Poise- yes, no and why?

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    Re: Poise- yes, no and why?

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Sat Aug 17, 2013 6:40 pm

    BloodTempest wrote:Why not give those wearing light armor quicker recovery time so that they can't get stunlocked by claymore or zweihanders?
    That is the exact opposite of attempting to introduce more balance big grin.


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    Re: Poise- yes, no and why?

    Post by Soul of Stray Demon on Sat Aug 17, 2013 6:43 pm

    Ok, what about introducing deflection as a mechanic for pvp, It's crazy a tiny dagger can hit a greatshield in pvp, but a big greatsword can deflect in pve. So they could do armor deflection too, for the very very heavy armors.

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    Re: Poise- yes, no and why?

    Post by Sentiel on Sat Aug 17, 2013 6:52 pm

    Soul of Stray Demon wrote:Ok, what about introducing deflection as a mechanic for pvp, It's crazy a tiny dagger can hit a greatshield in pvp, but a big greatsword can deflect in pve. So they could do armor deflection too, for the very very heavy armors.
    Ok, imagine fighting against a spear turtle with shield deflection.

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    Re: Poise- yes, no and why?

    Post by Soul of Stray Demon on Sat Aug 17, 2013 6:54 pm

    That's what the heavy weapons are for, shield breakage.

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    Re: Poise- yes, no and why?

    Post by SirArchmage on Sat Aug 17, 2013 7:48 pm

    Soul of Stray Demon wrote:Ok, what about introducing deflection as a mechanic for pvp, It's crazy a tiny dagger can hit a greatshield in pvp, but a big greatsword can deflect in pve. So they could do armor deflection too, for the very very heavy armors.
    Every fight against someone that used Iron Flesh or the Havel Shield buff? That is pretty much the mechanic you are thinking of. And it really is just a plain stupid idea to melee attack people with those buffs on.


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    Re: Poise- yes, no and why?

    Post by Soul of Stray Demon on Sat Aug 17, 2013 7:50 pm

    I know that, but how many people use iron flesh and havel buff? It's obviously not that powerful the way it is now.

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    Re: Poise- yes, no and why?

    Post by Sentiel on Sat Aug 17, 2013 8:46 pm

    Soul of Stray Demon wrote:That's what the heavy weapons are for, shield breakage.
    Since when?
    People can block DGA 2H attacks even with small shields and won't get guard broken. Even if they do, these weapons are usually too slow to hit in the guard break animation anyway.
    Not to mention that if they bounce away from the shield in the first place, the guy behind the shield can poke them for extra damage and roll away. That way, your only choice would be spells, Shotel and Dead Angles. Thanks to rebound, you couldn't even spam them to inflict bleed, or Guard Break, because you would bounce off and got either poked, or backstabbed (yes, rebound animation is long enough to do a quick bs)

    As for armor rebound. Why do you think Iron Flesh makes you walk? It's because if you could move normally, you could just soak up a hit and backstab your opponent as he gets in the rebound animation. Since Havel's Greatshield buff works only on some attacks, you can try it out. I used it a lot with my Dragon build. Havel's buff, opponent rebounds, backstabbed. Looks horribly laggy, but works like a charm.

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    Re: Poise- yes, no and why?

    Post by Soul of Stray Demon on Sat Aug 17, 2013 8:55 pm

    I mean it as that's what the heavy weapons should be for.
    And in regards to the rebound, since that would involve adding in a big mechanic to the pvp game, I am hoping that some work on balancing would be included as well.

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    Re: Poise- yes, no and why?

    Post by Parsify on Sun Aug 18, 2013 9:33 pm

    In my personal view, poise is not a problem, the way a stunlock can be abused against low poise is.

    I would implement some kind of combo damage scaling, like we see in fighting games.

