Poise- yes, no and why?

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    Poise- yes, no and why?

    Post by Serious_Much on Wed Aug 07, 2013 8:44 am

    I see some saying they want poise refined, some saying it needs to be removed and everything inbetween.

    Whats your opinion and why?


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    Re: Poise- yes, no and why?

    Post by Tolvo on Wed Aug 07, 2013 8:59 am

    I'd probably not play DaS 2 much if poise gets removed, I quite like it since it gives more of a purpose to heavy armor compared to Demon's Souls in which armor is pretty much useless in my experiences.  People say, "Well armor is just a cosmetic choice in Demon's," it isn't.  Armor has a weight meaning I generally played naked in game, and my favorite looking set was the Brushwood set which made all of my character fat roll.  Without poise the fat roll had no justification, so I just played the game naked which was really silly.  

    I love poise, maybe some tweaks need to be made like heavy weapons giving a bit of poise and making armor that aren't so good their weight isn't enough of a detraction.  But without poise, I probably wouldn't play it much.

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    Re: Poise- yes, no and why?

    Post by Marino. on Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:11 am

    I played Demons Souls first, and Tolvo is absolutely right .

    There was no reason to have much Armor in Demons, the Damage output from both PVP and PVE is pretty high and Armor doesn't add that much Defence but much weight and you couldn't upgrade Armor in Demons, it was literally dead weight .


    Poise for PVE is fine as it is, you sacrifice Movement for being able to tank hits without being staggered, there are some downsides to it though .
    For example you know the spinning Attack from Sif and Artorias ?
    If you have no Poise you get hit once and fall on your a*s, however if you have enough Poise you don't fall and get hit twice .

    The One Problem i have with Poise is that in PVP it makes exploiting a particular move really easy, the Backstab . I'm pretty sure i don't have to explain that one .

    So, yeah they definately need to rework it .
    Maybe make it so that you get staggered less (preventing stunlocks) if you have Poise instead of not at all, because no matter how much Armor you have, you just can't just shrug a hit with a big a*s Axe of without even flinching a bit .
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    Re: Poise- yes, no and why?

    Post by Sentiel on Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:39 am

    If it was up to me (be glad it isn't), I would remove Wolf Ring and change the Poise numbers on several pieces of armor.

    I believe that this way, players who would want Poise, would have to sacrifice their speed. It would no longer be possible to have Fast Roll with 53 Poise. That in turn should make Mid Roll and Fat Roll tanks more viable.

    To this very day I don't understand why Hard Leather Armor and Painting Guardian Waistcloth have 0 Poise, while they have metal on them. Quite a lot of it.
    On the other hand Hollow Warrior and Soldier Waistclothes, Eastern Leggings and Gauntlets all have Poise, while they are just clothes, or tattered pieces of some undead's underwear.
    Makes no sense to me.

    Additionally, I would implement a set roll speed penalty based on the armor the character wears, while keeping the current Equip Burden system as well.

    Light Armor - 0 Poise - No penalty

    1 piece of Medium Armor - Can't use DWGR
    2 pieces of Medium Armor - Can't use DWGR
    3 Pieces of Medium Armor - Mid Roll
    Full set of Medium Armor - Mid Roll

    1 piece of Heavy Armor - Mid Roll
    2 pieces of Heavy Armor - Mid Roll
    3 Pieces of Heavy Armor - Fat Roll, can't use Hornet Ring
    Full set of Heavy Armor - Fat Roll, can't use Hornet Ring

    1 piece of Heavy Armor and 1 piece of Medium Armor - Mid Roll
    1 piece of Heavy Armor and 2 pieces of Medium Armor - Fat Roll, can't use Hornet Ring
    2 pieces of Heavy Armor and 1 piece of Medium Armor - Fat Roll, can't use Hornet Ring


    This should completely eliminate the possibility of having 53 and more Poise while keeping Fast Roll at the same time. The rest should limit the spamming of DWGR and Poise backstabs as well.

    I'm not sure how this would turn out (I made it on the spot) and there's bound to be a loop in there somewhere that can be exploited as well. but no matter how I think about it, it seems to be a much better system then the one we have now.

    Lastly, I would increase defences on armor, especially the heavy ones a bit. I think that 5%-15% (depends on the armor) should be enough. As it is now, the damage difference between full Giants and being naked isn't big enough to justify having to Fat Roll with the armor. However, I would made armor slightly weaker to Piercing Attacks, as it should be. Mail Breaker anyone? happy

    I'd like if Dark Souls 2 had something at least vaguely similar to this. I prefer Poise to the Demon's Souls no Poise PvP 100%, but the current system is kinda broken imho.
    So in the end, as long as From keeps Poise, but at least tweaks it around a bit, I will be happy. I'd really hate to return to Demon's Souls system and would probably leave PvP soon, because I never liked that a dagger can stagger me while I'm covered in heavy armor from head to toes.


