Linking Internal and External Lore: Norse, Arthurian, and Etymology in Dark Souls

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    Re: Linking Internal and External Lore: Norse, Arthurian, and Etymology in Dark Souls

    Post by Tolvo on Tue Mar 19, 2013 7:32 pm

    So a small thing which I can't remember if it was ever brought up.

    The Gates of hell, a classic sort of idea in which the entrance to hell is some sort of wall or gateway which must be opened.

    However there are some older versions of this which had a very different idea. Coming up from the bowels, the depths of the world and sometimes depicted as being underwater Hell would be entered via a creature. It would often be black and have the head of a dog, with a massive maw and always exposed teeth that literally engulf beings sending them below. Perhaps From used a bit of this imagery in regards to the Primordial Serpents and their traversing of the abyss.
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    Re: Linking Internal and External Lore: Norse, Arthurian, and Etymology in Dark Souls

    Post by WhatDoesThePendantDo? on Tue Mar 19, 2013 8:11 pm

    What about the Jupiter/Artorias thing?

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    Re: Linking Internal and External Lore: Norse, Arthurian, and Etymology in Dark Souls

    Post by Tolvo on Tue Mar 19, 2013 9:06 pm

    I don't remember where I was going with that.

    A quick wiki search does show that there is a relations in the name though, a form of Artorias, Arātrius, also meant Jupiter. Apparently the name is similar to the word for "Being fit to plow."

    Another thing is what has been mentioned before I believe, that the word Arthur came from Artorias. Meaning that there is a link between Knight Artorias and King Arthur. There is even a historical general named Artorias that is also believed to be the real life version of King Arthur.

    Lucius Artorius Castus

    Apparently his grave was marked as such,

    D...............................M
    L ARTORI[.........]STVS 7 LEG
    III GALLICAE ITEM [....]G VI FERRA
    TAE ITEM 7 LEG II ADI[....]TEM LEG V M
    C ITEM P P EIVSDEM [...] PRAEPOSITO
    CLASSIS MISENATIVM [..]AEFF LEG VI
    VICTRICIS DVCI LEGG [...]M BRITAN{I}CI
    MIARVM ADVERSVS ARM[....]S PROC CENTE
    NARIO PROVINCIAE LI[....] GLADI VI
    VVS IPSE SIBI ET SVIS [....]ST[...]

    I'm not entirely sure of the translation...However, this reminds me a great deal of the English Letter Wall which lowers in the Catacombs.

    Apparently he was one of the highest ranking members of the Roman Legion, being essentially third in command during his time. He was apparently sharing his position with others, but how many others of his rank there were isn't stated. Apparently he eventually led his own legion.
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    Re: Linking Internal and External Lore: Norse, Arthurian, and Etymology in Dark Souls

    Post by Tolvo on Tue Mar 19, 2013 9:25 pm

    I figured i should also mention Gwyn ap Nudd, a Welsh mythological being that takes part in Arthurian lore. He is a god like being that is the son of Lludd. Lludd was associated with a few plagues as well as being of Silver.

    Gwyn, his son, was known as being a powerful warrior who would take souls. He was associated with the Wild Hunt and had a blackened face while the rest of him was seen as white. He was the enemy of devils and ruled over the welsh form of Paradise, Annwn. Annwn was known for having battles fought over it, one such battle had Gwydion, another figure, raising the trees themselves and animating them to do battle. Gwydion was seen as a trickster, a liar and power magician.

    Just a few Welsh things.
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    Re: Linking Internal and External Lore: Norse, Arthurian, and Etymology in Dark Souls

    Post by Acarnatia on Tue Mar 19, 2013 10:12 pm

    The supposed historical Arthur is Ator/Artur, believed to come from art/arth, 'bear.'


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    Re: Linking Internal and External Lore: Norse, Arthurian, and Etymology in Dark Souls

    Post by Tolvo on Fri Mar 22, 2013 7:02 pm

    I have discovered an alarming similarity to another game series and a figure in Greek Myth, I think it will finally lead us towards the correct God of War.

    In Greek Myth I heard of a character that while he isn't initially the God of War, there are relations to him. Before I get onto him I would like to talk about Ares.

    Ares was a strange God that felt through Kidnapping he could end prophecy of one who would kill the gods. Sound similar? That's right, he knew of the Undead Prophecy which is reflected in another game. So the Chosen undead can be seen as this character, the protagonist.

