Poise- yes, no and why?

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    Re: Poise- yes, no and why?

    Post by Ishiotzin on Mon Aug 12, 2013 8:31 am

    i like poise but for a dex build like me is hard to kill tanks just with a uchigatana because they can just swing their giant ultra sword and 2 shot me


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    Re: Poise- yes, no and why?

    Post by SadPanda on Mon Aug 12, 2013 9:59 am

    Ishiotzin wrote:i like poise but for a dex build like me is hard to kill tanks just with a uchigatana because they can just swing their giant ultra sword and 2 shot me
    Yeah, especially with plagues of using a dex build. Fast weapons, best rolling, and high critical attacks.


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    Re: Poise- yes, no and why?

    Post by Undiscovery on Mon Aug 12, 2013 12:35 pm

    Ishiotzin wrote:i like poise but for a dex build like me is hard to kill tanks just with a uchigatana because they can just swing their giant ultra sword and 2 shot me
     This is why I find the Wolf Ring fair. It gives you the ability to muscle through a single hit at-least, many times at-most, so the fights not over in a few seconds.

    They should just revamp the poise to make wolf ring obsolete not just remove the wolf ring all together. Or give us a Poise meter, hell they took away my magic-meter from DeS. angry


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    Re: Poise- yes, no and why?

    Post by BloodTempest on Thu Aug 15, 2013 12:19 pm

    I believe that poise should stay, but have it be determined by the total amount of weight that your character currently has instead of a poise rating on the armors.

    The wolf ring should have an x% bonus to whatever your poise is instead of having a flat 40 poise increase.
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    Re: Poise- yes, no and why?

    Post by Serious_Much on Thu Aug 15, 2013 12:26 pm

    BloodTempest wrote:I believe that poise should stay, but have it be determined by the total amount of weight that your character currently has instead of a poise rating on the armors.

    The wolf ring should have an x% bonus to whatever your poise is instead of having a flat 40 poise increase.
    that would be an idea, but then you'd be handing people poise for having a heavy weapon and light armour which would honestly be a stupid idea.

    I like the sound of that poise ring, though to be honest the wolf ring is probably meant for people with light armour to be able to have some poise. Dropping it maybe to 30 would be fairer in my opinion, otherwise it will be useless on any character who can't put poise on their build due to weight restrictions.


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    Re: Poise- yes, no and why?

    Post by Undiscovery on Thu Aug 15, 2013 12:45 pm

    I'm just saying, my Dextromancer shouldn't be getting staggered by mosquitos.. literally.

    You wouldn't have to add much poise rating to weapons because they're being swung around and that goes against what poise is, adding to your stationary balance. Obviously though weight and Poise should be tied by a greater extent and more creative way then they are now. Maybe even have poise boost when remaining stationary? Makes sense.

    Where's Smoughs Bear Ring, which offers bonus damage to poise? Wait, he never graduated Knight school, damn cannibal.


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    Re: Poise- yes, no and why?

    Post by Marino. on Thu Aug 15, 2013 12:49 pm

    Serious_Much wrote:

    Dropping it maybe to 30 would be fairer in my opinion, otherwise it will be useless on any character who can't put poise on their build due to weight restrictions.
    That's where i think most go wrong .

    The Souls games aren't about balanced PVP, it's mainly about the Single Player experience with the PVP being just a nice little addition .

    Just throwing that out there, nothing against you specifically, Serious .
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    Re: Poise- yes, no and why?

    Post by Undiscovery on Thu Aug 15, 2013 12:52 pm

    Marino. wrote:
    Serious_Much wrote:

    Dropping it maybe to 30 would be fairer in my opinion, otherwise it will be useless on any character who can't put poise on their build due to weight restrictions.
    That's where i think most go wrong .

    The Souls games aren't about balanced PVP, it's mainly about the Single Player experience with the PVP being just a nice little addition .

    Just throwing that out there, nothing against you specifically, Serious .
     I don't buy that at all. Their 'unique multiplayer' has always been a selling point for From Soft, and I find it equally important as invasions (even offline NPCs) can be a prominent element to the single player.


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    Re: Poise- yes, no and why?

