Crestfallen Warrior

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    JohnnyHarpoon
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    Crestfallen Warrior

    Post by JohnnyHarpoon on Sat Aug 11, 2012 2:49 am

    Just sorta actually paid attention to him for the first time in a while, and when you think about it, finding him Hollow in New Londo leads me to believe that he was attempting to become a Darkwraith.

    I never really thought about it before, but what else could he mean by "Maybe it's time I do something about it!"? He's mad cause Frampt is there...and what makes Frampt go away? Siding with Kaathe.

    I suppose he could just have left Firelink and clearly just not made it very far...but it's the intent within his line of dialogue that really convinces me he has at least some sort of plan/some kind of idea, and he has motivation against Frampt, and he was Hollowed doing something in New Londo...

    Kind of meaningless in the grand scheme of things, but I just found it interesting that he seems to know something.


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    Re: Crestfallen Warrior

    Post by Rudmed on Sat Aug 11, 2012 4:45 am

    For some odd reason I thought he was refering to player. The stench of the player's success pissed him off so maybe he tried to become a dark wraith to end the player's glory?

    However, I can see it easily refering to Frampt since he told us his dislike of Frampt.


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    Re: Crestfallen Warrior

    Post by Spurgun on Sat Aug 11, 2012 4:46 am

    I always thought that he tried to kill Frampt. And when he couldn´t do it he fled, in the opposite direction. Later he hollowed down there.
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    Re: Crestfallen Warrior

    Post by Tolvo on Sat Aug 11, 2012 4:56 am

    If you notice there are many hollows down there, it is a safe haven which he might have gone to due to his cowardice. Growing hateful of himself and guilty for his failure eventually going hollow. That's how I always viewed it. Now, I'm not saying your idea is impossible. I'm just saying I think there needs to be some more ground for it.
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    Re: Crestfallen Warrior

    Post by JohnnyHarpoon on Sat Aug 11, 2012 5:16 am

    I mean, again he does kind of just suck...but he made it all the way to the lower platform, and seems to be on his way back from New Londo. Even if he were to have gone Hollow and decided to go to that area with all the random Hollows, I think his placement implies he'd hollowed once-and-for-all in Londo, and actually was making/made his way back.

    Also, I just think that interpretation makes that line of dialogue the most interesting. Listen to him say it and imagine DW as his intentions...it's a little intense.

    Considering his dialogue and his positioning in New Londo, I actually find more evidence of my theory than others...but I mean, in the end, it's left intentionally ambiguous so our brains could do something instead of just passively be told.

    SO we all win?


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    Re: Crestfallen Warrior

    Post by Eolan on Sat Aug 11, 2012 8:30 am

    I dunno that would be really easy to get across by giving him a dark hand when he attacks you or something but they didn't so really its supported by nowt but placement (Think about anor londo firekeeper attacks you with DMB etc etc). All in all the other hollows there aren't seeking the DW's are they? so i'm skeptical.
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    Re: Crestfallen Warrior

    Post by skarekrow13 on Sat Aug 11, 2012 10:59 am

    I always interpreted his lines as intending harm to Frampt. He does seem to know a lot so it could be he sought Kaathe. I just assumed he found out he couldn't hurt the ghosts and went hollow in frustration
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    Re: Crestfallen Warrior

    Post by Rudmed on Sat Aug 11, 2012 3:29 pm

    Eolan wrote:I dunno that would be really easy to get across by giving him a dark hand when he attacks you or something but they didn't so really its supported by nowt but placement (Think about anor londo firekeeper attacks you with DMB etc etc). All in all the other hollows there aren't seeking the DW's are they? so i'm skeptical.

    Yes, but we know she was part of the Darkmoons, but the Crestfallen warrior didn't make it to Kaathe. Instead became more depressed/frustrated and hollowed.


