Poise- yes, no and why?

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    Re: Poise- yes, no and why?

    Post by Soul of Stray Demon on Wed Aug 07, 2013 6:17 pm

    Main thing I dislike about poise is the breakpoints. Most weapon should have their own amount rather then just being in a class. Make the difference between 30 and 40 poise matter a little.

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    Re: Poise- yes, no and why?

    Post by Undiscovery on Wed Aug 07, 2013 6:28 pm

    Saturday-Saint wrote:There is a reason why, despite the superior level, enemy, and boss design of Dark Souls, Demon's Souls is still a more engaging PvE experience.  There is no poise, and the combat is much better for it.

    Yes!!

    Stagger use to be a trait belonging to strength builds with crushing weight weapons and it knocked you down with adequate Inv.Frames to get back up and into the fight. No need for Poise or any of the garbage that came with it. 

    I don't know what genius at From thought "Hey let's allow every twig swinging arse to stagger if diligent and then build a Poise system for them to race with!!" Duel


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    Re: Poise- yes, no and why?

    Post by Reaperfan on Wed Aug 07, 2013 6:51 pm

    Saturday-Saint wrote:If you care more about having viable heavy armor than having engaging combat, why not just play Skyrim?

    Because I don't like Skyrim's, or the Elder Scrolls series in general's, gameplay and mechanics winking

    I just want to avoid a situation like Demon's Souls where there were only 2 generally viable armor sets (Old King's for male characters and Binded for female characters). As we all know, in the Souls games mobility is generally more powerful than defense. Since raw defense as a stat is pretty negligible, wearing heavy armor in that game meant you were only forcing yourself into using more points on End than necessary, and burdening yourself with unnecessary stamina regen debuffs. Those two sets were the most powerful sets that didn't hinder stamina regen, and were both light, even in terms of medium armor so they required next to no Endurance investment allowing even low-endurance builds such as mages to use them effectively.

    Poise gave heavy armor a strategic reason to be worn, and made planning builds much more engaging than "bumrush to Miralda, be set on armor for the rest of the game."


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    Re: Poise- yes, no and why?

    Post by Serious_Much on Wed Aug 07, 2013 7:04 pm

    I want poise, but I'd like to have it reworked a tad. To be honest poise is the first on any game i've seen people have stagger resistance stat. It's a complete first shot, so obviously they won't get it perfectly right.

    Howveer, as others have touched upon- demons was crap for armour. When I play demons, I really enjoy it, but in terms of gameplay it's just plain inferior in a lot of situations. Two of the main factors of this is the redundancy of armour and the complete lack of poise.

    The fact of the matter is, in PvE, poise works perfectly well. It can work both for and against you in different situations and gives you a point to stack heavy armour. The only thing it is a bit bad in is PvP, but even then it does it's job better than 0 poise. Without poise str weapons would be even more useless than they are now, and the whole usage of poise to attack, BS, cast spells etc would be lost. However, despite the negatives in pvp, this is a PvE game series (many on this forum forget that a lot of the time), so to be honest for it's utility and merit in PvE alone it should at least stay if not be improved.

    Also sat, I dunno why you think dark's is better bu to be honest I think most people agree that level and boss design was much better on demons. They were actually a lot more creative and varying with their ideas. On dark the bosses are mostly slow and big, deal physical damage as main form of attack and levels are shorter.

    I can honestly say though that I played dark souls on a no poise run- I felt it detracted from the experience in all honesty, have tiny little things attacking you and causing you to stun for a second is a bit dumb to be honest.


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    Re: Poise- yes, no and why?

    Post by Reaperfan on Wed Aug 07, 2013 7:12 pm

    Serious_Much wrote:Also sat, I dunno why you think dark's is better bu to be honest I think most people agree that level and boss design was much better on demons. They were actually a lot more creative and varying with their ideas. On dark the bosses are mostly slow and big, deal physical damage as main form of attack and levels are shorter.

    I always said you can almost entirely describe 90% of the boss fights in Dark Souls as "big scary thing(s) trying to beat you up."

