Linking Internal and External Lore: Norse, Arthurian, and Etymology in Dark Souls

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    Re: Linking Internal and External Lore: Norse, Arthurian, and Etymology in Dark Souls

    Post by skarekrow13 on Sat Mar 31, 2012 10:09 am

    Sen's is full of Nagas

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    Re: Linking Internal and External Lore: Norse, Arthurian, and Etymology in Dark Souls

    Post by WyrmHero on Sat Mar 31, 2012 1:25 pm

    I think that's what Seath is trying to do with the Maidens. It seems he's trying to do an army of Nagas, although they are failed experiments. The Duke's Archives is like the Tower of the Wizards in Heroes, with all sorts of knowledge about sorcery and the universe. Coincidence? I love that game by the way, specially Heroes of Might and Magic 3.


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    Re: Linking Internal and External Lore: Norse, Arthurian, and Etymology in Dark Souls

    Post by Tolvo on Mon Apr 02, 2012 9:23 am

    I just remembered and can't believe I forgot about this, there is a Planet in Star Wars called Artorias, exact same spelling. I don't think from would....But I have to be sure, I'll be checking what I can in regards to that.
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    Re: Linking Internal and External Lore: Norse, Arthurian, and Etymology in Dark Souls

    Post by Emergence on Mon Apr 02, 2012 11:41 pm

    I did notice Star Wars had a planet of the same name. From what I recall, I couldn't find a conection between the two but it is quite possible I overlooked something.


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    Re: Linking Internal and External Lore: Norse, Arthurian, and Etymology in Dark Souls

    Post by Tolvo on Mon Apr 02, 2012 11:47 pm

    Yeah I couldn't find anything of worth either, other than that they were known for having a king who cared for the people and fought a guerrilla war against the Vong when they invaded. Oh well, no stone left unturned eh?

    Wait a second...Artorias, forest, Guerilla warfar, invasion...There might be something to this, but I just can't for a moment believe anyone at From is that interested in Star Wars.

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    Re: Linking Internal and External Lore: Norse, Arthurian, and Etymology in Dark Souls

    Post by bla on Sat Apr 07, 2012 4:40 pm

    Going back a bit guys if you don't mind. I created a thread for it but since it was mentioned here...

    Wyrmhero said he believed Ariamis didn't create the painted world (by the way wyrmhero, I also love heroes of might and magic 3, still play it). I don't know about that one, since Priscilla specifically tells us he did created it.



    However I wanted to point this out: Ariamis is close to Aramis. I was trying to find something about the musketeer Aramis and ended up finding a mount called Aramis, which is snowy and isolated.



    As for the name I found this: "In fiction, the famous swordsman from Alexandre Dumas's "The Three Musketeers", notable for his ambition and religious aspirations."

    It could point to Gwyndolin apart from the "swordsman" thing.

    What does point to him, and bear with me because what I'm using here is rather weak is a cartoon series I vaguely remember from when I was a kid in which Aramis the musketeer was actually a lady disguised as a guy.



    But hey, since we're talking star wars already... happy



    Edit: I'm still in the process of reading this thread so I will reply to some more stuff afterwards. By the way I loved the explanation of the murasama / masamune. Had only a vague idea of the myth, not the hystorical context.
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    Re: Linking Internal and External Lore: Norse, Arthurian, and Etymology in Dark Souls

    Post by skarekrow13 on Sat Apr 07, 2012 4:46 pm

    Good stuff! That mountain sounds awfully familiar

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    Re: Linking Internal and External Lore: Norse, Arthurian, and Etymology in Dark Souls

    Post by Emergence on Sat Apr 07, 2012 6:30 pm

    Tolvo wrote:Yeah I couldn't find anything of worth either, other than that they were known for having a king who cared for the people and fought a guerrilla war against the Vong when they invaded. Oh well, no stone left unturned eh?

    Wait a second...Artorias, forest, Guerilla warfar, invasion...There might be something to this, but I just can't for a moment believe anyone at From is that interested in Star Wars.

    Everyone is interested in Star Wars.


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    Re: Linking Internal and External Lore: Norse, Arthurian, and Etymology in Dark Souls

    Post by SEANB240 on Fri Apr 13, 2012 4:03 am

    I think the hardest part about putting all this stuff together is the fact that once you delve into mythology enough, everything begins to blur a bit and one thing you think relates to xyz also correlates with something similar, if not identical to something before that era or from another region. Not to mention the blending of it all within Dark Souls.

    With that said, I think it is a no-brainer that the Sunbro covenant is a reference to the followers of Mithras. Mithra was an ancient God of sunlight within Zoroastrianism, whom Roman legionaries brought back to their country after serving on the frontier regions of the empire (think Persia region EDIT: possibly Armenia, Turkey or other areas with Zoroastrian communities, apparently). It quickly became a sort of God, or patron saint if you will, of the Roman military. Not only is this supported by the whole "Warriors of Sunlight" thing, but also the first sentence from the wiki page for "Mithra":

    Mithra is the Zoroastrian divinity of covenant and oath.