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    Re: Crestfallen Warrior

    Post by JohnnyHarpoon on Sat Aug 11, 2012 4:58 pm

    Yeah, he never made it to Kaathe, which explains the lack of Dark Hand - he'd have to kill Sif to even have a chance at it, which obviously doesn't happen (though, considering Oscar is 'in our world' as much as this guy, and Oscar seems to have killed mad bosses, maybe he could have...still, skill-wise I'd say no).

    Also, I really like the idea that it's not being able to damage the ghosts that turns him Hollow. Really makes sense, given Frampt seems to be the 'last straw', and then he goes on to face seemingly invulnerable enemies.


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    Re: Crestfallen Warrior

    Post by skarekrow13 on Sat Aug 11, 2012 6:22 pm

    They almost made me hollow until I figured it out. I tried New Londo veeeeeery early. I quickly sought easier fare

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    Re: Crestfallen Warrior

    Post by Anchises on Sun Aug 12, 2012 12:59 am

    I kinda agree with Tolvo as far as CW being drawn to New Londo as a sort of safe haven. He is a really poor candidate for a darkwraith and I can't imagine him getting past 4kings. It always seemed that he was gonna try to do something about turning hollow, which could be 1) ridding the world of the darksign, the supposed agenda of the DWs or 2) acquiring more humanity, also a DW prerogative. So maybe there's something to this.


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    Re: Crestfallen Warrior

    Post by skarekrow13 on Sun Aug 12, 2012 1:21 am

    The only flaw with a safe haven theory is that people seem to go hollow when they lose sight of a goal or lose their purpose. In his case his goal is a safe haven which is compromised by Peter Frampton. If he found another safe haven he should remain human. Unless of course his goal changed which is what we're discussing.

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    Re: Crestfallen Warrior

    Post by Leeroy_Jenkins on Mon Aug 13, 2012 3:47 am

    I don't think he would want to be a dark wraith because he tells you early on that he wouldn't steal someone elses humanity and that is kinda what darkwraiths are about.


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    Re: Crestfallen Warrior

    Post by Shkar on Mon Aug 13, 2012 4:09 am

    Isn't there also text dump text that shows the Crestfallen Merchant trying to avoid hollowing, showing that the whole "giving up = hollowing" theory isn't absolute?


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    Re: Crestfallen Warrior

    Post by DoughGuy on Mon Aug 13, 2012 4:13 am

    How isnt it? You dont have to be actively doing something to give up. His depression could just be catching up to him. Not to mention he'd be watching you go around succeeding where he failed.


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    Re: Crestfallen Warrior

    Post by Shkar on Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:05 am

    DoughGuy wrote:How isnt it? You dont have to be actively doing something to give up. His depression could just be catching up to him. Not to mention he'd be watching you go around succeeding where he failed.

    I was going to say that his goal simply seems to be to sell items to people for souls and then take them back when the golem flattens them, but then I remembered that you destroy the golem.

    However, this raises a few questions, if we think about it:

    1. Are hollowing of the mind and hollowing of the body two separate, though related, processes?

    2. If the above is true, is giving up the only source for hollowing of the mind, or can sheer time cause it as well?

    3. What the hell do merchants use souls for!? Do they level up the same as we do?


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    Re: Crestfallen Warrior

    Post by DoughGuy on Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:11 am

    I thought you were still talking about the warrior lol, glad my srgument stil applies.
    1. The fact Logan and Solaire go insane without hollowing, yet the director says that Logan is insane not hollow, proves that hollowing of the mind and body and the same. (Undead merchants shut up)
    2. As far as we know only cynicalism does it. We dont know how old the NPCs or you are. You could be millenium old as could they.
    3. SOULS!


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    Re: Crestfallen Warrior

    Post by Shkar on Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:17 am

    DoughGuy wrote:I thought you were still talking about the warrior lol, glad my srgument stil applies.
    1. The fact Logan and Solaire go insane without hollowing, yet the director says that Logan is insane not hollow, proves that hollowing of the mind and body and the same. (Undead merchants shut up)
    2. As far as we know only cynicalism does it. We dont know how old the NPCs or you are. You could be millenium old as could they.
    3. SOULS!