    For example, today, if you get hit by a heavy weapon and gets stunlocked and your opponent hits you 2 more times, he does 300% damage total, and sometimes this ends in a kill. In my suggestion, the second hit should do 50% base damage, and the third 25%. That way a stunlock would still benefit users of slow and heavy weapons, but the punishment would not be a total disaster.
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    Re: Poise- yes, no and why?

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Mon Aug 19, 2013 2:28 pm

    SirArchmage wrote:
    Soul of Stray Demon wrote:Ok, what about introducing deflection as a mechanic for pvp, It's crazy a tiny dagger can hit a greatshield in pvp, but a big greatsword can deflect in pve. So they could do armor deflection too, for the very very heavy armors.
    Every fight against someone that used Iron Flesh or the Havel Shield buff? That is pretty much the mechanic you are thinking of. And it really is just a plain stupid idea to melee attack people with those buffs on.
    A lot of weapons won't deflect off them when 2-handed.  The issue then is of course that you absolutely can't poise race them, either, but simply attacking them and then getting out isn't a horrible idea.


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    Re: Poise- yes, no and why?

    Post by SlintEastwood on Tue Aug 20, 2013 2:32 pm

    Parsify wrote:In my personal view, poise is not a problem, the way a stunlock can be abused against low poise is.

    I would implement some kind of combo damage scaling, like we see in fighting games.

    For example, today, if you get hit by a heavy weapon and gets stunlocked and your opponent hits you 2 more times, he does 300% damage total, and sometimes this ends in a kill. In my suggestion, the second hit should do 50% base damage, and the third 25%. That way a stunlock would still benefit users of slow and heavy weapons, but the punishment would not be a total disaster.
    I would just prefer for stunlocking to be removed almost if not just entirely. Just making heavier weapons a bit faster in comparison to the faster weapons and perhaps increasing the AR gap would be a better option for balance IMO.

    Also, I do think poise is a problem PvP wise, though from everything I've heard about DaS2 poise will entail bigger sacrifices so perhaps if it works the same way it won't be so bad...
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    Re: Poise- yes, no and why?

    Post by Undiscovery on Tue Aug 20, 2013 3:02 pm

    Poise is there for stunlocks to exist on their own without crushing weapons and create a defense against them however the ability to acquire poise and/or poise-breaking is all over the place in terms of balance and accessibility while stunlocks are statically effective. I like the idea of being able to earn a free hit but it should come with combat sacrifice, as in making it combat-centric instead of character-centric. Whatever they do I'm for making PvP feel as epic as boss fights (should) for every player.


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    Re: Poise- yes, no and why?

    Post by δelta on Thu Aug 22, 2013 3:13 am

    Saturday-Saint wrote:If you care more about having viable heavy armor than having engaging combat, why not just play Skyrim?
    STAHP

    @OP :

    There was no poise system in Demons' Souls, but the one introduced in Dark Souls is broken beyond measure. It's probably not going, since STR weapons and heavy armor seem to be getting new love in DkS2, but I'd prefer it to be removed, if only to reduce exploitation and tanking.


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    Re: Poise- yes, no and why?

    Post by homelessguy on Mon Sep 09, 2013 5:08 pm

    it not make sense to not have poise if you get hit by a great sword in robes you should stagger If u wearing heavy *** armour which made from a legendary stone slab that is unbreakable you should not stagger like someone wearing robes poise is a good thing and make light armour not op
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    Re: Poise- yes, no and why?

    Post by Wilkinson3424 on Mon Sep 09, 2013 7:03 pm

    Truth be told I don't think Poise should exist at all.

    I think that some weapons stunlock a certain amount of hits, and then you're free.


    I don't think that if I wore heavy armour, a zweihander wouldn't knock me over.

    That being said, I think that heavy armour should slow down your mobility but not by much

    I'm going to use the Taboo word here but in skyrim I like the system, where if you wear heavy armour, you're slower, and your endurance drains faster, but you have alot more defense.


    Poise doesn't really make sense to me, but yeah I like the system it does give heavy armour a purpose in a game like this. But I think that they should just redo the entire armour system.