    In Greek Lore, after a grueling fight with a Demi-God, Ares was pierced through the heart. This undead, or demi-god like man then gained the powers of Ares becoming the New God of War. With anger towards the god of Lightning and other Gods, he started his quest having given up his past. So you see, From actually took the idea from Greek Myth and the protagonist of another game. This person we actually play as. It's so obvious I can't believe I never realized who we were all along.

    I have put it in spoilers below for those who wish to discover who the God of War is themself.

    Spoiler:
    We obviously play as Kratos. Our Lust for Blood, our use of various weaponry. He even uses bows and magic. I mean come on, this game has swords and old weaponry and so does Dark Souls. It's so obvious how could we have ever Missed that From Software is obviously a big fan of the GoW franchise? Zeus, is Gwyn obviously. Kratos, we are Kratos. The Chosen undead is Kratos, the God of War.



    Now I will be looking to the Star Wars Expanded Universe for the Pendant and its relations to the Force. Wish me luck in my search for lore!
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    Re: Linking Internal and External Lore: Norse, Arthurian, and Etymology in Dark Souls

    Post by Emergence on Fri Mar 22, 2013 8:02 pm

    You *** lol. I read that entire first half with rapt attention.


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    Re: Linking Internal and External Lore: Norse, Arthurian, and Etymology in Dark Souls

    Post by Tolvo on Fri Mar 22, 2013 8:06 pm

    I tried to put as little effort into splicing the image as I could.
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    Re: Linking Internal and External Lore: Norse, Arthurian, and Etymology in Dark Souls

    Post by skarekrow13 on Sat Mar 23, 2013 12:14 am

    winking

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    Re: Linking Internal and External Lore: Norse, Arthurian, and Etymology in Dark Souls

    Post by densetsushun on Sat Mar 23, 2013 6:51 am

    Tolvo you genius silly


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    Re: Linking Internal and External Lore: Norse, Arthurian, and Etymology in Dark Souls

    Post by EverlastingRat on Tue Apr 09, 2013 9:44 am

    thanks skarekrow13 for pointing this thread out...oh and hello brothers(and sisters?) in lore.

    ok well i posted this elsewhere but i'd rather add to this instead:

    Ok so I've been doing some digging around and I started thinking about this Flann dude. I mean he's the God of Mothfuqn FIRE, which everybody is always sploogin their pants over. This guy has got to be a big deal. I mentioned it another post, about him and the nameless Blacksmith Deity(since the blacksmith needs FIRE to forge weapons, plus he could be connected to the Firstborn aka the god of war) being somehow connected maybe one and the same...

    Then I started to think about Jiggly puff being married to Flann. Then I thought about how maybe it's relatable to Aphrodite and Hephaestus, the god of blacksmiths. Well how can Gwynevere be inspired by Aprodite( they are both loved by all). Well let's look at her roman counterpart, Venus also know as Lucifer, which means "LIGHT BRINGER"...wait isn't Gwynevere the Princess of SunLIGHT?... Also, I don't know if this matters but Venus is the second planet, as Gwynevere is the second child of Gwyn, from the Sun. The First is Mercury. I thought that may somehow give me some clues as to who might be the FIRSTborn, but all I could find relateble to Dark Souls, is Mercury aides/guides the Dead on their Journey, then I started to think well who has aided me on my journey throughout the game and well only one NPC that i can think of who helps you, granted you do everything right, throughout most of the game, even with the final boss... :affraid: but then again, Mercury is the Messenger God and maybe it could be that knight dude who helps you in the very beginning and tosses you a body with the key, as his way of "delivering his message" Also I thought about, well Earth is the third planet, and obviously I thought about Gwydolin, and thought immediately about the snakes, which seems extremely symbolic, connected to both the EARTH and duality. I thought about the earth and obvious with what i'm trying to tie together, but then I'm thinking about the duality and how he's the "God of the MOON", an opposing theme/symbol to his father, the SUN. His attire is very symbolic, It appears that the helm, the sun, is shining down, the robes, on the snakes, roots/earth(we constantly see roots throughout the game and I forgot, but someone point this out, that the roots imagery could be relatable to Norse mythos)

    Am I drawing lines to dots that aren't there? What do you guys think? I'd like to know if anyone else, also love other ancient cultures' lore, would know of any other things that seem very interesting and somewhat related to DkS lore.

    By the way, I'm not sure who the Firstborn is, and honestly I don't think he might even be in the game.