    Last edited by Sentiel on Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:58 am; edited 2 times in total

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    Re: Poise- yes, no and why?

    Post by Emergence on Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:41 am

    I have wondered if having available actions change as the poise meter fills could help. For example, at a lower point, you can not take a step but can still swing your weapon, then at the full break is the full stun.


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    Re: Poise- yes, no and why?

    Post by Reaperfan on Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:43 am

    It needs refining, but it should stay. As much as I love Demon's Souls, it upset me that there were so few good armor sets, and poise at least fixed that problem with variety.

    If you ask me, just reduce all poise values by 33%-50% of what they are now (including the Wolf Ring or whatever DkS2 equivalent thereof). Poise should be something you have to focus your build around and shouldn't be something you can splash into a build. Heavily reducing values across the board makes it much harder for a build to use only one or two pieces of gear and be able to tank.


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    Re: Poise- yes, no and why?

    Post by AnCapaillMor on Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:54 am

    Reurned to demons after a long while, yeah poise is badly needed. Regardless of what they bring in, someone will find something to whinge about it or exploit it.


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    Re: Poise- yes, no and why?

    Post by Saturday-Saint on Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:12 am

    If you care more about having viable heavy armor than having engaging combat, why not just play Skyrim?


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    Re: Poise- yes, no and why?

    Post by crbngville2 on Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:23 am

    I personally prefer the way Demon's Souls was done. Way too many flaws in the current poise system. I'm not a programmer so I don't really see a way for From to fix what is basically a broken mechanic to begin with. The real question is do you want deal with a broken mechanic albeit an improved one, or revert back to a sytem that wasn't broken but provided less depth? Give me the latter.


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    Re: Poise- yes, no and why?

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:45 am

    The One Problem i have with Poise is that in PVP it makes exploiting a particular move really easy, the Backstab . I'm pretty sure i don't have to explain that one.

    Poise stabs at least require poising a hit to land the BS.  The trade favors the guy doing the BS, but compared to roll BS (where one sacrifices at least some poise or defense to fast roll generally) which doesn't require a hit at all and can be executed on most of the weapons in the game, it's a drop in the bucket.

    Edit: sent is right that the wolf ring is one of the bigger issues with high speed + poise.  Remove that and make high-poise gear heavy and you have a real tradeoff, not a fake one where it's trivial to reach 61 poise and fast roll.
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    Re: Poise- yes, no and why?

    Post by skarekrow13 on Wed Aug 07, 2013 11:11 am

    Here's the thing:

    Poise has 5 letters in it.  Wolf Ring (the physical manifestation of poise) has 4 and 4 letters for a total of 8.  

    5+4+4=13

    Judas Iscariot was the 13th part of Jesus' crew and look how that ended.  Incidentally, he was given 20 pieces of silver.

    20+13=33

    That's only one piece of the puzzle.  

    Now we all know that the wolf ring adds 40 poise.  

    That's the second piece of the puzzle.  

    Now the third piece is the picture of the wolf ring.  If you look closely you will notice it is howlin' at something.  



    Let's put the puzzle pieces together now.  
    Piece one is 33 OOOOOOOR.....3+3=6

    40 poise is actually 4+0=4 EXCEPT the "0" is one digit so it's really 4+1=5 BUT WAIT it also uses one ring slot so it's actually 4+1+1=6

    Now the last piece.....the world "howlin" has, you guessed it, 6 letters.  

    When you put it together it becomes 666, the mark of the beast.  

    It's obvious then that using poise actually speeds up the Son of Satan coming unto the Earth and that anything other than a naked fast rolling character is in reality us encouraging the end times.  


    For everyone's sake, no more poise.  Unless you like Hell on Earth of course.  



















    *This message brought to you by the Council of Extremely Sarcastic Skarekrows Who Are Actually Fine With the Poise Concept Despite There Being Room for Improvements.  Aka The "CESSWAAFPCDTBRI"

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    Re: Poise- yes, no and why?

    Post by Sentiel on Wed Aug 07, 2013 11:42 am

    Skarekrow are you trying to kill me? Your DeS thread isn't enough, but you insist on loling me to death even here? lol!

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    Re: Poise- yes, no and why?

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Wed Aug 07, 2013 12:18 pm

    For everyone's sake, no more poise.  Unless you like Hell on Earth of course.

    This is Dark Souls for crying out loud.  What do you THINK we're trying to accomplish?  I don't kill all those filthy sunbros and hosts to make duckies, horsies, rainbows, and butterflies.

    You have only encouraged the further usage of poise, and for that I tip my darkwraith hood to you.


