Linking Internal and External Lore: Norse, Arthurian, and Etymology in Dark Souls

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    Re: Linking Internal and External Lore: Norse, Arthurian, and Etymology in Dark Souls

    Post by skarekrow13 on Tue Mar 20, 2012 1:56 pm

    Well if he's Arthurian....a return from Avalon was all part of the plan big grin

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    Re: Linking Internal and External Lore: Norse, Arthurian, and Etymology in Dark Souls

    Post by Emergence on Tue Mar 20, 2012 2:01 pm

    Oh and the only reference I could find for Ornstein was a composer. His name Leo Ornstein. Leo? Leo Ring? If that ain't the cosmos playing a trick...


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    Re: Linking Internal and External Lore: Norse, Arthurian, and Etymology in Dark Souls

    Post by WyrmHero on Tue Mar 20, 2012 2:05 pm

    Guys I think the sword on the Boxart is too small to be Artorias'. The knight on the boxart doesn't wields the Greatshield either, that's a Crest Shield....


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    Re: Linking Internal and External Lore: Norse, Arthurian, and Etymology in Dark Souls

    Post by Emergence on Tue Mar 20, 2012 2:06 pm

    Ok so in Avalon, Excalibur was forged there and that is also where Arthur returned to rest as you said. That grove is a home of sorts for Artorias.


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    Re: Linking Internal and External Lore: Norse, Arthurian, and Etymology in Dark Souls

    Post by Emergence on Tue Mar 20, 2012 2:08 pm

    You are right, there is debate on whether that is Artorias on the box due to the shield so stating he is definitely Sif is not possible despite any left handed similarities.


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    Re: Linking Internal and External Lore: Norse, Arthurian, and Etymology in Dark Souls

    Post by Serious_Much on Tue Mar 20, 2012 2:09 pm

    Emergence wrote:Oh and the only reference I could find for Ornstein was a composer. His name Leo Ornstein. Leo? Leo Ring? If that ain't the cosmos playing a trick...

    I think this guy maybe too: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonard_Salomon_Ornstein

    guy's a physicist, suppose there's a tenuous link to ornsteins ability to basically teleport and wield lightning?


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    Re: Linking Internal and External Lore: Norse, Arthurian, and Etymology in Dark Souls

    Post by skarekrow13 on Tue Mar 20, 2012 2:10 pm

    Interesting on Gough possibly originating from "goff" which means "smith" as his ring is by the Giant Blacksmith. On Ciaran being a dreivative of Ciara.....good call. Just looked at that more myself as well as the hornet ring's description. You've convinced me Emergence. The hornet ring's description does sound like an assassin. I am still of the belief that Artorias died elsewhere as I can't find any evidence that his murderers would honor him so or spare Sif. Someone went to a lot of trouble for that grave. Also interesting is again the gender of things. Ciara seems to be a predominantly female name. The ring gives no clue to gender again. I only mention this as we had brought up the possibility of a love interest for Artorias. Perhaps Gwynevere wasn't it, or like Arthur and Guinevere, things got a little "complicated." A female knight smitten with Artorias fits well with my O&S rise to power idea too. Initially, when Artorias was leading the crew, Ciaran followed Artorias' lead (two peas in a pod if you will). Gough can fit in a variety of scenarios. After Artorias changes sides Ciaran feels the MOST betrayed and is a willing accomplice. I lean toward the messenger bringing one last gift to Artorias idea still (guilt from Ciaran) but your behind the grave idea still lingers.

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    Re: Linking Internal and External Lore: Norse, Arthurian, and Etymology in Dark Souls

    Post by Carphil on Tue Mar 20, 2012 2:18 pm



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    Re: Linking Internal and External Lore: Norse, Arthurian, and Etymology in Dark Souls

    Post by Emergence on Tue Mar 20, 2012 2:20 pm

    Or a mssenger went through great trouble to place the item at the grave to implicate his murderer.


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    Re: Linking Internal and External Lore: Norse, Arthurian, and Etymology in Dark Souls

    Post by skarekrow13 on Tue Mar 20, 2012 2:22 pm

    Excellent Orstein finds, both are intriguing for sure! Just compared Smough to Smaug from LotR and only connection is that Smaug's weak point was his left breast while Smough just has ridiculous breasts on his armor. In all seriousness though I do consider this a possible connection as the armor depicts his front side as looking soft and weak. Other parts of the armor do not portray any exceptional girth. The leggings have wide flares but without the chest piece appear to be typical size.