    In Demon's that could only be applied to maybe 50% of the bosses.


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    Re: Poise- yes, no and why?

    Post by Seignar on Wed Aug 07, 2013 7:14 pm

    Poise adds another depth to the game, but it was badly implemented by giving us the Wolf Ring, RoFaP and -keeping the concept of- Havel's Ring, then on top of that, badly adjusting the poise breakpoints, on top, of course, of ours truly, the backstab.

    Poise can be reworked, was Demon's combat more active due to stagger? Yes, but a game doesn't necessarily mean better just cause a player has to be more reactive/attentive, some people prefer the more "I-am-great-and-you-are-weak!" approach.

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    Re: Poise- yes, no and why?

    Post by Serious_Much on Wed Aug 07, 2013 7:18 pm

    Seignar wrote:
    Poise can be reworked, was Demon's combat more active due to stagger? Yes, but a game doesn't necessarily mean better just cause a player has to be more reactive/attentive, some people prefer the more "I-am-great-and-you-are-weak!" approach.

    Feeding off that is a very good point.

    Dark souls is brilliant in the way it is because every level and every boss has a different way to approach it. You can use so many tactics on bosses that all work well- some better than others. Poise expands upon that. It gives another option, and opens up another load of ways to use armour to your advantage. That's what souls is all about, and poise fits like a glove to the concept.


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    Re: Poise- yes, no and why?

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Thu Aug 08, 2013 11:23 am

    There is a reason why, despite the superior level, enemy, and boss design of Dark Souls, Demon's Souls is still a more engaging PvE experience. There is no poise, and the combat is much better for it.
    If one is to claim this reason, perhaps it would make sense to describe said reason in detail, not just claim its existence.

    I don't know what genius at From thought "Hey let's allow every twig swinging arse to stagger if diligent and then build a Poise system for them to race with!!"
    Poise race means someone screwed up, with no exceptions other than double-stagger (both hit and stagger at the same time).  Poise racing someone that will beat them in it based on build is the mark of a new player.  Poise racing someone who got the 1st hit and can take the same as you is a misplay.  It's not rocket science.  Poise has an impact on what you can and can't do.

    The issue with it is how easy it is to retain high poise and high mobility at the same time.  This doesn't necessarily mean the poise system is broken; it could easily mean that wolf/havel's rings are too strong.

    Since raw defense as a stat is pretty negligible, wearing heavy armor in that game meant you were only forcing yourself into using more points on End than necessary
    It doesn't HAVE to be true.  They *could* change the damage algorithm such that it *doesn't* result in diminishing returns for defense and increasing returns for AR.


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    Re: Poise- yes, no and why?

    Post by Undiscovery on Thu Aug 08, 2013 1:03 pm

    I mean the Poise Race in the big picture not individual battles. Demons I was able to focus more on my core build, everyone was, and I enjoyed it for that. Now it just seems like poise came out of left field with such an impactful role. It adds complication to the system more than depth. The relativity in battles should feel like we're two grand masters fighting not two ants. With Poise you're either too strong or too weak and it doesn't give much slack to middle ground, and the tactic is single-edged as opposed to double. Double-edged being similar to how high magic damage output means higher magic damage received. People can stack it and never have to feel guilty for it, and the game seems to glorify it. So maybe it's just as a DeS Vet it's an iffy addition for me.


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    Re: Poise- yes, no and why?

    Post by Reaperfan on Thu Aug 08, 2013 1:04 pm

    TheMeInTeam wrote:
    Since raw defense as a stat is pretty negligible, wearing heavy armor in that game meant you were only forcing yourself into using more points on End than necessary
    It doesn't HAVE to be true.  They *could* change the damage algorithm such that it *doesn't* result in diminishing returns for defense and increasing returns for AR.
    My point with that line was more based off of the previously stated "mobility is a greater form of defense than stats" in my post. When you get competent at these games, you don't even have to be great or experienced, after learning enemy and other weapon's movements you start dodging more than blocking or tanking. Even if raw defense was viable, it's still hard to argue that dodging an attack for 0 damage and better positioning is better than tanking an attack for 1 damage and no position change (the only argument I can see being that your current position is the best current position, but that's situational based on the fight itself and likely isn't the case for more than a few moments so shouldn't be considered when talking about general strategies).

