Linking Internal and External Lore: Norse, Arthurian, and Etymology in Dark Souls

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    Re: Linking Internal and External Lore: Norse, Arthurian, and Etymology in Dark Souls

    Post by skarekrow13 on Tue Mar 20, 2012 5:49 pm

    Might be partly my fault for working on some in game lore here too. Trying to positively identify relations and plot points to compare to outside lore

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    Re: Linking Internal and External Lore: Norse, Arthurian, and Etymology in Dark Souls

    Post by DoughGuy on Wed Mar 21, 2012 4:55 am

    Its an odd connection but what about Alvina and the checshire cat from Alice in wonderland? They both live in forests, hidden from the world and talk cryptically. Alvina also seems to have a lot of power if she's holding together a group of bandits and I always assumed the cheshire cat was more poewrful than it seemed.


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    Re: Linking Internal and External Lore: Norse, Arthurian, and Etymology in Dark Souls

    Post by skarekrow13 on Wed Mar 21, 2012 10:25 am

    You beat me to it DoughGuy. I was thinking that was the Alvina inspiration too. The giant grin helps too. Plus, as a current forest hunter I shouldn't say this, I tried to kill Alvina in NG+ and despite taking her entire life bar away she still hissed and disappeared, like you'd expect the Cheshire Cat to do as well. Additionally, Alvina's perch means that you can only see particular portions of her at a given time and not the whole cat like the Cheshire Cat. This is particularly true from the front view. Of particular note in thie link is the original drawing from John Tenniel.
    Cheshire Cat

    I toured Anor Londo last night expressly to view the various paintings in the bedrooms and see if anything jumped out, or if there were any possible connections to some of our other ideas. A few things popped out.

    Most of the paintings are landscapes and show Anor Londo in various states. Notably, there is at least one painting that seems to depict Anor Londo as a city on a hill or atop a mountain. Based on relative heights, Undead Burg would also be part of the ascent to the city. This immediately drew correlations in my mind to Olympus or Valhalla. The sun and lightning connections throughout the game certainly don't dispel this idea.

    For city history I noticed that there is a painting of a Giant complete with Halberd and Shield. He dominates the picture spatially but more notable is a small person, painted only in shadow who looks ready to confront the Giant. Even MORE interesting is the use of red and black in the painting which to me looked like the city was burning. My impression of this painting is that it either shows a prophecy of a small person (us) sacking the city or is connected to the darkening of Londo. It could reference that a war caused the gods to flee or erupted after the gods fled and created a vacuum of power in the city (going along with my O&S rise to power perhaps, especially as they are the only knight like figures depicted in statue).

    There is a picture of Sen's fortress which is unremarkable (though a nice painting) with the exception that this too might have the small shadowy figure in the bottom right corner of the painting.

    There was one painting of a location I did not recognize in game but strongly resembled Stone Henge, although the pillars are fairly regularly spaced so this would be Stone Henge pre-decay or more romanesque actual pillars.

    I found a few interesting connections in a room primarily filled with portraits. Firstly, all but one painting looks to have been done by the same artist. A big shout out to WyrmHero who saved me some research and gave a link showing what's pretty much an original of one of the portraits. It appears someone at From is a Rembrandt fan as most of the paintings in this room look like his work. I will be looking for info on Ariamis as I think Ariamis might be Rembrandt. Two of the paintings look like a young girl in red and a young woman (same person I believe) carrying either a brush or wand. WyrmHero again pointed out that Gwyndolin was raised as a girl so a wand would likely be him and not a young lady. The lady in black also has an item in her left hand which might be the Darkmoon catalyst. I at first thought the lady was Ariamis but WyrmHero convinced me otherwise with the Rembrandt link. More evidence that the young lad(y) is probably Gywndolin is the painting in the room that is NOT done by Rembrandt. This painting shows Gwynevere precisely as she appears as her illusion form, and not as she appears in statue form in Anor Londo (I think she is one or both of the lady statues in the City which I can post at a later date). I believe that Gwyndolin might have slept in this room prior to haunting the tomb and more importantly for this thread, was a painter. I surmise that he created the painting as an idealized form of his sister and carried this depiction over to the illusion after she left the city. It would make sense that Gwyndolin, raised as a female, revered his sister who had always been what he never truly could be. Also, the young girl/boy in red seems to have a pendant. I posted this finding in the pendant theories thread for those interested.