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    Re: Linking Internal and External Lore: Norse, Arthurian, and Etymology in Dark Souls

    Post by skarekrow13 on Tue Mar 20, 2012 2:41 pm

    Just took a look at that thread Carphil. Thanks! We're not the first to tread here. Not surprised. I still don't think there's much chance that the corpse behind the grave is Ciaran's due to body size. I know the name translates to "small dark one" per Emergence but that body woulda been just plain tiny in that world. We seem small and we're much larger than the corpses in the game (based on perceived height I know they're dessicated). I just looked at Ingward's dialogue too. There's nothing in there really except that he considers the Four Kings the masters of the Darkwraith Covenant and a threat to humans and anything with a soul. His only reference to Artorias is that he knew how to walk the Abyss. He then suggest you find him for help, suggesting Ingward is aware that he left the city after he walked the Abyss.

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    Re: Linking Internal and External Lore: Norse, Arthurian, and Etymology in Dark Souls

    Post by Emergence on Tue Mar 20, 2012 2:46 pm

    Nice excerpt from that thread, not surprised Acidic picked up on that! Corroborates what we have said about Ciaran. If a new connection has been made here, I would say it's the Arthur and Excalibur vein which had a lot of ore to mine.

    And the Ornstein link is intriguing. I mean his name is so out of place in the context of everyone else that there is something to it.


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    Re: Linking Internal and External Lore: Norse, Arthurian, and Etymology in Dark Souls

    Post by User on Tue Mar 20, 2012 3:47 pm

    Heh, well Emergence, let us put it this way:

    The wolf inherited the sword of artorias, however it is unlikely that it is that the wolf is the abysswalker, but more so perhaps simialr to that of Gwyn and his Silver Knights. As the Knights I have seen show signs of them being Golems (the black humanity, the silver souls), it may be that the wolf is a piece of Artorias in which was left to defend the ring, the version in which was not altered by the dark. It could be that, as you describe Sif and the god of thunder (nice find, btw), that Sif is more so an incarnation that is a piece of artorias. As it is that the left handed are seen as the strange (yes, in the medieval times or so), and sometimes a spawn of evil (although might not be the case here), it could be that it might be tjat, as the knight the abysswalker is different than Ornstein (seemingly favouring a sword of divine than sun), he could have been a somewhat advisor towards Gwyn. Strangely hsis word and Gwyn's robes are both the same content of Velka in terms of texture (I checked the prologue. Similar to same robes, although somewhat the clothes are different, the texture is the same).

    Perhaps the beast of the wolf is a piece of Artorias himself. Although I doubt it as the whole. The Four Kings I still see as the physical form of Artorias himself, although whether it is a manifestation of him or a ghost (as his blade and texture are the same as the ghosts of New Londo... although more physical and less transient curses), it can be that the Four Kings is a somewhat ghostly figure of what Artorias had been when he was cursed. Perhaps it would be that he gave the sword to his essence, the wolf, while his physical form stayed in New Londo. Perhaps such alteration of himself has caused his switch of hand, from the strange to the normal (the normal being the cursed forms that exist within the world... hm).

    I thank you Caphril, how their are still some who remember the old forums. I will talk about the God of War soon, as well as the titanite. Hopefully I can do this in less than an hour.
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    Re: Linking Internal and External Lore: Norse, Arthurian, and Etymology in Dark Souls

    Post by skarekrow13 on Tue Mar 20, 2012 3:48 pm

    Just read through Alvina's dialogue and read forest hunter related stuff and came across some interesting ideas which corroborate our ideas. Nothing really new but further evidence for our theories. The Crest of Artorias warns that it might be dangerous in the hands of the "uninitiated." The danger is specifically stated to be from "local bandits." From this description I believe that the Crest's original intention is part of the Forest Hunter covenant. It can only be used "safely" (i.e. without fear of attack) if initiated into the Covenant, possibly making the crest a key for Covenant members (although it could be a unique item we run across as well). I stated this earlier but the Cat Covenant ring indicates Alvina is friends with Artorias and Sif. Looking through her dialogue she seems pretty persistent in convincing you to abandon the quest for Artorias' grave. She even equates Abysswalking to a fairy tale. As we can be certain she is not accurate, her only possible motive I can see to say this is to lie to protect the grave and/or Sif. As Alvina has little means to reward members (at least compared to other covenants) she promises that they keep the spoils from other invaders. This suggests that the Forest Covenant is made of the bandits the crest warns about (going full circle here). Alvina expresses distrust of Shiva if you do well in the Covenant feeling that he might betray the clan. No exact "betrayal" is given but from Shiva's dialogue it appears he is fond of looting. He also comes close to a threat by indicating you'll see how tough his bodyguard can be (although he could mean that you'll see when you co-op in the forest which you actually don't do but whatever). Alvina is more than willing to tell you that betrayal is not forgiven and seems to be also close to threatening you. She says this confidently. When discussing Shiva it is more hushed, possibly fearful. Is she afraid he might loot the grave. It appears from his armor at the cliff that he tried something at some point and paid for it.

