or irrelevance. I also apologize if I sound like an idiot as I am no expert on any of this and can only speak based on my knowledge and experiences.


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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by getsin on Sat Sep 29, 2012 5:56 am




    - because game developers/designers of dark souls like it when people grief !
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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by ViralEnsign_ on Sat Sep 29, 2012 6:08 am

    Sun I understand what you are saying but thats not the point. This thread has asked us why people do what they do and then to generalise them under one of the polls categories.

    No one on this forum is qualified to comment on who a person is, and why they do what they do unless they have experienced the life style of the opposite half.

    Sure every community develops laws and customs to exercise social control, to establish boundaries, and to relieve anxiety but that doesnt mean those laws are inherently right.


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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by Knight Alundil on Sat Sep 29, 2012 6:17 am

    sonofartorias wrote:I know its great.Besides i was just joking two years ago i came here said almost the same things and was called a troll by almost everyone i was just messing with him the same way i was nothing more than a joke

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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by roanispe on Sat Sep 29, 2012 6:33 am

    It'll never end, will it?:



    This thread took a nasty turn downhill, and I don't see it stopping anywhere nice. Maybe, it'd be best if we just let this one go; I am sure it will come up again, and can be discussed much more agreeably.


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    Re: trolololololo

    Post by reim0027 on Sat Sep 29, 2012 9:22 am

    Just a friendly reminder. This is a very heated topic. Clearly there are strong feelings here. Let's keep this on topic and leave the personal attacks out of it. But, I'm guessing this thread has almost run its course.


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