    We can piece it together brethren, I've notice many are adept in the knowledge of different cultural lore/mythos...I myself have studied a few different ones in college, but as a kid in middle through high school, i was up on mediterranean/middle eastern lore (greek, christianity, judaic, islamic, and some of the sun-worshipping cults, and on side note have gotten heavy on most rooting back to entheogenic cultures' lore and symbolism) I guess I'm a lore head and i love this stuff for inspiration for art, so i thank you all for opening my eyes to some new and awesome imagery. big grin


    Last edited by EverlastingRat on Tue Apr 09, 2013 11:25 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: Linking Internal and External Lore: Norse, Arthurian, and Etymology in Dark Souls

    Post by skarekrow13 on Tue Apr 09, 2013 10:54 am

    I forgot to welcome you properly to the Archives, where only the least sane of us have chosen to dwell for any length of time.

    A word of caution, some of us textwallers (such as myself) have literally and figuratively exhausted our brains on this stuff awhile ago. Basically, we don't cough up new ideas a lot anymore.

    However, if we see a newcomer we'll try to encourage new ideas and discussions whenever possible. Like this post, as you can see we've had similar discussions but I don't recall this one exactly. So don't be discouraged if it doesn't spark a lot of extra dialogue but know there's readers here and we appreciate the new stuff.

    I especially like the planet idea. Gwynevere and Gwyndolin do seem to be a match. Generally speaking, I think it's believed the God of War = the Firstborn which would actually be Mars I think. Maybe they went out of order? Either way the planet idea is intriguing.

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    Re: Linking Internal and External Lore: Norse, Arthurian, and Etymology in Dark Souls

    Post by EverlastingRat on Tue Apr 09, 2013 11:20 am

    shhtt, I completely forgot about Mars...hahahaha, oh yeah I wrote that late in the night and to top it off I'm trying to fight this sickness off so yeah, I should've been sleeping... I just see some similarities but sometimes I wonder if I'm forcing connections.. winking

    yeah I'm new to the whole lore aspect of the game and just started getting into it about a month ago, so to me this is all fresh and I figured that some have moved on and/or are burnt..but I'll still post any interesting ideas i come up with, regardless whether others are adding or not
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    Re: Linking Internal and External Lore: Norse, Arthurian, and Etymology in Dark Souls

    Post by Tolvo on Fri Jun 21, 2013 7:04 pm

    Apparently, in the mythology of the Admiralty Islanders, there is a story about how fire came to be.  There was once a serpent parent with human children.  The snake caught some fish and gave them to his children to cook.  They brought the fish out into the sun to let them cook from the sun, and it ends up still be raw.  The snake parent instead teaches the children how to make and use fires, so they may survive.  Some small similarities, the relation of the Primordial Serpents and the fire, along with the idea of the rebellion against the dragons and what fire played in part with that.
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    Re: Linking Internal and External Lore: Norse, Arthurian, and Etymology in Dark Souls

    Post by Emergence on Fri Jun 21, 2013 9:01 pm

    Reviving my favorite thread of all time. +1


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    Re: Linking Internal and External Lore: Norse, Arthurian, and Etymology in Dark Souls

    Post by skarekrow13 on Fri Jun 21, 2013 9:38 pm

    I know right. Tolvo! Tolvo! Tolvo!

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    Re: Linking Internal and External Lore: Norse, Arthurian, and Etymology in Dark Souls

    Post by Tolvo on Fri Jun 21, 2013 9:53 pm

    I'm working on some projects running games, and helping people running games, so I'm studying materials, magic forms, etc.  Focusing more on general mythology and history, and I'll be stumbling across things every now and then that I feel fit here.  I don't come around as often as I used to, but I'm still here.
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    Re: Linking Internal and External Lore: Norse, Arthurian, and Etymology in Dark Souls

    Post by Tolvo on Sun Jun 23, 2013 3:06 pm

    So a small minor thing, not actually mythology related but external.  In history there was once a leader born in India, he was well known for his use of Guerilla Warfare being a pioneer of it and one of the first people to ever deploy it.  He was known for his spy networks, people he would like to keep hidden but always close to him for information gathering.  A weapon that he had deployed among his troops was the vaghnakh, or tiger claw. To him mobility, ambushes, and attacks in places like forests as others merely traveled through were very important.  Now he mostly fought from horse back, was considered to be one of the most morally upstanding people around, and he focused a lot on conquest so those are detractors.  But perhaps for Shiva, there was a little bit of influence from this historical figure in regards to his massive focus on pioneering Guerilla Warfare.