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    Re: Linking Internal and External Lore: Norse, Arthurian, and Etymology in Dark Souls

    Post by Emergence on Tue Mar 20, 2012 4:31 pm

    The meanings of the name Alvina: elf friend, noble friend, amicable, loved by everyone, magical being. So there it is. I should add etymology to the thread's title, no?


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    Re: Linking Internal and External Lore: Norse, Arthurian, and Etymology in Dark Souls

    Post by Serious_Much on Tue Mar 20, 2012 4:46 pm

    Absolutely emergence.

    though it's just you doing that kind of analysis here really lol!


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    Re: Linking Internal and External Lore: Norse, Arthurian, and Etymology in Dark Souls

    Post by skarekrow13 on Tue Mar 20, 2012 4:57 pm

    Lol......Maybe something like "Linking external and internal lore in Dark Souls. P.S. We all love Artorias" for a thread title.

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    Re: Linking Internal and External Lore: Norse, Arthurian, and Etymology in Dark Souls

    Post by WyrmHero on Tue Mar 20, 2012 4:59 pm

    Acidic_Cook wrote:Heh, well Emergence, let us put it this way:

    The wolf inherited the sword of artorias, however it is unlikely that it is that the wolf is the abysswalker, but more so perhaps simialr to that of Gwyn and his Silver Knights. As the Knights I have seen show signs of them being Golems (the black humanity, the silver souls), it may be that the wolf is a piece of Artorias in which was left to defend the ring, the version in which was not altered by the dark. It could be that, as you describe Sif and the god of thunder (nice find, btw), that Sif is more so an incarnation that is a piece of artorias. As it is that the left handed are seen as the strange (yes, in the medieval times or so), and sometimes a spawn of evil (although might not be the case here), it could be that it might be tjat, as the knight the abysswalker is different than Ornstein (seemingly favouring a sword of divine than sun), he could have been a somewhat advisor towards Gwyn. Strangely hsis word and Gwyn's robes are both the same content of Velka in terms of texture (I checked the prologue. Similar to same robes, although somewhat the clothes are different, the texture is the same).

    Perhaps the beast of the wolf is a piece of Artorias himself. Although I doubt it as the whole. The Four Kings I still see as the physical form of Artorias himself, although whether it is a manifestation of him or a ghost (as his blade and texture are the same as the ghosts of New Londo... although more physical and less transient curses), it can be that the Four Kings is a somewhat ghostly figure of what Artorias had been when he was cursed. Perhaps it would be that he gave the sword to his essence, the wolf, while his physical form stayed in New Londo. Perhaps such alteration of himself has caused his switch of hand, from the strange to the normal (the normal being the cursed forms that exist within the world... hm).

    I thank you Caphril, how their are still some who remember the old forums. I will talk about the God of War soon, as well as the titanite. Hopefully I can do this in less than an hour.

    I agree with you Acid. I think too, that the Wolf is Artorias' light part, and when he transformed into a Dark being, this part (his soul/will) left him to guard his grave. His grave because he was no longer the willful Sir Artorias, but an corrupted and cursed being of Darkness. I agree he is Four Kings.


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    Re: Linking Internal and External Lore: Norse, Arthurian, and Etymology in Dark Souls

    Post by Emergence on Tue Mar 20, 2012 5:19 pm

    And that is all quite possible. The purpose of the thread here is to attempt to take cues from the external lore that inspired the game and take that kind of conjecture and make it into a certainty.