    The City of Anor Londo's engravings were interesting too. All along the walls of the city there is scroll work that looks akin to stylized wheat. There are carvings that show a basket. At first I believed that the basket held a baby, as this image is all over the place via statues. However, upon closer look and comparing several of the same carving all over, I believe the basket carries bread. There also appears to be a young person at an altar/desk. This one was tough to determine so feel free to help. The last carving I noticed all over at first reminded me of the Ark of the Covenant as it at first glance looked like a box with a sun inside it. After closer inspection the carving seems to be a box with a sun but with pillars or a city atop it. So, Anor Londo could be the city above the sun or further linked to the sun.

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    Re: Linking Internal and External Lore: Norse, Arthurian, and Etymology in Dark Souls

    Post by Emergence on Wed Mar 21, 2012 11:08 am

    Wow Skarekrow, you have been to the Louvre and back! I didn't realize the sheer wealth of Art in Anor Londo.

    I will look into real life architecture for some examples of that scrollwork (although I am stepping out of my area of knowledge lol). The city on the sun, symbolically seems to say the city has the sun as it's foundation.


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    Re: Linking Internal and External Lore: Norse, Arthurian, and Etymology in Dark Souls

    Post by skarekrow13 on Wed Mar 21, 2012 11:44 am

    I really owe a good deal to WyrmHero who, thanks to my pendant post, jumped right into the paintings too and seemingly instantly made an artist connection as this is also not my area of expertise. Which reminds me.....I think I forgot a +1 over there. I have some more Artorias observations that follow a similar vein but not as good as the Anor Londo ones. I will post later as I should really accomplish something at work today. Plus the Gwynevere statue(s) a little deeper.

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    Re: Linking Internal and External Lore: Norse, Arthurian, and Etymology in Dark Souls

    Post by Emergence on Wed Mar 21, 2012 12:20 pm

    I'm going to go back into the Arthurian lore some as well, we started making some neat links there. Not quite sure where to start looking for the scrollwork, would help to have an architect on board.


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    Re: Linking Internal and External Lore: Norse, Arthurian, and Etymology in Dark Souls

    Post by WyrmHero on Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:25 pm

    I'm glad I could help, skarekrow. I think Ariamis was the great painter of the Age of Fire. The Gods, specially Gywn, could have granted him residence in Anor Londo due to his great works. He was so obsessed that he even painted the portal to the Painted World. I don't think he created the Painted World, I think that was work of Velka or Gwyn as some kind of prison. Also there's a painting next to the Giant's painting that somewhat resembles the bridges of the Kiln of the First Flame, or the Painted World bridge.


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    Re: Linking Internal and External Lore: Norse, Arthurian, and Etymology in Dark Souls

    Post by skarekrow13 on Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:43 pm

    Looking at Rembrandt's life now and have come across some interesting finds.
    Take a looksie at Wikipedia with me:
    Rembrandt
    Firstly, some self portraits of Rembrandt do show a mustache similar to that of the gentleman pictured in Anor Londo. Also of note, the pictures of Rembrandt with this facial hair most predominant seem similar in age to the Anor Londo male. Self portraits often have him in varying clothing from different periods and regions.
    Self portrait
    Rembrandt started off as a historical painter (battle scene in Anor Londo) and did work on many landscapes (a lot of the paintings). Rembrandt's later works were characterized by using the paint to create different textures to enhance the illusion of the painting. This is similar to all of the paintings in the Anor Londo bedrooms (and the painted world painting) with the exception of the Gwynevere portrait. Further evidence (assuming a Rembrandt link) that the Gwynevere portrait is not from the same artist is that Rembrandt was notorious for detailed work and facial expressions/emotion. The Gwynevere portrait, while detailed, has a fairly bland facial expression compared to the other portraits. Perhaps a bigger clue.....the chest seems to be exaggerated greatly (surprise) as I am fairly certain the statues in Anor Londo are Gwynevere. Statues of all other parties in the city are not only proportionate to the subject but somewhere around a 1:1 scale. The statues of Ornstein and Smough are pretty much life sized for instance (Gwyn seems a little bigger in statue form but hard to tell). Rembrandt's works don't seem prone to this kind of exaggerated feature. Going back again to illusion Gwynevere, she is greatly exaggerated in much the same way and, compared to other NPCs in the game seems less "real" looking to me, suggesting again that the painting and the illusion were both made by Gwyndolin.