    1. CW, Reah's Knights, Laurentius, and Griggs all go hollow yet if I remember correctly they all continue to remain looking like normal humans, not hollows. However, the undead merchants and the character can appear as hollows yet not think like them.

    2. If cynicism was the only cause, I would think that would make hollowfication a very quick, near instantaneous process. The text shows the Crestfallen Merchant literally struggling to retain his mind to the point of being able to think enough to count.

    3. But WHY?!? The only use for souls in the game is as a currency and to level up. If merchants can't level up, why the hell do they value sous enough to use them as currency?


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    Re: Crestfallen Warrior

    Post by DoughGuy on Mon Aug 13, 2012 6:42 am

    1. Nope they are hollow. Tolvo has checked for me before.
    2. Think of the depths you would need to go to. I think it would be something you could feel coming, something you would fight, and maybe find hope again for a little while.
    3. Sanity? Maybe its what holds off hollowing?


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    Re: Crestfallen Warrior

    Post by ublug on Mon Aug 13, 2012 6:50 am

    Judging from the game mechanics, a hollow body is from lack/loss of humanity.
    A hollow mind should be from lack of souls. This is better presented in demons souls, where enemies are referred to as 'soul starved'. The merchants keeps their mind going by trading for souls, but I guess the crestfallen merchant's business isn't exactly booming.

    Regarding the npcs who goes hollow. We don't know how long for example laurentius have been running around the swamp, because of the distorted time aspect, he could have been searching for years before finally caving in.
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    Re: Crestfallen Warrior

    Post by Eolan on Mon Aug 13, 2012 12:17 pm

    Also a hollowing might just be a long process. When reah hollows her eyes go weird right? I would say going hollow just leads to you not maintaining yourself (through humanity probably) and wasting away.
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    Re: Crestfallen Warrior

    Post by JohnnyHarpoon on Tue Aug 14, 2012 9:48 pm

    I wrote this about Hollowing on a thread of mine about Humanity and Death (http://soulswiki.forumsrpg.com/t5085-humanity-and-death#90114 if anybody cares), but essentially the idea behind it is that Humanity and Death are the same thing. I related it to in the Iliad, when Apollo admits that Humans posses something the Gods do not - an enduring heart - for the Gods are immortal and can never die, and Humans must cope with such tragedy (which is why their soul is 'dark').

    "It's true, turning Undead and turning Hollow are different, and I still don't know exactly how Humans
    and Humanity become divided...but even think about it purely as a
    player - if you are invaded (and not intentionally trying to PvP), how
    much harder would you fight if you had 40 Humanity than if you had, say
    4? Obviously you'd probably try either way, cause the game/fighting
    people is fun...but doesn't losing 40 Humanity just seem so much more
    heartbreaking?

    And that's it, right there. Your humanity
    motivates you, you become disappointed if you lose it, it's more a
    commodity than Souls, even. When you die, you come back, but sans your
    humanity...so while you are immortal, the concept of some kind of loss
    is still afoot, and thus the enduring heart of man can mourn the loss of
    their own humanity, if nothing else.

    So, honestly, I'd say going
    hollow is quite the opposite of some kind of grief - it is grief, and
    loss, and especially death that make us Human. Take that away from us,
    and we lose our enduring hearts - we lose the one, special thing that
    even the Gods do not possess. The preciousness of life itself
    dwindles...and then, so does the mind."


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    Re: Crestfallen Warrior

    Post by exod FEAR on Tue Aug 14, 2012 10:31 pm

    JohnnyHarpoon wrote:....The preciousness of life itself
    dwindles...and then, so does the mind."

    wow, I read on here quite a bit. Rarely comment but that ^^^... really moved me. seriously, that was really good. Prostration
    +1


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