    Basically, even with no poise in Demon's Souls and with poise being implemented in Dark Souls, nobody would be willing to make a fat rolling build without it being a self-imposing gimmick. Without drastic changes, defense in and of itself will always lose to mobility, purely on a strategic level. People cram as much defense into that <25% or <50% limit they have, sure. But they don't usually willingly want to go over <25% or <50% for more defense.

    And I don't really know what needs to be done to change this. It sounds like in DkS2 they're changing how rolls work, so maybe if mobility takes a massive hit from that then defense will matter more. But short of buffing defense to...say...something like Havel's Shield L2 special buff where you can deflect weapons even if they hit you (which is still something that would likely be tied to poise rather than defense, but it's just an example), defense is just a commodity. A secondary effect to the rest of your build.


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    Re: Poise- yes, no and why?

    Post by Undiscovery on Thu Aug 08, 2013 1:28 pm

    TheMeInTeam wrote: It's not rocket science.  Poise has an impact on what you can and can't do.

    The issue with it is how easy it is to retain high poise and high mobility at the same time.  This doesn't necessarily mean the poise system is broken; it could easily mean that wolf/havel's rings are too strong.
     I have to disagree. By definition Poise is a fortitude of balance and that doesn't go against having a high mobility if anything balance is key for keeping footing while flipping about. With everyone staggering and stunlocking, having the Wolf's ring and havels (As they are basically trade-off rings) is more than fair to me. Just because I want high mobility shouldn't mean I should be so easy to push around.


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    Re: Poise- yes, no and why?

    Post by Reaperfan on Thu Aug 08, 2013 1:34 pm

    Undiscovery wrote:
    TheMeInTeam wrote: It's not rocket science.  Poise has an impact on what you can and can't do.

    The issue with it is how easy it is to retain high poise and high mobility at the same time.  This doesn't necessarily mean the poise system is broken; it could easily mean that wolf/havel's rings are too strong.
     I have to disagree. By definition Poise is a fortitude of balance and that doesn't go against having a high mobility if anything balance is key for keeping footing while flipping about. With everyone staggering and stunlocking, having the Wolf's ring and havels (As they are basically trade-off rings) is more than fair to me. Just because I want high mobility shouldn't mean I should be so easy to push around.
    Interesting thought this post just gave me.  Dunno how, but it did.  Anyway...

    What if your equipment burden gave a multiplier to poise.  Go with what I said earlier about poise values being reduced to about ~50% of their current value across the board, but at <25% weight your poise was reduced a bit, at mid roll it was unaffected, and at fat roll it was increased.  Poise is possible at lower weights but has definite limits, and isn't as inherently strong as it is at higher weights.


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    Re: Poise- yes, no and why?

    Post by WhatDoesThePendantDo? on Thu Aug 08, 2013 1:36 pm

    Undiscovery wrote:Just because I want high mobility shouldn't mean I should be so easy to push around.
    I think that's exactly the issue some have, though.

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    Re: Poise- yes, no and why?

    Post by Undiscovery on Thu Aug 08, 2013 1:44 pm

    Well there'd be no issue if Poise wasn't around to begin with. Being heavy also wouldn't necessarily mean a fortitude of balance either as a good push would affect your center of gravity and easily topple you over. This is Steel to Iron and Bend to Breaking. You're either weaker and take hits or stronger and break. I don't feel poise is represented the right way at all.

    If at all a higher balance really should represent a higher maneuverability (maybe with a success rate?) as well as stagger-resist.

     Instead it is represented on how well you can stand still.

    EDIT: I stand corrected, though a synonym to balance, poise is actually specifically a balance without motion. My apologies.


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    Re: Poise- yes, no and why?