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    Re: Poise- yes, no and why?

    Post by FinPeku on Wed Aug 07, 2013 12:25 pm

    Sometimes poise makes attacking too risky in PvP. Getting backstabbed after someone dashed through your attack is just lame and discourages active playstyle. I do like how poise gives you the ability to trade hits if you predict your opponent's attack. Feels good to smash katana running r1 with great club 2h r1. Although, same could be achieved with giving certain attacks hyper armor.

    In PvE poise works nicely and i can't really think of any flaws in it.

    I'm not sure how I would "fix" poise... But I think it's too easy to get high poise. Wolf ring, havel's ring, RoFaP, i'm looking at you. What if poise wouldn't stop you from getting staggered, but it would only shorten the time you are staggered? That way you couldn't tank through everything and keep running. Your actions would be interrupted. But it could still save you from stunlocks if you roll away or raise your shield. I don't know... Yes, no, maybe?


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    Re: Poise- yes, no and why?

    Post by IHateTheFourKings on Wed Aug 07, 2013 2:21 pm

    I've never really had a problem with poise, but that may be because I don't do PvP.

    However, I've thought of a way to make the wolf ring (or any equivalent) a bit more balanced: Rather than it giving a set number of poise, it could give more or less poise based on the total poise of the armor you're wearing. For example, you'd get 30 poise if you have none to begin with, 20 if you have, say, any pose 20 or lower, and 10 for anything above that. Does that make sense?


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    Re: Poise- yes, no and why?

    Post by WhatDoesThePendantDo? on Wed Aug 07, 2013 2:30 pm

    This just comes back to the fact that people who stack poise are na-hubes!!!...

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    Re: Poise- yes, no and why?

    Post by Seignar on Wed Aug 07, 2013 2:41 pm

    Poise should still exist. You can't seriously believe that armor was good in DeS? Armor would have to compensate with some extreme defenses, which that could cause many problems, such as godlike defenses where the players are practically immortal. Just because the system is currently broken doesn't mean it should be removed.

    Poise was bad because Backstabs were bad, that is all there is to it. Backstabs got the big nerf, as you must all be aware, to the point where it seems like Poise Backstabs are not god-tier anymore. What really needs to be fixed about Poise are the values. Getting the 76 breakpoint was too easy with the Wolf Ring and that was also slightly too low.

    First, poise needs to be harder to get. Poise of the medium armor must be lowered and the breakpoints for heavy weapons must be increased. This would make heavy weapons better and would weaken poise by not letting it tank through large weapons.

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    Re: Poise- yes, no and why?

    Post by Undiscovery on Wed Aug 07, 2013 3:39 pm

    No, no, no, a million times no.

    Demons armour wasn't perfectly implemented. But I find poise a useless element into character building because there are already enough elements to build on instead with better results. When it comes to literally being able to freeze your opponent and go off on them I don't support it. Demons had Crushing power instead, where it would knock you down and back and grant you the invincibility needed to get up again with hopes of dodging the next one.


    I agree, Poise makes sense, but needs a different angle, one I'm not sure of. Strength or Physical Defense (I.e. Toughness) should play a part in building poise.

    Just because I want to wear light Armour and move fast shouldn't automatically make my character a fragile warrior who's easy to push around and Poise should not depend solely upon armor to me. Oppositely just because I wear heavy armour for damage-reduction doesn't mean I deserve the ability to take a Dragon Tooth to the face and not stagger. Especially as warriors who absorb the power of countless souls, we could be equals in about every way, but that minute poise difference will make or break the fight.

    Armor could be more effective defensively without being OP, instead give certain Armour auxillary affects instead that make you less susceptible (but never impervious as Poise can often seem to do) to certain threats or attacks. Demons was funner for me because everyone had equal playing field in that aspect and there were enough fun character elements to worry about without having to also bother with my poise which is such a minute trait with huge ramifications.

    In Demons, your build seemed to matter a lot more, now you can have any build you want just get some poise with it and make it work. Bullcrap. 

    It just made combat more complicated to me mainly because of all the tags that came with it that were exploitable. Poise works on unrealistic opposite extremes. So NERF or NOTHING.


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    Re: Poise- yes, no and why?

    Post by passivefamiliar on Wed Aug 07, 2013 4:21 pm

    its a hard sell either way. no poise...plenty of issues. armor is much more an fashion choice than a useful one. although have defense was needed and did make a difference. the trade off for no rolling...its a fine balance to get right. but poise needs a big revamp. and im not sure just how...

    honestly. coming from having played demons souls first, i can live without poise. im not saying i want it removed. poise has become a bit of a crutch honestly, if you know you can take 2 hits before your staggered you can just try and out damage your target. not actually fight. it becomes a damage per hit fight.

    i do understand its need though, dont mistake my opinion for lack of being able to weigh pros/cons. i just think, considering demons souls initial success without it, the game wouldnt suffer if it was removed. any souls fan will still play it, and anyone who choose not to isnt much of a fan then really. any game, ever always without exception will have something that turns someone off from it. no game can be unflawed in someones eyes. 