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    Re: Poise- yes, no and why?

    Post by Wilkinson3424 on Mon Sep 09, 2013 7:06 pm

    homelessguy wrote: made from a legendary stone slab that is unbreakable

    I'm pretty sure the slabs are breakable.

    -Cough- Chunks, Shards, Large Chunks, -Cough-


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    Re: Poise- yes, no and why?

    Post by XuitusTheGreat on Sat Sep 28, 2013 8:25 pm

    it seems a fix that would satisfy everyone would be a fix such as a removal of the wolf ring or a ring that gave 20 poise instead, also full havels gives 76 poise (or the akin set in the new dks) the problem with poise was that you could quite literally get too much, 161 poise is a tad wow, but if a super heavy set would let u cap out poise at the break point for high weapons you would see a real trade off. In this case someone may decide that its better to roll through hard poise break weapons instead of try for tanking ability. Also back stabs in dks II do NOT have invicbility frames u DO take dmg while in the animation, so poise bs is a bad idea because when a red now invades a blue is free summoned (if in the right cov) and if a red tries to poise bs they would quite obviously die to the blue who gets free hits on them. Also base roll in the new game will be medium roll unless u increase a stat that will allow you to roll faster. there will be an higher price for fast movement. Quite honestly I think harder to obtain poise mixed with the new nude ppl dont fast roll would be a great change and variance in the game play that will be quite rich. Then again, I love STR weapons and the idea of swinging a zwei with no poise.....haha thats quite silly indeed (oh and in a game that pays such close details to its mechanics hyper body makes no sense "im swinging my sword now I cant be staggered" lol) I made a 76 poise fast roll Demon machete build once and honestly it shouldnt have been possible, to hit 76 poise I really should have needed to be wearing full heavy armor, not some gloves and boots and a ring.

    tl;dr- havel style armor gives 76 poise max , remove wolf ring


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    Re: Poise- yes, no and why?

    Post by Soul of Stray Demon on Sat Sep 28, 2013 8:36 pm

    Wilkinson3424 wrote:
    homelessguy wrote: made from a legendary stone slab that is unbreakable
    I'm pretty sure the slabs are breakable.

    -Cough- Chunks, Shards, Large Chunks, -Cough-
    Even more so, when you upgrade your weapon, you aren't just taping a big slab to your sword.

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    Re: Poise- yes, no and why?

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Mon Oct 07, 2013 2:07 pm

    δelta wrote:
    Saturday-Saint wrote:If you care more about having viable heavy armor than having engaging combat, why not just play Skyrim?
    STAHP

    @OP :

    There was no poise system in Demons' Souls, but the one introduced in Dark Souls is broken beyond measure. It's probably not going, since STR weapons and heavy armor seem to be getting new love in DkS2, but I'd prefer it to be removed, if only to reduce exploitation and tanking.
    The biggest exploitations in the game have very little to do with tanking. Poise stabs are about the only thing you could claim doesn't work properly, and that's a reach considering all the other BS methods.

    STR weapons and armor needed the love. They're undeniably weaker in this game than DEX setups or quality.


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    Re: Poise- yes, no and why?

    Post by Rynn on Mon Oct 07, 2013 6:45 pm

    Poise should not be a stat, but rather an effect.
    I do not care how much armor you're wearing, what causes people to flinch, scream, and groan, is not the act of being hit, but the pain. Clearly if I am injured, I will recoil, and if I'm not, I won't. The question then becomes more of breakpoints for what is and isn't "pain" to the player character. For my tabletop Dark Souls game, I'd concluded that I was going to use 12.5% of current HP as a hard and fast rule, and that certain abilities and capacities the players gained throughout the game would impact this ratio positively or negatively. Poise needs to be reworked but it's not as simple as changing a number I think.