    Post by Serious_Much on Thu Aug 08, 2013 1:58 pm

    Undiscovery wrote:Just because I want high mobility shouldn't mean I should be so easy to push around.
    Actually, it means exactly that. The only way to balance heavy armour compared to light armour is poise. Defence difference isn't worth the extra weight and it's as simple as that. You sacrifice mobility to be a tank, or you're mobile and are more flimsy.

    Sure, it's not literal, but this is a fantasy game we're talking about- you can't say 'it's unrealistic as you'd fall over from centre of gravity loss etc. we have weapons that are five times our weight, dragons flying around, magic is a thing and the main character is a dead guy who can still run around and fight with rotting muscles that by all rights shouldn't work. If I'm completely honest, poise is probably pretty high up on the list of realistic things in dark souls


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    Re: Poise- yes, no and why?

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Thu Aug 08, 2013 2:04 pm

    Actually, it means exactly that. The only way to balance heavy armour compared to light armour is poise. Defence difference isn't worth the extra weight and it's as simple as that
    Like I said, this doesn't have to be true.  Imagine a scenario where with sufficient defense, you only take 10% damage compared to while not wearing said armor.  It's an extreme example and far from balance, but it should illustrate my point; if you could take 2-3 backstabs and still receive less damage than one hit onto an armor-less guy, the defense is suddenly not only relevant, but overpowered.

    From didn't go that route, instead making a nonsensical decision to give armor diminishing returns but not attack rating (and indeed, putting equal investment into stacking defense does functionally nothing against AR stacking in one attack category).  If you could fat roll in Dark Souls, but as a result only take 150 damage from a 2h zwei R1 at 40/40, well...you'd probably see a lot of fat roll builds.

    You COULD balance armor around defense only, but the poise mechanic does add some depth compared to "everybody gets stunned".
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    Re: Poise- yes, no and why?

    Post by Undiscovery on Thu Aug 08, 2013 2:12 pm

    Serious_Much wrote:Sure, it's not literal, but this is a fantasy game we're talking about- you can't say 'it's unrealistic as you'd fall over from centre of gravity loss etc. we have weapons that are five times our weight, dragons flying around, magic is a thing and the main character is a dead guy who can still run around and fight with rotting muscles that by all rights shouldn't work. If I'm completely honest, poise is probably pretty high up on the list of realistic things in dark souls
     Yeah you're right, if you reread my post you'll see I corrected myself. Poise is specifically a balance without motion, not simply a fortitude of balance

    Objectively, I understand we're in a metaphysical world, but if you're going to apply physical elements like poise and heavy/light rolls then there needs to be a clear definition on the physics parameters. 

    The DWGR mobility and fast roll mobility are really seperate stories as DWGR gives you further distance and speed with much less timing, so of course they don't really deserve to not stagger as they're hard enough to hit. 

    Alas though, I concede you the debate victory as even so jumping around would make it easier to throw off your balance and much harder to keep it.


    Last edited by Undiscovery on Thu Aug 08, 2013 3:47 pm; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: Poise- yes, no and why?

    Post by Undiscovery on Thu Aug 08, 2013 2:22 pm

    Serious_Much wrote:the main character is a dead guy who can still run around and fight with rotting muscles that by all rights shouldn't work. 
     
    Souls series angle is emphasis on the power of the souls influence on the physical. After absorbing the power of millions of souls, your rotting form would still be much stronger than a non-rotting human with only his own initial single soul. At least that's how I've interpreted it, with good reason I think. Not that this is even a relevant topic, Haha.


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    Re: Poise- yes, no and why?

    Post by passivefamiliar on Thu Aug 08, 2013 3:28 pm

    armor needs a complete revamp. but i honestly wish we'd never been given poise. then we wouldnt have this issue of how to make it work properly, because i dont think we can. its to easy to mix armor into a light build and get some poise. and the wolf ring...its a dead horse topic, but still. arg.

    i really think after thinking on it, to keep poise. it should be based off full sets of armor. if your just wearing the heavy gloves naked you shouldnt get poise from that. it should maybe even have a negative affect because you'd be weighted very awkwardly. but if your wearing the full set it would all fit into itself and be a forrmidable defense against weapons.