    Also, take a look at these special Sol Invictus ("Invincible Sun") coins (Sunlight Medals!) that were produced in Rome during these days:

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ef/Disc_Sol_BM_GR1899.12-1.2.jpg/220px-Disc_Sol_BM_GR1899.12-1.2.jpg

    See anything familiar? Not convinced? Here is a statue of it:

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1a/Sol_Invictus_staue_in_Milan_Archeology_Museum_IMG_4874_1.JPG/541px-Sol_Invictus_staue_in_Milan_Archeology_Museum_IMG_4874_1.JPG

    Its the Sunlight Maggot.

    EDIT: Couple more tidbits:

    Mithras was seen as the protector of just souls from demons seeking to drag them down to Hell, and the guide of these souls to Paradise

    Sunbros in a nutshell!

    Worship of the sun (Sol) did exist within the indigenous Roman pantheon, as a minor part, and always as a pairing with the moon. However, in the East, there were many solar deities, including the Greek Helios, who was largely displaced by Apollo. By the 3rd century, the popular cults of Apollo and Mithras had started to merge into the syncretic cult known as Sol Invictus, and in 274 CE the emperor Aurelian (whose mother had been a priestess of the sun) made worship of Sol Invictus official. Subsequently Aurelian built a splendid new temple in Rome, and created a new body of priests to support it (pontifex solis invicti), attributing his victories in the East to Sol Invictus.

    Interesting...but THIS is important:

    However, this period was also the beginning of the decline of Mithraism, as Dacia was lost to the empire, and invasions of the northern peoples resulted in the destruction of temples along a great stretch of frontier, the main stronghold of the cult

    Source for last two quotes: http://www.crystalinks.com/mithraism.html

    Could be an explanation for why the Sunlight Altar is destroyed. Maybe?

    So we have a military order of legionaries worshipping the Sun God of covenant and oath, of whom passing around Sol Invictus coins was a big thing. Warriors of Sunlight = Mithra followers.

    Also, speaking of Zoroastrianism, fire is a cornerstone of the religion (as of many others). One thing that, while not originally so, became a big thing in this religion were fire temples. People would, and still do, congregate around and worship these fires, including ceremonies where the uninitiated offer material to kindle said fires, thereby being purified. Here is a little coin of one:

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/24/Moneda_sapor_II_reverso.jpg

    And a weird painting of one:

    http://www.crystalinks.com/z2flame.jpg

    Obviously that guy just summoned a phantom happy




    I have more but I am tired. I hope this was a decent contribution and not old news by now.






    Last edited by SEANB240 on Fri Apr 13, 2012 4:21 am; edited 3 times in total (Reason for editing : new stuff)
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    Re: Linking Internal and External Lore: Norse, Arthurian, and Etymology in Dark Souls

    Post by WyrmHero on Fri Apr 13, 2012 5:36 am

    Great post, welcome to the forum.


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    Re: Linking Internal and External Lore: Norse, Arthurian, and Etymology in Dark Souls

    Post by skarekrow13 on Fri Apr 13, 2012 10:28 am

    Ummmmm......Amazing....Well done...well done and welcome

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    Re: Linking Internal and External Lore: Norse, Arthurian, and Etymology in Dark Souls

    Post by Emergence on Fri Apr 13, 2012 10:46 am

    Great contribution.


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    Re: Linking Internal and External Lore: Norse, Arthurian, and Etymology in Dark Souls

    Post by SEANB240 on Fri Apr 13, 2012 4:34 pm

    Thanks! I had more but I went into a slight coma last night and forgot everything.
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    Re: Linking Internal and External Lore: Norse, Arthurian, and Etymology in Dark Souls

    Post by SEANB240 on Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:26 am

    Today I found Le Mort D' Arthur by Sir Thomas Malory at B&N, haven't gotten too far into it, but if I see anything Lore related I'll keep you guys updated.
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    Re: Linking Internal and External Lore: Norse, Arthurian, and Etymology in Dark Souls

    Post by WyrmHero on Thu Apr 19, 2012 4:10 am

    @bla You are right, just checked Priscy's dialogue and she confirms it was Ariamis who created the Painted World. Silly me. Very good find, the because the Painted World is a snowy mount too.


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    Re: Linking Internal and External Lore: Norse, Arthurian, and Etymology in Dark Souls

    Post by skarekrow13 on Thu Apr 19, 2012 10:45 am

    Awexome stuff guys. I haven't stumbled across more lore I think connects (I kinda exhausted the well of "off the top of my head" stuff a long time ago) but glad there's still some stuff to find.