    Post by Serious_Much on Thu Aug 15, 2013 12:55 pm

    Marino. wrote:
    Serious_Much wrote:

    Dropping it maybe to 30 would be fairer in my opinion, otherwise it will be useless on any character who can't put poise on their build due to weight restrictions.
    That's where i think most go wrong .

    The Souls games aren't about balanced PVP, it's mainly about the Single Player experience with the PVP being just a nice little addition .

    Just throwing that out there, nothing against you specifically, Serious .
    ......Usually I'm the guy who says that so don't worry about it silly

    Still though I fail to see where my post even hints at PvP confused 

    Fact is every build will want poise, and no matter if you're pvping or PvEing, not being able to get any poise at all off the ring due to your bad weight restrictions infringing on armour makes the ring kinda silly.

    Every ring can be used effectively on each applicable build. That's why pure stat boosting items like poison ring, defence rings or wolf ring offer static buffs


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    Re: Poise- yes, no and why?

    Post by Marino. on Thu Aug 15, 2013 1:00 pm

    Undiscovery wrote:
    Marino. wrote:
    Serious_Much wrote:

    Dropping it maybe to 30 would be fairer in my opinion, otherwise it will be useless on any character who can't put poise on their build due to weight restrictions.
    That's where i think most go wrong .

    The Souls games aren't about balanced PVP, it's mainly about the Single Player experience with the PVP being just a nice little addition .

    Just throwing that out there, nothing against you specifically, Serious .
     I don't buy that at all. Their 'unique multiplayer' has always been a selling point for From Soft, and I find it equally important as invasions (even offline NPCs) can be a prominent element to the single player.
    And i agree .

    I just say that it can't be balanced out perfectly for the PVP community and their builds .
    That's something they have to figure out to cope with, not From .
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    Re: Poise- yes, no and why?

    Post by skarekrow13 on Thu Aug 15, 2013 1:02 pm

    Maybe poise should be a stat mostly affected by another stat like endurance. That way, the correlation is that builds with high poise CAN wear the heavier armor but that it's a reflection of the individuals willpower and ability to take the hit. This would be akin to someone with better training or skill rather than "you weigh this much, so you of course can take x number of hits."



    I also see that someone downrepped my "poise is the devil" post. I would imagine that a stickler for Bible accuracy finally caught on that I credited Judas as receiving 20 silver instead of the full 30 cheers 

    If that's the downvote reason then applause to you! I would reply that 30 is inclusive of 20 and therefore it's still accurate however (plus I was tinkering with numbers to get the result I wanted anyway so why not only tell partial history)

    If that's not the reason for the downvote then:

    really trying to make these catch on:



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    Re: Poise- yes, no and why?

    Post by Marino. on Thu Aug 15, 2013 1:04 pm

    Serious_Much wrote:
    Marino. wrote:
    Serious_Much wrote:

    Dropping it maybe to 30 would be fairer in my opinion, otherwise it will be useless on any character who can't put poise on their build due to weight restrictions.
    That's where i think most go wrong .

    The Souls games aren't about balanced PVP, it's mainly about the Single Player experience with the PVP being just a nice little addition .

    Just throwing that out there, nothing against you specifically, Serious .
    ......Usually I'm the guy who says that so don't worry about it silly

    Still though I fail to see where my post even hints at PvP confused 
    That's why i said it wasn't against you, Serious .

    I just wanted to remind everyone who thinks that the Wolf Ring is OP for PVP that the PVP isn't the focus of the Souls Games that's why i think it can get away with unbalanced things .
    I agree with everything else you wrote .
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    Re: Poise- yes, no and why?

    Post by Undiscovery on Thu Aug 15, 2013 1:08 pm

    Yeah, can't please everyone. But like Serious said, it's a combat issue, whether PvP or PvE. It calls for some kind of tweak in my eyes. Someway.

    I don't find the wolf ring OP, if anything it's the only hint of balance poise has as far as lightweight builds go. Megaton-Weapon Poise-horders are just mad because they can't spam stunlocks like they love to do... They can, but at least I have a chance out with the Wolf Ring.


    Last edited by Undiscovery on Thu Aug 15, 2013 1:13 pm; edited 2 times in total


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    Re: Poise- yes, no and why?