    Last edited by Tolvo on Fri Jul 12, 2013 12:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: Linking Internal and External Lore: Norse, Arthurian, and Etymology in Dark Souls

    Post by Tolvo on Fri Jul 12, 2013 11:01 am

    So another Greek thing.

    So, there are concepts in Greek Mythology.  The gods, which are represented I believe by the Lords.  They fought against the dragons and inherited the Earth.  the Dragons seem to represent the titans.  However, people forget some things.  There were beings before even the titans in Greek Mythology, the Primordials.  One such is Chaos, the void, also seen as evil and emptiness.  Typically a hero is to face Chaos, and the beasts of Chaos, which are typically represented as Serpents and Dragons.  Chaos in Greek also means Abyss.  In their mythology there are two main interpretations of Chaos, a state before the world, or the state that spawned the world.  Thus either Chaos existed before everything, or everything exists because of Chaos.

    Erebus, Primordial of Darkness was one of the first beings to exist.  

    Gaia and Uranus were the main beings that bred to create the majority of the titans.  Mind you, Uranus is the Sky and Gaia is the Earth, thus a mix of Earth and Sky.  Dragons that are made of stone but inhabit the sky may go with this concept.  

    Tartarus was the primordial of the deep abyss, a place of imprisonment and torment for one's actions.  After the defeat of the titans, they were cast into the abyss in Greek Mythology by Zeus and the other gods.  The titans sort of fitting here in the concept of the dragons representing the titans.  

    Chronos, the god of time was often considered very serpentine in nature.  In their classic ideas him and the Primordial Ananke coiled around the world and followed each other, slithering across the world and being essentially infinite in length.  Ananke's names had many meanings, fate, necessity, force, enforcement by demons or the gods, inevitability.  She was seen as the ultimate decider of one's fate.  

    There is Eros primordial of Love, nothing about him really fits in with anything Dark Souls.  Well unless...One can consider that he was seen as a primordial, but also a titan in some sources, and in others a god.  Meaning he could work as primordial, a dragon, or a lord.  In essence, he was one that always wished for love and liked to meddle in the affairs of mortals, and gods.  He was born blind, and had strange magic that was not of fire like some of the other primordials.  He had a great interest in women, and eventually fell in love with a human woman.  The other gods did not like this and tried to fight it, but eventually he and Psyche's love survived.  Eros has wings as well, and would also like to touch women.  It should also be noted Psyche, his great love, had butterfly wings.  Her name means butterfly, but it also means Soul and Breath.  

    Hemera sadly has nothing of note to her.

    Nyx again I couldn't find much.

    Phanes is when things get interesting, Phanes' name means "I Bring To Light."  He was seen as the representation of Sunlight, and was married to Nyx, Night.  He was also known as Protogonos, meaning First-Born.  Phanes was characterized as being recognized by his helmet, golden wings, and the color gold.  He was seen as being related to Chronos and Anenke, possibly their child.  Meaning Time and Fate were important aspects to him.  Mingling, relationships, companionship, these things were very important to him.  He inherited the role as leader of the Primordials, and held a scepter to do so.  But he passed it on to his wife.  And she then passed it on to Uranus.  He is also known for fighting against Chaos frequently.

    Pontus unfortunately I couldn't find much.

    Thalassa I also found little.

    Uranus, I'll probably have to come back later.  From his blood when he was castrated many creatures were born.  The Giants.  The Erinyes, which were winged beings known as avengers or persecuters.  They were known to hunt the wicked, those that broke oaths.  They were often intertwined with serpents, and were also associated with the night and moon.  He also possibly created the Telchines, a people associated with machinery and the raising of poseidon.  They eventually began to use dark magics, and for this the gods hunted them.  It was believed their darkness was defeated by Ares the God of War taking the shape of a Wolf Warrior to fight them.  Before that though they were an incredibly peaceful people.
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    Re: Linking Internal and External Lore: Norse, Arthurian, and Etymology in Dark Souls

    Post by Tolvo on Fri Jul 12, 2013 12:19 pm

    So let's talk the Murakumo, I can't remember if it has been discussed.


    So a little nod perhaps, previously From Software made another game, called Murakumo.


    Murakumo: Renegade Mech Assault  It also just happens that the Murakumo Mechs are red in color.