    Take a gander at this painting of one of Rembrandt's lovers. This was done by Rembrandt and not a pupil but the bedding and pose certainly seem familiar.....
    Gwyenvere inspiration?
    The seraph above is interesting as is the man lurking behind the bed (kind of like Gwyndolin). I'm not sure if this is all intentional but man......this is pretty interesting.

    Regarding the portraits of the young lad or lady.....typical Dutch hairstyles for boys and men of the age were curly shoulder length hair, blond is not uncommon winking . Women's hair seems to vary.

    I read up on some of his pupils and no one seems to be a parallel to Gwyndolin but really wasn't expecting much there.



    Briefly going back to the statues in Anor Londo, the statue set at the end of the O&S room and the one in the painted world room both appear to by Gwynevere. It's been surmised before that Gwynevere's statue overlooks the painted world as she is Priscilla's mother. I can't think of anything to refute this and to be honest. That makes sense. We know she's half dragon half female, is similarly sized to other deities (with the exception of Gwyndolin). The thread I caught this on also suggested Seath was her daddy. This also makes sense due to coloration for Priscilla (also on the thread) and the fact that there's nothing I've seen to suggest Gwynevere went around looking for dragons. Seath on the other hand was a stone's throw away and somewhat accepted in Anor Londo. I think this fits in with the Arthurian mythos as well as Norse. Priscilla's fate indicates that nobody wanted evidence of her around, meaning the union of her parents was frowned upon. This could mean infidelity to another or just the plain old disgust of interspecies erotica. Emergence.....correct me if I'm wrong but the results of Guinevere's union outside of her marriage (Mordred) was also cast out in some versions of the legends. Going with Norse and actually Roman mythologies as well, there are lots of tales of gods sleeping with other species creating either new ones or demigods.

    Final concept for now.....just like in Anor Londo, I spent last night with my binoculars out in the forest and Artorias' grave. Starting from where I started I noted that Andre is scarred beyond belief on most of his skin. The texture resembles that of the Artorias door and the Greatshield of Artorias. You'd be proud Emergence, in an Andre thread yesterday I pointed out that his name means "strong" or "manly." Going back to the door, the crest appears to have to be set in the middle of a sun. The crest has similar texture to the door but appears to be an actual pattern and not just texture. I said "hello" to Alvina on my way to the grave, noting that aside from the glowing flowers, there is little vegetation on the forest floor. The gate directly in front of the grave is not of the texture but rather smooth with a border. I believe the grave door and the Artorias door were made by different craftsman and likely at different times. I believe this because, for some reason, I never noticed that amidst all the swords and flowers there are about two dozen little graves in the mix. I get the impression that this is a secret graveyard that Artorias was brought to and not where he necessarily was killed. The Artorias door suggests that the area was sealed after Artorias was buried. I took a closer look at the flowers and noticed they are roughly the same shape as the graves in that they cover approximately the same location and neither graves nor flowers have any real presence behind Artorias' grave. His grave has an inscription which is of course not in any language I recognize. Maybe Tolkien would know (and I am saying that half serious). Also of note is the detail that went into this area. There is a grave near Artorias' in which a sword has been thrust into it. Swords come in most shapes for human size participants and at many angles to the ground. I studied the two giant greatswords on either side of Artorias' grave. I went back to my bottomless box to compare them to other swords in the game and found no match. Additionally, both swords are not the same either. As far as I can tell that means there are two unique greatswords by his grave, both of which are about twice your height.

    Easter Egg for Emergence and his Artorias is left handed theory. You're almost certainly right. I noted that the Stone Golems, knight protectors of the forest are also left handed. The box art picture.....I was never able to tell if the guy was coming or going but the facebook pic for Dark Souls clearly shows the person has their back to us. Their armor seems unique, the sword from this pic looks like the cursed sword and the shield looks right too. I think I might have heard someone say the scale of the weapons is off (too small to be greatshield etc.) but we have to remember he is likely MUCH bigger than us.

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    Re: Linking Internal and External Lore: Norse, Arthurian, and Etymology in Dark Souls

    Post by ublug on Wed Mar 21, 2012 4:04 pm

    The sword in that image looks edited (they noticed and fixed it), he was origanally wielding the black knight greatsword http://ps3media.ign.com/ps3/image/article/117/1176946/dark-souls-20110616114637948.jpg

    Good job on the Rembrandt part. I guess these are Gwyndolin and the God of War's bedrooms?