    Post by Serious_Much on Thu Aug 15, 2013 1:08 pm

    Marino. wrote:
    Serious_Much wrote:
    Marino. wrote:
    Serious_Much wrote:

    Dropping it maybe to 30 would be fairer in my opinion, otherwise it will be useless on any character who can't put poise on their build due to weight restrictions.
    That's where i think most go wrong .

    The Souls games aren't about balanced PVP, it's mainly about the Single Player experience with the PVP being just a nice little addition .

    Just throwing that out there, nothing against you specifically, Serious .
    ......Usually I'm the guy who says that so don't worry about it silly

    Still though I fail to see where my post even hints at PvP confused 
    That's why i said it wasn't against you, Serious .

    I just wanted to remind everyone who thinks that the Wolf Ring is OP for PVP that the PVP isn't the focus of the Souls Games that's why i think it can get away with unbalanced things .
    I agree with everything else you wrote .
    yayy Dance :Beer: 


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    Re: Poise- yes, no and why?

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Thu Aug 15, 2013 4:18 pm

    Undiscovery wrote:Yeah, can't please everyone. But like Serious said, it's a combat issue, whether PvP or PvE. It calls for some kind of tweak in my eyes. Someway.

    I don't find the wolf ring OP, if anything it's the only hint of balance poise has as far as lightweight builds go. Megaton-Weapon Poise-horders are just mad because they can't spam stunlocks like they love to do... They can, but at least I have a chance out with the Wolf Ring.
    ?  The whole point of dex builds is to avoid hits from slower weapons and work the opponent down.  Ignoring that and using a weapon that is faster with barely any less AR than all but weapons that *can't* possibly stunlock is a large advantage.

    There's a reason fast weapons are more common in PvP.  It's because they're better.  I am interested in how you can actually justify making fast weapons even stronger relative to the poise-breakers.  The uchi already hits as hard as a mace with higher range and bleed build-up...but now that wolf ring is only "fair" because you should after all be able to trade hits with a shorter ranged weapon and equal damage and still always get away without exception, while also frequently avoiding damage due to the mobility?

    Not buying it.  Poise was a great addition in Dark Souls.  It could be made better if it were harder to attain it, and the wolf ring is, in fact, the easiest way to get it high without big weight investment (havel's tends to win for pure defense, which was pointlessly gimped compared to AR in Dark Souls).


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    Re: Poise- yes, no and why?

    Post by SirArchmage on Thu Aug 15, 2013 5:23 pm

    TheMeInTeam wrote:
    Undiscovery wrote:Yeah, can't please everyone. But like Serious said, it's a combat issue, whether PvP or PvE. It calls for some kind of tweak in my eyes. Someway.

    I don't find the wolf ring OP, if anything it's the only hint of balance poise has as far as lightweight builds go. Megaton-Weapon Poise-horders are just mad because they can't spam stunlocks like they love to do... They can, but at least I have a chance out with the Wolf Ring.
    ?  The whole point of dex builds is to avoid hits from slower weapons and work the opponent down.  Ignoring that and using a weapon that is faster with barely any less AR than all but weapons that *can't* possibly stunlock is a large advantage.

    There's a reason fast weapons are more common in PvP.  It's because they're better.  I am interested in how you can actually justify making fast weapons even stronger relative to the poise-breakers.  The uchi already hits as hard as a mace with higher range and bleed build-up...but now that wolf ring is only "fair" because you should after all be able to trade hits with a shorter ranged weapon and equal damage and still always get away without exception, while also frequently avoiding damage due to the mobility?

    Not buying it.  Poise was a great addition in Dark Souls.  It could be made better if it were harder to attain it, and the wolf ring is, in fact, the easiest way to get it high without big weight investment (havel's tends to win for pure defense, which was pointlessly gimped compared to AR in Dark Souls).
    Stop making me waste all my +1's on you, god damn.


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    Re: Poise- yes, no and why?

    Post by Reaperfan on Thu Aug 15, 2013 5:27 pm

    Undiscovery wrote:I don't buy that at all. Their 'unique multiplayer' has always been a selling point for From Soft, and I find it equally important as invasions (even offline NPCs) can be a prominent element to the single player.
    Their online system wasn't designed for any kind of competitive scene though. Random invasions while PvE'ing are much different than dedicated PvP.


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    Re: Poise- yes, no and why?