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    Re: Poise- yes, no and why?

    Post by Undiscovery on Thu Aug 08, 2013 3:52 pm

    Games like Diablo give you bonus affects when wearing multiple pieces of a set, I could see how Poise would work like this. There should be a stat that gives a natural poise, maybe mix it with Resistance and physical D and call it toughness, I stated that on another topic. It would make resistance useful to level up.


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    Re: Poise- yes, no and why?

    Post by Ishiotzin on Thu Aug 08, 2013 4:16 pm

    thats still almost the same thing, use different parts of the set to gain more "poise" its almost the same...and take the endurence out and make it resistence


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    Re: Poise- yes, no and why?

    Post by Undiscovery on Thu Aug 08, 2013 4:43 pm

    Yes but the catch is you have to be wearing more than one piece of the set to get the minimal bonus and all pieces for maximum. One piece would no longer give you such great poise. Or add combinations, different light/heavy mixes grant different bonuses.


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    Re: Poise- yes, no and why?

    Post by Myztyrio on Thu Aug 08, 2013 6:12 pm

    Just balance it out a bit more. Dark Souls poise was a prototype of sorts, it's clear that the armor pieces really don't make sense at points(seeing as there are some that become plain useless when watching the poise:weight ratio). I'd probably recommend removing the wolf ring as well. I wouldn't recommend a piece of equipment that is not armor give more than say, 20 poise, unless that piece of equipment also has a large downfall.


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    Re: Poise- yes, no and why?

    Post by Serious_Much on Thu Aug 08, 2013 6:19 pm

    Undiscovery wrote:
    Serious_Much wrote:the main character is a dead guy who can still run around and fight with rotting muscles that by all rights shouldn't work. 
     
    Souls series angle is emphasis on the power of the souls influence on the physical. After absorbing the power of millions of souls, your rotting form would still be much stronger than a non-rotting human with only his own initial single soul. At least that's how I've interpreted it, with good reason I think. Not that this is even a relevant topic, Haha.
    Let's talk about necrosed tissue shall we?

    The rotting (or necrosed) flesh is in the muscles.. Not only is it the wrong colour (most likely so we aren't utterly repulsed by it), but the fact that it even moves is biologically either astounding, or ridiculous.

    The tissue if done realistically will look like this (not safe for work, don't look if you're squeamish):

    Necrosed Tissue:

    The muscles have degraded so that either the nerve impulses would no longer reach the muscle tissue, or the muscles would be so degraded that movement would either be impossible, or insufficient to support natural movement. Needless to say, a hollow body wouldn't be stronger no matter how many souls made him stronger, as movement would be impossible anyway, if we're getting technical about this.

    Anyways, like I said, talking about things literally doesn't help in a fantasy type game. Being awkwardly weighted doesn't matter, it's the fact you are wearing heavy armour that is more difficult to damage and impact through.

    I'd like it to be more difficult to get poise without wearing armour sets. I like wolf ring, but it gives too much poise. In the same way poise is too easy to achieve with some low weight armour sets. To be honest it's just another example of FROM style balancing (or the lack of therein). Poise needs to be unavailable to minimal for lightweight builds to balance it.


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    Undiscovery
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    Join date : 2013-07-25
    Age : 27
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    Re: Poise- yes, no and why?

    Post by Undiscovery on Thu Aug 08, 2013 7:20 pm

    Sorry, I wasn't trying to split-hairs or get technical was just stating my thought on it, and was my explanation not following fantasy world guidelines you asked for; "The power of the soul does it!!" 

    Hollowing is obviously not the same phenomena as necrosis, I wouldn't expect it to be the same. I just picture it a lot like Raziel's form from Legacy of Kain/Soul Reaver. 

    But yeah DkS Poise is proto and I have faith all will be well in dos.


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    Re: Poise- yes, no and why?

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