    Another observation from the darkroot garden. This needs a second opinion, because I can't make up my mind about it:
    Down where you enter the tunnel/stairs that leads to the wolf ring. If you stand at the location the stone knight was sleeping (by the edge where the frogs appear) and look up above the tunnel entrance, there are some stones that looks like a dead person, half buried in the stone wall. But if you look at the same stones from another direction it looks just like any other piece of rock. :suspect:
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    Re: Linking Internal and External Lore: Norse, Arthurian, and Etymology in Dark Souls

    Post by WyrmHero on Wed Mar 21, 2012 4:29 pm

    Yeah that's a Black Knight Greatsword. Thank you for the pic ublug. The shield is the Crest Shield. Look at the stems with leaves on the top.
    http://i.imgur.com/9Cr1m.jpg



    Edit: Also the back of the Collector's Edition has the Elite Knight with the Crest Shield and the Black Knight Sword.



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    Last edited by WyrmHero on Wed Mar 21, 2012 4:54 pm; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: Linking Internal and External Lore: Norse, Arthurian, and Etymology in Dark Souls

    Post by skarekrow13 on Wed Mar 21, 2012 4:47 pm

    Upon closer inspection that's a unique sword I believe. Notice that the sword in ublug's pic has thorns and not the flares of the black knight greatsword. I was torn on the shield as it could be the crest or the swirling pattern of the artorias shield. I think the lighting and fog make it touch to definitely state which one it is. I agree that I think the facebook pic was modified as the thorns are missing, the blade is shaped a little differently and looks darker. The shield on facebook is also a little easier to see things with and it appears (to me at least) to be a ridged pattern like a lot of things associated with Artorias (shield, parts of the sword, crest and gate) and not a painted crest. The original art I won't make an argument for or against the shield in any way as it could be either just as easily.

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    Re: Linking Internal and External Lore: Norse, Arthurian, and Etymology in Dark Souls

    Post by Emergence on Wed Mar 21, 2012 5:07 pm

    If Gwyndolin is the painter of the pictures, then the exaggerated nature of Gwynevere in the painting and illusion could be a mixture of envy and reverance. Being raised a female without distinct female features would cause someone to be self conscious. Repressed or hidden strong feelings normally manifest themselves through art. What is interesting about the painting/illusion pose is the traditional tone of it. It is a pose used as a lover, but I have seen it in paintings to depict courtesans as well. There could be a subtle accusation here, or it could be a subtle affection. Not sure about the connection to Mordred, but I will look.

    Also, looking at the architecture the one image that seemed like a sun in a box, looked an awful lot like a kiln or oven to me. I will try and work out the symbology of the three images.

    And now for Tolkien...

    Anor Londo. In Sindarin, Anor means Sun, as in Minas Anor the White City of Gondor, The City of Kings. It's twin brother was Minas Ithil, which meant Tower of the Moon. It fell to dark and Became the city of the Nazgul (wraiths). Sound familiar?


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    Re: Linking Internal and External Lore: Norse, Arthurian, and Etymology in Dark Souls

    Post by Emergence on Wed Mar 21, 2012 5:12 pm

    By the way, great stuff being found! Gaining an immense appreciation for the influences used to make this game and how they crafted all this narrative together.


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    Re: Linking Internal and External Lore: Norse, Arthurian, and Etymology in Dark Souls

    Post by Emergence on Wed Mar 21, 2012 5:28 pm

    Looking at the three symbols of bread, kiln (oven), and child:

    Symbolism of Oven/Kiln: pretty overwhelmingly the female womb and it's ability to give birth.

    Symbolism of Bread: depending on the tradition but generally it means life. Either the cycle of life and death, resurrection in Egyptian culture, and eternal life in Judeo Christian

    If that third symbol is a child (or woman at a cradle) then we have renewal.

    The three together point to reverance of fertility, renewal. A bun in the oven. Possibly a metaphor for the life giving bounty provided by the fire. Despite Gwyn being the prominent deity, the symbology of this universe is very pro-mother. Throw in the Madonna statues scattered about and we have a pretty complete picture. The strength of these great men is made possible by the warm nurturing of the mother.