    Post by WhatDoesThePendantDo? on Thu Aug 15, 2013 5:33 pm

    Marino. wrote:
    Serious_Much wrote:

    Dropping it maybe to 30 would be fairer in my opinion, otherwise it will be useless on any character who can't put poise on their build due to weight restrictions.
    That's where i think most go wrong .

    The Souls games aren't about balanced PVP, it's mainly about the Single Player experience with the PVP being just a nice little addition .

    Just throwing that out there, nothing against you specifically, Serious .
    To be fair, it appears the dev team is going to be giving the PvP scene some special attention this time around unlike they've done in the past. They've had their eyes opened to the fact that it is PvP that keeps their games alive years after release.

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    Re: Poise- yes, no and why?

    Post by Undiscovery on Thu Aug 15, 2013 9:05 pm

    TheMeInTeam wrote:
    Undiscovery wrote:Yeah, can't please everyone. But like Serious said, it's a combat issue, whether PvP or PvE. It calls for some kind of tweak in my eyes. Someway.

    I don't find the wolf ring OP, if anything it's the only hint of balance poise has as far as lightweight builds go. Megaton-Weapon Poise-horders are just mad because they can't spam stunlocks like they love to do... They can, but at least I have a chance out with the Wolf Ring.
    ?  The whole point of dex builds is to avoid hits from slower weapons and work the opponent down.  Ignoring that and using a weapon that is faster with barely any less AR than all but weapons that *can't* possibly stunlock is a large advantage.

    There's a reason fast weapons are more common in PvP.  It's because they're better.  I am interested in how you can actually justify making fast weapons even stronger relative to the poise-breakers.  The uchi already hits as hard as a mace with higher range and bleed build-up...but now that wolf ring is only "fair" because you should after all be able to trade hits with a shorter ranged weapon and equal damage and still always get away without exception, while also frequently avoiding damage due to the mobility?

    Not buying it.  Poise was a great addition in Dark Souls.  It could be made better if it were harder to attain it, and the wolf ring is, in fact, the easiest way to get it high without big weight investment (havel's tends to win for pure defense, which was pointlessly gimped compared to AR in Dark Souls).
     You're awesome Meln, I always tend to agree with you but you just warped my arguement. I never stated nor do I want want stronger dex weapons or to be able to get away without exception. And no, a katana realistically shouldn't stunlock. I'm not asking for power here. Megaton users may be more easily dodged (dependent on location or situation) But most stack for 1-shots or 3 if i'm lucky. I don't BS often so may be it's my own fault for not exploiting a slowmans weakness. But they can clip you once by any chance or lag, stun you up and finish you. 0 Poise almost makes you fall over with the wind, and that is not balance.

    Furthermore I'd hardly call the min-stunlock weapons slow. I've played both sides of the poise field and they're not as fast as katanas and daggers obviously, but with 0 poise against a claymore-build (or similar weapon) can effectively keep up and they can effectively freeze your toon while they just hack away with no real effort at all. And I have to waste a ring slot just to tank through an often single poise hit and not trip everywhere. If you don't find that true, then I'm not sure what Dark Souls you're playing or if you're just that great at pvp. Buuutt if that's the way it's gonna be and continue to be, all-well I guess. The current Poise system is still far from a game-breaker but also far from perfect IMO.


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    Re: Poise- yes, no and why?

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Fri Aug 16, 2013 3:16 pm

    You're awesome Meln, I always tend to agree with you but you just warped my arguement. I never stated nor do I want want stronger dex weapons or to be able to get away without exception. And no, a katana realistically shouldn't stunlock. I'm not asking for power here. Megaton users may be more easily dodged (dependent on location or situation) But most stack for 1-shots or 3 if i'm lucky. I don't BS often so may be it's my own fault for not exploiting a slowmans weakness. But they can clip you once by any chance or lag, stun you up and finish you. 0 Poise almost makes you fall over with the wind, and that is not balance.
    I wasn't trying to warp your argument, but rather point out what happens as a result of an equalizing factor such as the wolf ring.