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    Re: Linking Internal and External Lore: Norse, Arthurian, and Etymology in Dark Souls

    Post by DoughGuy on Mon Jun 25, 2012 8:42 am

    n-n-n-n-n-n-necrobump. But seriously this belongs in this thread. possible norse connection to Havel. http://soulswiki.forumsrpg.com/t7371-that-awkward-moment-when-you-ralize#152413. Havel's leggings look like a goat. If I'm not mistaken Loki has ties to goats, often represented with goat's legs. Loki also fought for the gods before betraying them. Havel fought for the gods before he had an occult club nearby.
    So am I right about the goat thing? If so what of the connection.


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    Re: Linking Internal and External Lore: Norse, Arthurian, and Etymology in Dark Souls

    Post by Tolvo on Mon Jun 25, 2012 8:42 am

    I don't know, they always reminded me more of Horse Legs.
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    Re: Linking Internal and External Lore: Norse, Arthurian, and Etymology in Dark Souls

    Post by DoughGuy on Mon Jun 25, 2012 8:46 am

    I suppose the crest could be considered a mane ...


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    Re: Linking Internal and External Lore: Norse, Arthurian, and Etymology in Dark Souls

    Post by Tolvo on Mon Jun 25, 2012 8:49 am

    That's what I always figured, that and that in Chess the Knight is a horse.
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    Re: Linking Internal and External Lore: Norse, Arthurian, and Etymology in Dark Souls

    Post by skarekrow13 on Mon Jun 25, 2012 10:05 am

    If we're going animal resemblances the crest would be definitely consistent with horse mane replicas for helmets (except carved out of rock). The legs appear to simulate the lower half of an animal leg with goat and horse both being possible. However, I've looked at a pretty decent picture of the feet and don't see a heel like was referenced in the other thread. Instead, the front portion makes it look like he's standing on tiptoes but I'm pretty sure the entire foot is flat to the ground without a platform or heel. Getting back to animal resemblances Havel's feet don't look so much like this
    as much as they do this

    It looks like horse is more likely. Tolvo's chess reference might actually be genius and Havel could be a mish mash of chess pieces. He is a Bishop, a well known Knight and his armor is carved out of rock like a castle or, closer sounding, Rook. Bishop Havel, the Rook Knight perhaps? I've also been bothered a while wondering where I recalled seeing a similar helmet and it hit me finally reading these posts. First, here's
    Havel.

    This concept sketch shows it best but behold the living castle Alexander!


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    Sif and Artorias connection?

    Post by wartime-wonders on Fri Jun 29, 2012 6:35 am

    I genuinely believe that the DLC (or prepare to die edition) will shed alot of light on the relationship between the great wolf and Artorias. Imm thinking that Sif could, in some way, be related to Alvina and possibly the sanctuary guardian( the chimera), and, i really, really hope, we'll see Sif as a puppy happy
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    Re: Linking Internal and External Lore: Norse, Arthurian, and Etymology in Dark Souls

    Post by Fallen Angelus on Sat Jun 30, 2012 5:01 am

    The Rook piece in chess was also once refered to as a Marquess, which in turn is a type of noblemen normally found in western cultures. Marquesses in turn are known for ruling Marches which are on the borders of kingdoms. They essentially were charged with front-line defense, Fits for a man known to go into battle and destroy the enemies of his lord with his own two hands, hmm? Have to look into it but But I bet you there were also a few in history that were heavily involved in the church, since the reverse is true quite a few bishops had political holdings


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    Re: Linking Internal and External Lore: Norse, Arthurian, and Etymology in Dark Souls

    Post by Spurgun on Sat Jun 30, 2012 5:14 pm

    This may be a bit far fetched.

    When i thought of Seaths relationship to the gods is remembered Lokis relationship to the "gods" (from norse mytology).
    Loki swore allegiance with Odin, and became his bloodbrother. This was because Odin saw that he wouldn’t be able to win against the giants (Lokis people) without help, he needed Lokis magic. But Loki couldn’t always be trusted, he often did something bad (a god died thanks to him, etc). And after that Loki did something that redeemed him.
    To me this sounds like Seath.

    Loki also has a daughter, named Hel. Who is the ruler of a realm that is also called Hel. Some of the dead go to Hel, but only those who die of old age or disease. She is also making a ship out of the nails of the dead, which she will use to leave Hel.
    Lokis two "boys", a snake and a wolf. Fenrir, the wolf was taken by the gods, and they prisoned it when they saw it’s rapid growth. But one of the gods was friendly to it, Tyr fed it and they grew attached to each other. But the wolf escaped once, and the gods tried to capture it again. They captured it but Fenrir, ate Tyrs right arm.
    At first i thought That the wolf could be Sif, but Sif is a female and i don’t think that he’s Seaths child. Tyr could also be Artorias, but in the new vid we see that he still has his right arm.


    I am not really a lore person but i thought i could share my thoughts silly
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    Re: Linking Internal and External Lore: Norse, Arthurian, and Etymology in Dark Souls

    Post by DoughGuy on Sat Jun 30, 2012 8:30 pm

    Obviously Hel is Pris. I dont think Artorias or Sif would be the wolf. They dont have a connection to Seath. Good find though Spur.


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