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    Re: Linking Internal and External Lore: Norse, Arthurian, and Etymology in Dark Souls

    Post by WyrmHero on Wed Mar 21, 2012 5:44 pm

    Emergence wrote:Looking at the three symbols of bread, kiln (oven), and child:

    Symbolism of Oven/Kiln: pretty overwhelmingly the female womb and it's ability to give birth.

    Symbolism of Bread: depending on the tradition but generally it means life. Either the cycle of life and death, resurrection in Egyptian culture, and eternal life in Judeo Christian

    If that third symbol is a child (or woman at a cradle) then we have renewal.

    The three together point to reverance of fertility, renewal. A bun in the oven. Possibly a metaphor for the life giving bounty provided by the fire. Despite Gwyn being the prominent deity, the symbology of this universe is very pro-mother. Throw in the Madonna statues scattered about and we have a pretty complete picture. The strength of these great men is made possible by the warm nurturing of the mother.



    Emergence great find there. I think the oven maybe representing the Kiln of the First Flame. Throw in Acidic's theory that Velka was the first Firekeeper, mother of Gwyn's sons and wife of Gwyn. Super connection there. Also the bread and the wheat represents Gwynevere, you can check her miracles descriptions and it says that she was also a Goddess of fertility.


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    Re: Linking Internal and External Lore: Norse, Arthurian, and Etymology in Dark Souls

    Post by skarekrow13 on Wed Mar 21, 2012 6:10 pm

    I was also thinking fertility and birth/rebirth themes. Great Tolkien stuff too. Very familiar. Speaking of female reverence look at the plates/wall near the statue in the parish. Looks like man lion and dragon paying tribute to the mother

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    Re: Linking Internal and External Lore: Norse, Arthurian, and Etymology in Dark Souls

    Post by Emergence on Wed Mar 21, 2012 7:33 pm

    I agree Wyrmhero, but switched. Deities are always personification of revered qualities. So rather than the bread represent Gwynevere, Gwynevere becomes emblematic of life and fertility.

    What the symbols to me mean is the first flame is viewed as the proverbial mother. Warmth, life giving, renewing. The first to find the flame attributed a very mother like quality to it (despite it being a non gendered physical reaction). When a society reveres an object as a specific gender, they will consequently revere and conjoin anything that encapsulates those qualities. So in this instance, upon the flame is projected motherlike qualities, therefore women are revered as flamelike and are elevated. Anthropologically, this makes sense in the assignment of gender roles. In a particular society, if the warring personifications are male, then the males fight the wars. In Lordran, females are closely linked with the fires, and as such their roles are defined as firekeepers, and maidens.


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    Re: Linking Internal and External Lore: Norse, Arthurian, and Etymology in Dark Souls

    Post by Emergence on Thu Mar 22, 2012 1:00 am

    I've been ousted form the TV so I can't look at those plates now Skarekrow lol. Couple of quick bites I found, both the names Gough and Flann mean red-haired and they are both of the same regional origin. Not sure if that is coincidence or intentional. Gwynevere was stated as leaving Anor Londo as wife to the Flame God Flann. Gough's whereabouts and his part in the play are more quiet. Seemed interesting that his ring is the only one tidily placed in a chest. There is nothing external lore wise to link Lancelot to Gough or Flann, so can't quite say Gwynevere left with Flann in an adulterous betrayal of Artorias or not.

    Something neat I came across was stuff related to Thor. The modern retelling of Thor by Marvel, has him cast out of Asgard, and stripped of his deity status due to overzealous pomp and pride. He was quick to go to war. Going back to the Norse mythos, he wielded the power of lightning. Going into the etymology of his hammer, Mjolnir means crusher, an amalgam of "melt" and "lightning". In the modern lore, he is wiped of his memory and is left with only his hammer, but is sent to earth as a disabled doctor.



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    Re: Linking Internal and External Lore: Norse, Arthurian, and Etymology in Dark Souls

    Post by skarekrow13 on Thu Mar 22, 2012 1:14 am

    Sounds a lot like our God if War. There's a thread about Andre being him that is kinda convincing. I just saw something about the statue that I've never seen mentioned. Gonna bring it up in that thread and see what they think. Also, starting to look into other areas but this character is a little limited in areas

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    Re: Linking Internal and External Lore: Norse, Arthurian, and Etymology in Dark Souls

    Post by skarekrow13 on Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:11 am

    So.....no major finds like the paintings today but a few thoughts to expand on.