    At the very least I don't want this "17, 31, 36, 53, 61, 77" ********. Why does EVERY curved sword do 31 poise? For a long time I refused to believe this was true because it was SO STUPID I couldn't believe it really was correct. I have still taken ages to come to terms with the fact that most dex weapons have a hard and fast rule of 31. Why not have breakpoints of 28-33 for katana's, or to some extent, a random + or - to poise damage done? Why THAT?!
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    Re: Poise- yes, no and why?

    Post by Zeta Prime on Mon Oct 07, 2013 7:33 pm

    Poise, in my opinion, was one of the much needed improvements from demons souls. I felt that poise gave armor an actual purpose. The problem is that it is easily abused by the use of the ring of great strength, the ring of favour and protection, and the wolf's ring. These three rings make it possible for a character to be very mobile while retaining enough poise to tank through hits. The problem is not with the poise itself but with how accessible it became. if equip burden rings and poise rings where taken away, heavier builds would have more of a niche and large amounts of poise would be unique to them. I think it create much more diversity in the gameplay to see people playing the strengths of armor rather then simply bypassing it because some rings can fully take it's place.


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    Re: Poise- yes, no and why?

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Tue Oct 08, 2013 1:47 pm

    Rynn wrote:Poise should not be a stat, but rather an effect.
    I do not care how much armor you're wearing, what causes people to flinch, scream, and groan, is not the act of being hit, but the pain. Clearly if I am injured, I will recoil, and if I'm not, I won't. The question then becomes more of breakpoints for what is and isn't "pain" to the player character. For my tabletop Dark Souls game, I'd concluded that I was going to use 12.5% of current HP as a hard and fast rule, and that certain abilities and capacities the players gained throughout the game would impact this ratio positively or negatively. Poise needs to be reworked but it's not as simple as changing a number I think.


    At the very least I don't want this "17, 31, 36, 53, 61, 77" ********. Why does EVERY curved sword do 31 poise? For a long time I refused to believe this was true because it was SO STUPID I couldn't believe it really was correct. I have still taken ages to come to terms with the fact that most dex weapons have a hard and fast rule of 31. Why not have breakpoints of 28-33 for katana's, or to some extent, a random + or - to poise damage done? Why THAT?!
    Break points in general are kind of silly. If you attached poise stun to the amount of damage received it would as much if not more sense; armor reduces damage and big hits cause more damage --> longer stun period.

    You wouldn't need break points at all then. It'd just be a %healthbar lost leading to duration of stun, possibly with items or some armor types adding a modifier (or for example strike having a higher modifier than piercing etc).


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    Re: Poise- yes, no and why?

    Post by Reaperfan on Tue Oct 08, 2013 8:47 pm

    [quote="TheMeInTeam"]
    Rynn wrote:Poise should not be a stat, but rather an effect.
    I do not care how much armor you're wearing, what causes people to flinch, scream, and groan, is not the act of being hit, but the pain. Clearly if I am injured, I will recoil, and if I'm not, I won't. The question then becomes more of breakpoints for what is and isn't "pain" to the player character. For my tabletop Dark Souls game, I'd concluded that I was going to use 12.5% of current HP as a hard and fast rule, and that certain abilities and capacities the players gained throughout the game would impact this ratio positively or negatively. Poise needs to be reworked but it's not as simple as changing a number I think.


    At the very least I don't want this "17, 31, 36, 53, 61, 77" ********. Why does EVERY curved sword do 31 poise? For a long time I refused to believe this was true because it was SO STUPID I couldn't believe it really was correct. I have still taken ages to come to terms with the fact that most dex weapons have a hard and fast rule of 31. Why not have breakpoints of 28-33 for katana's, or to some extent, a random + or - to poise damage done? Why THAT?!
    If I may ask, why is poise tied to pain? Simple physics plays a part as well, at least when it comes to very large weapons. Say your character is in full Havel's or Smough's or something equally fortress-like. Even if they couldn't feel the impact, something like a Great Club or Greataxe should still send them reeling due to the sheer amount of force with which one swing would connect. I've always thought it strange that Great weapons didn't universally come with "unpoisable" attacks. Even if not across the board (for obvious balance purposes), at least a good number of two-handed R2s should be untankable with weapons like those.