    There are very few weapons in this game that can't kill in 3-6 hits when used with 40 in a scaling stat, especially when you add a buff.  The point of dex weapons is to be able to hit bigger ones and avoid damage.  STR weapons *should* be a threat to stunlock and kill almost instantly, as their nature requires it to match what, say, a guy poking with a shield or rapier can do to them.  Indeed, for all the poise-break something like a zwei can do and threaten stunlock death, a simple turtle poke hoses that weapon bigtime unless the zwei player uses a glitch.

    Alternatively, str weapons could simply be made faster or longer such that they can actually match the damage output of the dex weapons somewhat, with the only significant difference being move sets.

    Even if we remove the potential for buffs (which favor dex, heavily), and just compare ARs, only the very largest and slowest str weapons can keep up with the AR of a much faster and usually longer dex weapon.  Great hammers, axes, most if not all great axes, DGM...none of those things can stunlock or stun-BS anyway.  Things that CAN get a few stuns in for a combo (small hammers) have very short reach, are slower, and to the same damage/hit has a comparable dex weapon.

    The biggest stunlock offenders are typically quality weapons, with zwei/greatsword leading the charge as the only two in that category that can do it.  STR weapons aren't really the one-shot you're alluding to, especially not if one is willing to simply block, as very few of them can dead angle unless you circle-fish them.


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    Re: Poise- yes, no and why?

    Post by Undiscovery on Fri Aug 16, 2013 6:58 pm

    Yeah I get that. Looking at what Poise is objectively here's what I'd do if it were up to me.

    While mobile, poise is reduced or relatively when stationary it be boosted (One or the other its essentially the same thing.) Make it reverse-scale with movement speeds as they already seem to be scaling the rolls with weight anyway in Dks2.

    Heavy weight weapons should naturally offer high Poise-damage, while heavy armor offers poise itself. Heavy weapons already stagger the user when they don't land (well polearms anyway) so not much tweaking there.

    When it comes to weapons that are closer to the balance or perhaps on the faster side can be granted poise-break through combo hits only. After all that is the point of a fast build to offer quick successive blows. 

    My only point is that Poise just shouldn't so dominating of a feature. I don't want to see stunlocks all-the-time happening like dark souls or most none the time happening like in demons. A happy medium where being able to freeze someone up is a combat-reward, and not a privilege. This turns it into a combat element more than a character one.

    Just an example would be blade collisions you see in real live swordplay. Like when our ~blades(as in closely powered) hit we both stagger. I'd like to see power-standoffs in this fashion. It'd enhance the feel of epicry. Win the stand off, get some stagger. Instead of it being such a dominating-easy-to-manipulate-element, the ability to freeze for free damage should be given with effort not because I'm a stacker. And if they're going to offer poise through 'willpower'-items (How the wolf ring explains itself to work.) then it needs to be stat related as well. Not just 'this item gives you willpower, apparently the only way to attain it, gfy!!'

    I don't believe paperthin clothing should give poise however a lot of the midweight gear doesn't offer mid-advantage poise. Its the gap between those with poise and those without that creates the inbalance that bothers me. I just want the faster-paced-combat of the epic variety, instead of the risque-poise-system currently inplay. Poise should be in the mix but it shouldn't be the only thing I'm tasting. Now, I'll rest my case. Prostration


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    Re: Poise- yes, no and why?

    Post by Soul of Stray Demon on Fri Aug 16, 2013 7:07 pm

    So basically the problem right now isn't poise, but balancing between dex, quality, and str weapons?

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    Re: Poise- yes, no and why?

    Post by Undiscovery on Fri Aug 16, 2013 10:48 pm

    May be, as well as armor. But it's all relative, you can change everything else to match poise or you can change poise to match everything else, but 'everything else' leaves something to be desired as well as poise so it's a paradigm shift. But we already know there's going to be a lot of new features/tweaks/whathaveyou all for the sake of enhanced play I'm sure. Or I hope I should say.


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    Re: Poise- yes, no and why?

    Post by BloodTempest on Sat Aug 17, 2013 11:03 am

    Why not give those wearing light armor quicker recovery time so that they can't get stunlocked by claymore or zweihanders?
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    Re: Poise- yes, no and why?

    Post by Undiscovery on Sat Aug 17, 2013 12:26 pm

    May be there could be different stagger/stunlock durations respectively to all the variables. Or a poise recovery rate?


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    Re: Poise- yes, no and why?

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