    Now then, onto a bit more myth associated.  Murakumo means Gathering Clouds.  There was a mythic sword in japan that is actually represented by a real one, an heirloom of the Imperial Regalia.  The  Ame-no-Murakumo-no-Tsurugi, this was it's original name before being rnamed the Kusanagi-no-Tsurugi.  Ame-no-Murakumo-noTsurugi means Sword of the Gathering Clouds of Heaven..  Kusanagi-no-Tsurugi means Grass Cutting Sword.  This weapon was gifted to Yamato Takero, a Japanese version of King Arthur essentially.  The weapon was capable of controlling wind, and could cut through grass easily.  It was a mythic heirloom, and was buried upon his death in a nearby shrine which was protected after his death.  He was cursed by a god during an adventure and died due to illness, not actual.  There is a noted slight similarity to Artorias, who is also based off of King Athur.  The sword was also found within a snake, and was pilfered and not forged.  Shiva is well known for taking items, such as his shield.  He was also a war leader, like Shiva.  He also was romantically involved with the japanese version of Gwynevere, King Athur's lover.  Specifically a lot of his work was done in the east of japan.  There is another possible reference to Demon's Souls.  The Large Sword of Searching, Old Hero, and Stormruler.  With the concept of gathering clouds it could be possibly related to the idea of a storm.  Old Hero, Stormruler, and the Large Sword of Searching(Wielded by Old Hero) were found high above near the peak of a mountain, by the way a mountain spirit cursed and killed Yamato where he was then buried at a nearby shrine, this mountain is close to the heavens and clouds.  Gathering Clouds can perhaps be a reference to this, in name and the fact that the Murakumo is similar in size to the Sword of Searching, as well the Sword of Searching is a very large Curved Sword, though in game there is no very large curved sword class.




    The main issue is that everything about this mythology is quite heroic, when Shiva is known to have a much darker side to him.  
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    Re: Linking Internal and External Lore: Norse, Arthurian, and Etymology in Dark Souls

    Post by Tolvo on Sun Jul 28, 2013 11:34 pm

    A very small little entry, many characters have names that are super rare and possibly made up, but in actuality may have roots.  Havel the Rock.  Havel is a Czech name, it means small or humble.  In Hebrew it also seems to mean breath, perhaps a little nod to his hatred of Dragons.  There was a famous man named Vaclav Havel, a playwright and president of Czechoslovakia.  He was well known for taking part in a revolution to end the Communist control of his country, though their protesting was peaceful.  He was seen as the protector of those without a voice, and a man that gave incredible power to those without it.  To give them the strength to protect themselves.  While commmunists became a part of his government still he stood against them openly and was constantly imprisoned for it.  After the revolution had ended he became a high ranking member of the government and eventually the president.  He continued his work until his death, having died a few months after the release of Dark Souls actually, december 15th.  Vaclav means Glory and More, or More Glory.  

    Now another one, Havel is a river in Germany.  It has four sections, with a fifth part being a mouth.  Nutrient rich soil is around it, and essentially it can be seen as having five segments in total.  So, it is a five parted delta.  Five segments that lead into a delta.  Also it is named after an old german word which means to harbor, and Havel was well known for Harboring a hatred.  A little draw towards the previous link with communism and the dragons, Havel is a link between East and West german and runs through Berlin.

    Likely these are just coincidences, but still I can't help but notice some of these things.
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    Re: Linking Internal and External Lore: Norse, Arthurian, and Etymology in Dark Souls

    Post by skarekrow13 on Mon Jul 29, 2013 12:50 am

    So Havel is a Delta Farmer from the Five Finger Delta? Awesome stuff Tolvo. I know someone brought up the president one before but the rest is all new to me

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    Re: Linking Internal and External Lore: Norse, Arthurian, and Etymology in Dark Souls

    Post by Tolvo on Tue Sep 03, 2013 12:36 am

    So why hasn't this been stickied yet? silly
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    Re: Linking Internal and External Lore: Norse, Arthurian, and Etymology in Dark Souls

    Post by WhatDoesThePendantDo? on Tue Sep 03, 2013 2:44 am

    So, Twitter tells me this thread is alive again...

    Is this so?raised brow 

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    skarekrow13
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    Re: Linking Internal and External Lore: Norse, Arthurian, and Etymology in Dark Souls

    Post by skarekrow13 on Tue Sep 03, 2013 2:56 am

    Again? It only goes dormant...never dead.

    Cue dramatic music and flickering light effect

    Duh dun dun!



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    Re: Linking Internal and External Lore: Norse, Arthurian, and Etymology in Dark Souls

    Post by Sponsored content


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