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    Re: Poise- yes, no and why?

    Post by Soul of Stray Demon on Tue Oct 08, 2013 9:00 pm

    Reaperfan wrote:
    TheMeInTeam wrote:
    Rynn wrote:Poise should not be a stat, but rather an effect.
    I do not care how much armor you're wearing, what causes people to flinch, scream, and groan, is not the act of being hit, but the pain. Clearly if I am injured, I will recoil, and if I'm not, I won't. The question then becomes more of breakpoints for what is and isn't "pain" to the player character. For my tabletop Dark Souls game, I'd concluded that I was going to use 12.5% of current HP as a hard and fast rule, and that certain abilities and capacities the players gained throughout the game would impact this ratio positively or negatively. Poise needs to be reworked but it's not as simple as changing a number I think.


    At the very least I don't want this "17, 31, 36, 53, 61, 77" ********. Why does EVERY curved sword do 31 poise? For a long time I refused to believe this was true because it was SO STUPID I couldn't believe it really was correct. I have still taken ages to come to terms with the fact that most dex weapons have a hard and fast rule of 31. Why not have breakpoints of 28-33 for katana's, or to some extent, a random + or - to poise damage done? Why THAT?!
    If I may ask, why is poise tied to pain?  Simple physics plays a part as well, at least when it comes to very large weapons.  Say your character is in full Havel's or Smough's or something equally fortress-like.  Even if they couldn't feel the impact, something like a Great Club or Greataxe should still send them reeling due to the sheer amount of force with which one swing would connect.  I've always thought it strange that Great weapons didn't universally come with "unpoisable" attacks.  Even if not across the board (for obvious balance purposes), at least a good number of two-handed R2s should be untankable with weapons like those.
    I always thought the reason you could poise through the heavy weapons, was by weight. That was my belief anyway, that it would hold you down, and keep you balanced.

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    Re: Poise- yes, no and why?

    Post by Rynn on Wed Oct 09, 2013 3:28 am

    Reaperfan wrote:
    TheMeInTeam wrote:
    Rynn wrote:Poise should not be a stat, but rather an effect.
    I do not care how much armor you're wearing, what causes people to flinch, scream, and groan, is not the act of being hit, but the pain. Clearly if I am injured, I will recoil, and if I'm not, I won't. The question then becomes more of breakpoints for what is and isn't "pain" to the player character. For my tabletop Dark Souls game, I'd concluded that I was going to use 12.5% of current HP as a hard and fast rule, and that certain abilities and capacities the players gained throughout the game would impact this ratio positively or negatively. Poise needs to be reworked but it's not as simple as changing a number I think.


    At the very least I don't want this "17, 31, 36, 53, 61, 77" ********. Why does EVERY curved sword do 31 poise? For a long time I refused to believe this was true because it was SO STUPID I couldn't believe it really was correct. I have still taken ages to come to terms with the fact that most dex weapons have a hard and fast rule of 31. Why not have breakpoints of 28-33 for katana's, or to some extent, a random + or - to poise damage done? Why THAT?!
    If I may ask, why is poise tied to pain?  Simple physics plays a part as well, at least when it comes to very large weapons.  Say your character is in full Havel's or Smough's or something equally fortress-like.  Even if they couldn't feel the impact, something like a Great Club or Greataxe should still send them reeling due to the sheer amount of force with which one swing would connect.  I've always thought it strange that Great weapons didn't universally come with "unpoisable" attacks.  Even if not across the board (for obvious balance purposes), at least a good number of two-handed R2s should be untankable with weapons like those.
    I also agree. Preferably certain attacks should never be poised simply by design. It's not as simple as just saying "12.5% HP", but 12.5% HP is a lot better than just a breakpoint*

    Of course in dark souls 12.5% is a drop in the bucket, so numbers need to be used responsibly.

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