    I spent a lot of time looking at the broken statue near the Sunlight Altar to see what connections I could make. I'm guessing some of this will already be on Acidic's thread but here are observations solely from my research and thoughts......

    I wanted to see for myself if I thought this was the God of War and I believe.....yes it is. The Sunlight covenant connection is obvious but just as importantly, the armor is near identical to Gwyn's, so the statue was either within the ranks very closely to Gwyn, related to Gwyn or both. The only differences I can tell in the armor are the shoulders and head. The robes appear identical (and similar to wallpaper patterns in the bedrooms of Anor Londo if you can beleive it) except Gwyn has either decorations/pauldrons from what I could tell. The statue is missing the crown as well. This is replaced with a simple helmet with either cloth or flexible mail sides that go over the ears (it doesn't look like chain mail to me). Both differences to me appear to say that this person is tied to Gwyn but not "King." The similarities could mean "heir" to the throne, so probable first born.

    The winged spear is of similar design to Ornstein's winged spear, but definitely not the dragonslayer as this one has a broader, flatter blade. Also, while both feature a dual set of wings with the second set being identical and doubling as handles (likely to retract the weapon from a victim) Ornstein's first set of wings is more of a bulbous area to prevent the blade from going too deeply. The statue's first set of wings looks just like the guard on Gywn's sword. The blade kinda looks like his too but mounted on a spear. I figure, as it's an area I am fairly good with I will add weapon lore to the mix if appropriate and everyone is interested. The spear is fairly consistent with many great heroes/gods but often is not a primary weapon. For battle purposes the winged spear would be used for a variety of things. As no one ever seems mounted I will just detail infantry use. The point of the wings is to prevent losing your spear from running someone through a little "too much" preventing the weapon from coming back out. For foot battles this allows for a kill, immediate retrieval, rinse and repeat. This would be used en masse typically as thrusting is the main method of attack. The use of a blade was intended not for slashing on most winged spears but to cause a wider wound on an unprotected warrior. After the first wave of attacks the spear might get abandoned for a different weapon, depending on the enemies' next wave and equipment and of course, infantry budget. The God of War's spear has an exaggerated blade which implies he would have been slashing as well. This is significant as Gods are often portrayed as the heart and soul of battle, not killing just one enemy at a time. Think Sauron's mace blasts in the movies. He's not hitting just one person at a time with this thing. The spear rather than a sword or similar weapon still means this would likely be used right out of the gate with the option to abandon later as traditionally you would get your rear handed to you in a skilled duel using this kind of spear. Unlike eastern spears, the intent was not to use like a staff weapon and attempts to do so would be easily blocked, destroying the spear. Also, against a heavily armored foe the force of the slash might break the shaft as opposed to a halberd which would be reinforced for this motion. So......a spear in the statue likely implies that this was an inspirational one, with him ready to lead into battle, not a duel or personal exploit. Also.....this means the only thing missing from the statue is what the "primary" weapon is. I did not notice a scabbard for a sword which could also be telling. I tried to piece the statue together mentally for the left hand and I believe the pose was meant to show him resting his left hand on something, not resting at his side, holding something up, etc.

    Until I read other threads I just assumed Solaire was the God of War as he sure likes the sun a great deal and seems a little lost. But after reading the thread about Andrei I wanted to take a closer look at this suspect. I noted the scars and possible Artorias connection before so there's that for sure. As the God of War, it could be said the Knights in Anor Londo were his domain and he is now looking over the other outcast warrior from the city of the sun, Artorias. The crest and feigned ignorance of the garden seem suspicious. I cycled through his dialogues last night as I hadn't really spoken to him this playthrough and I never noticed how helpful he is. I believe he's the only person who explicitly tells you a single thing. He tells you all about weapon upgrades and repairs with no agenda whatsoever. How did I not catch that before? He's literally the only helpful thing in the game. Kinda like he's watching over me....ha ha ha.... Another dialogue point I found interesting was his speech on how a good weapon is the only thing that won't betray you. Kind of an odd thing to say unless he's experienced betrayal and his default thing to trust is his arms. His strength is outrageous too. On NG I decided to kill all the NPCs to see what they'd give me to make sure I didn't miss anything. I did this endgame and and found little resistance at this point as I had upgraded my scythe to +15, had a good weight setup and around level 100 I think. Rickert was disappointing by the way....I was expecting a fourth hammer. Vamos and the Giant were easy. Depite being in an area with tougher enemies and later in the game.....Vamos never even got to show me what his attacks looked like. My first hit practically killed him and the second did. Andrei scared me. With nothing but his hands. And man......is he BIG. Recalling all the above I made sure to binocular the statue face first and returned to Andrei. I won't say anything is definitive but they look pretty similar.