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    Re: Linking Internal and External Lore: Norse, Arthurian, and Etymology in Dark Souls

    Post by Serious_Much on Tue Mar 20, 2012 5:23 pm

    WyrmHero wrote:
    Acidic_Cook wrote:Heh, well Emergence, let us put it this way:

    The wolf inherited the sword of artorias, however it is unlikely that it is that the wolf is the abysswalker, but more so perhaps simialr to that of Gwyn and his Silver Knights. As the Knights I have seen show signs of them being Golems (the black humanity, the silver souls), it may be that the wolf is a piece of Artorias in which was left to defend the ring, the version in which was not altered by the dark. It could be that, as you describe Sif and the god of thunder (nice find, btw), that Sif is more so an incarnation that is a piece of artorias. As it is that the left handed are seen as the strange (yes, in the medieval times or so), and sometimes a spawn of evil (although might not be the case here), it could be that it might be tjat, as the knight the abysswalker is different than Ornstein (seemingly favouring a sword of divine than sun), he could have been a somewhat advisor towards Gwyn. Strangely hsis word and Gwyn's robes are both the same content of Velka in terms of texture (I checked the prologue. Similar to same robes, although somewhat the clothes are different, the texture is the same).

    Perhaps the beast of the wolf is a piece of Artorias himself. Although I doubt it as the whole. The Four Kings I still see as the physical form of Artorias himself, although whether it is a manifestation of him or a ghost (as his blade and texture are the same as the ghosts of New Londo... although more physical and less transient curses), it can be that the Four Kings is a somewhat ghostly figure of what Artorias had been when he was cursed. Perhaps it would be that he gave the sword to his essence, the wolf, while his physical form stayed in New Londo. Perhaps such alteration of himself has caused his switch of hand, from the strange to the normal (the normal being the cursed forms that exist within the world... hm).

    I thank you Caphril, how their are still some who remember the old forums. I will talk about the God of War soon, as well as the titanite. Hopefully I can do this in less than an hour.

    I agree with you Acid. I think too, that the Wolf is Artorias' light part, and when he transformed into a Dark being, this part (his soul/will) left him to guard his grave. His grave because he was no longer the willful Sir Artorias, but an corrupted and cursed being of Darkness. I agree he is Four Kings.

    frankly, i have to disagree. The four kings thing I find reasonable. Sif being part of Artorias? nadda. That's stretching an already thin premise a bit too far.

    He's just a Giant knight's big fluffy adorable pet in my eyes, don't know why we cant just accept that sad silly


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    Re: Linking Internal and External Lore: Norse, Arthurian, and Etymology in Dark Souls

    Post by User on Tue Mar 20, 2012 5:30 pm

    The sword was part of Artorias itself, as the weapons of other bosses create such weapons that define them as well. It is not far out of a stretch that the essence of Artorias is with Sif, as it is stated that the wolf inherited the sword of the abysswalker. Such ties could say that as the sword was on e part of Artorias, it is now part of the wolf. It may not have created the wolf, but it has created what the wolf is now... Similar to that of the iron golem.
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    Re: Linking Internal and External Lore: Norse, Arthurian, and Etymology in Dark Souls

    Post by Emergence on Tue Mar 20, 2012 5:32 pm

    Folks, I edited the topic's title and the first post to better reflect what the focus is. The focus here is on the links between external and internal lore how the former may affect the latter. It would be best to not debate opinions unless they are more precise involvements of external lore, or instances where internal lore explicitly contradicts any external cues.


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    Re: Linking Internal and External Lore: Norse, Arthurian, and Etymology in Dark Souls

    Post by User on Tue Mar 20, 2012 5:33 pm

    sorry emergence. I was just trying to help support what i said before to emergence.

    I do not look up external links, so ideas as such in which shows such definitions and similarities to the game helps.
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    Re: Linking Internal and External Lore: Norse, Arthurian, and Etymology in Dark Souls

    Post by Emergence on Tue Mar 20, 2012 5:39 pm

    I agree, I think folks who focus on in game lore and folks who focus on external lore illuminate one another. So by all means, since you have tons of in game lore mapped out, if you see something that is clearly spelled out that either confirms or denies anything here, then feel free to share.


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    Re: Linking Internal and External Lore: Norse, Arthurian, and Etymology in Dark Souls

    Post by WyrmHero on Tue Mar 20, 2012 5:40 pm

    Yeah if you guys have any opinions or ideas about who is Sif you can talk about that on the thread I've created below.


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