    MY 2 CENTS to 'fix' poise.

    i expect it will have poise though, and i hope its not as easy to stack it onto light builds. maybe poise only works with full sets of armor? no wearing a ninja set with smoughs gauntlets and a giants helm to tank a single hit. etc etc. (dont critque my example i dont look into stats, just a general concept)


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    Re: Poise- yes, no and why?

    Post by Ishiotzin on Wed Aug 07, 2013 4:33 pm

    i think poise is a really cool add to the game because makes no sence to stagger a guy in full havels with 2 hits, and its cool to that a dex build (like me) have to change is tatics when figthing tank build, (like using a bow) and be more agreassive when figthing a no-poise sorcerer.
    but i agree that there are some sets that have just to many poise that nothing can stagger them(havels,smougth,giants e.t.c)


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    Re: Poise- yes, no and why?

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Wed Aug 07, 2013 4:51 pm

    if you know you can take 2 hits before your staggered you can just try and out damage your target. not actually fight. it becomes a damage per hit fight.

    No, it doesn't.  By having enough poise to take 2 hits when your opponent can't, they CAN'T make it a "damage per hit" fight because you'll stun them and murder them in DPS.  If your weapon + poise combo gives you the ability to win a poise race, your opponent CAN'T trade that number of hits or he dies.  I can't count the number of fools using "giant dad" or "buffed katana" who could take only 1 or 0 hits respectively against my 2h mace, who still tried to trade vs my high poise build.  That isn't a "damage per hit" fight, it's a poise race only one side can win.  Buffed katana has to hit and roll or it's screwed...while giantdad with his zwei is at a huge disadvantage since I can get 2 hits before him.  These things affect battle strategy, a lot.  However, a lot of players try to ignore it completely and just go rolling around trying to predict opponent rolls.  That's a valid approach, but it isn't the only approach.

    Things get a lot more interesting if both people are in the same poise break point per swing time tier of course, but to simplify it to the extent I've quoted is flagrantly silly.


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    Re: Poise- yes, no and why?

    Post by Undiscovery on Wed Aug 07, 2013 5:17 pm

    Call me bias, as I may very well be, but Demons Souls was OG. Poise wasn't needed because there was a great Crushing mechanic in play. That far outbalanced anything Poise could offer, if anything it's a heavily exploitable downgrade to me. Here they have a great base system of combat in Demons with many of the great core elements, then here comes Dark throwing a wrench in the gears with this 'all-important poise' stat I've never seen in Demons. Oh well, not that bigga-deal, just small stat thing. WRONG! Souls went from having great combat to being ALL ABOUT POISE. 

    It doesn't ruin anything for me, but just because Demons Armor was more aesthetic than useful doesn't justify a poise stat IMO, it only justifies room for better defense.. Obviously.  

    Poise was needless with a weapon system already having that element covered in crushing weight, If you want to stagger you need hella strength and a heavy weapon, makes plenty of sense to me. Now some may say "well poise is that defense against things like crushing." No it isn't, or else they would have kept crushing weight instead they let everyone and their mamma be able to stagger with the best of the strength builds, so in that view the Wolf Ring is more than fair as it allows my fast characters to not freeze up after you blow on him.


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    Re: Poise- yes, no and why?

    Post by Saturday-Saint on Wed Aug 07, 2013 5:59 pm

    A lot of people have this big misconception about poise. They think that the problem with poise is rooted in poisestab, or indeed that it lies solely within the realm of PvP. This is nonsense. The ways in which poise influences how weapon movesets and PvE encounters are designed are catastrophic.

    There is a reason why, despite the superior level, enemy, and boss design of Dark Souls, Demon's Souls is still a more engaging PvE experience. There is no poise, and the combat is much better for it.


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    Re: Poise- yes, no and why?

    Post by Lmaousine on Wed Aug 07, 2013 6:05 pm

    Remove Poise
    Re-add superarmor frames for certain weapon attacks
    Raise defense on heavier armors
    Keep armor upgrading
    Das2 is now a bit more balanced


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    Re: Poise- yes, no and why?

    Post by Aevun on Wed Aug 07, 2013 6:11 pm

    I haven't read through all of the posts here so pardon me if someone already suggested this.

    What if:

    The combined weight of your armour = your poise

    And no more armour pieces weighing 1.7 units that give you a whopping poise!


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