    Rolling this all back together, if Andrei is the God of War then he ties in perfectly with the modern telling of Thor being exiled and stripped of his power but unable to completely let go of his true self.

    So part of the reason I didn't do much exploring last night was because I went back to the Rembrandts hoping to find a signature. No dice.....I was looking for an "A" as Rembrandt initially signed with an "R." The only suspicious marking I saw was a black symbol on the painted world painting that looks like the eye of Ra on one of the towers.

    A few more painting notes.....WyrmHero pointed out the painting that could be a bridge in the kiln or painted world. I believe those are good theories. It kind of looks like the kiln after the explosion melted some things. I also thought it could be New Londo being flooded, as the melted ore look also resembled waves crashing in. Please add to this if you go take a look. That painting is intriguing. Also of interest is the stone henge looking one. I must have been more fascinated with the portraits because it is definitely pillars. There is a tower in the background in shadows and a shadowy figure in the middle of the pillars. The shadowy figure either looks like a tree or Nito. There looks like the wall to Anor Londo slightly below the pillars. The entire scene is from the top of a cliff area. One of the paintings of Anor Londo and the Painting of Sen's caught my eye again. The Anor Londo picture appears distorted/decaying, as in the city is not the painting. This again reminded me of war/chaos. The Sen's painting is EXTREMELY interesting upon closer look. The fortress looks more dilapidated than when we come across it in game suggesting it is older. However, and this is the interesting part, I at first glance thought "this can't be Sen's fortress because it's on a cliff face but the doors and facade are right." It finally hit.....there are no trees. Sen's is on a cliff of course but I always was tricked into thinking different due to the height of the trees. The painting is then either before the trees grew (which would be weird due to the state of disrepair) or after we get there and the trees have been removed.

    Also in the room and of no particular known connection (yet) are a still life of flowers and a landscape of a piece of rocky land jutting into the sea.

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    Re: Linking Internal and External Lore: Norse, Arthurian, and Etymology in Dark Souls

    Post by Emergence on Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:48 am

    Huh, Andrei as the GoW? Interesting. He does have a penchant for a hammer, and refusal to work on anything but normal or faith based weaponry. Guess it's all speculation though, wish I could find something externally to confirm it.

    I really need to go look at those paintings!


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    Re: Linking Internal and External Lore: Norse, Arthurian, and Etymology in Dark Souls

    Post by Serious_Much on Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:50 am

    Anyone tried hitting up the etymology for the pendant yet?

    I'm pretty sure it comes from the latin roots of the words "false" and "hope"

    on a more serious note I am enjoying the ideas being thrown around by people as to the God of War and Sen. Interesting that more people believe the andre theory than Cook's Sen idea.


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    Re: Linking Internal and External Lore: Norse, Arthurian, and Etymology in Dark Souls

    Post by skarekrow13 on Thu Mar 22, 2012 1:41 pm

    I forget who posted it but the Sen link is to a Japanese castle set up to repel invaders. Pretty convincing theory on the fortress despite mechanical and style differences. I would have to read Acidic's theories on Sen as I don't recall much info (if any) in game on Sen. Apology to Acidic as I know how hard he works on his thread but I rarely visit as, with this game at least, I follow rule #1 for my day job......never deliberately start your search with someone else's opinion, only add them once you have your own based off of observations and evidence in hand. I know it's a long rule.....the short and sweet is "remain objective."

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    Re: Linking Internal and External Lore: Norse, Arthurian, and Etymology in Dark Souls

    Post by Emergence on Thu Mar 22, 2012 3:40 pm

    Good spot btw on the Stone Giants being lefty! Too bad the boxart seems all fubar at this point, that we won't be able to fully surmise it's intent.


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    Re: Linking Internal and External Lore: Norse, Arthurian, and Etymology in Dark Souls

    Post by Serious_Much on Thu Mar 22, 2012 3:47 pm

    emergence with the box art i reckon it's also worth mentioning that it's only in the Namco Release where it depicts what we presume is artorias..

    On the japanese version thats on our wiki frontpage it doesn't show this, not sure if such a hint would be given to some players but not others :|


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