Your opinion on exploits such as Dead angling or Lag abuse?

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    Should Exploits be in the game?

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    Re: Your opinion on exploits such as Dead angling or Lag abuse?

    Post by Wilkinson3424 on Fri Jul 26, 2013 2:24 am

    I hope it fixes it, these glitches are unrealistic in fights, hitting someone while looking sideways will not make their shield useless. From wouldn't leave dead angling in the game on purpose if they put a weapon specifically designed to get through shields in the game.


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    Re: Your opinion on exploits such as Dead angling or Lag abuse?

    Post by hey its andres on Fri Jul 26, 2013 3:23 am

    I think dead angling should just be for specific for certain weapons, maybe scythes and shotels? It doesn't make sense to dead angle a giant great sword.


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    Re: Your opinion on exploits such as Dead angling or Lag abuse?

    Post by Acarnatia on Fri Jul 26, 2013 9:21 am

    Forum, by that same logic, all archeologists are presumptuous or illogical. Archeology is an entire field of science dedicated to understanding people by the works the yleft behind, frequently without their own words. Add in people who study art and it's history, psychologists and sociologists,,along with varous analysts in a plethora of fields, and you just stated that a much larger group of people than gamers are 'presumptuous or illogical' without even knowing them yourself, meaning you yourself just came to a conclusion about at least millions of people by the same method that you just called presumptuous. I invite you to look at that.

    I think a fairly good example of the basic idea of what From intended for (minus spells and elemental weapons) pvp is shown by npc fights in the game, and fights with npc invaders such as Kirk, Mildred, and Jeremiah. While, certainly, these do not reflect the wealth of weapons and spells and armor and rings available to players, it reflects the mechanics intended.


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    Re: Your opinion on exploits such as Dead angling or Lag abuse?

    Post by Serious_Much on Fri Jul 26, 2013 9:31 am

    I thing dead angles would be fine as long as they make the area that is blocked larger. As they are now they aren't in my opinion intentional, just a combo of lag and sub-par blocking mechanics for pvp and right now dead angles can be visibly going through someone's shield- that's unacceptable in my opinion.

    Toggle escape however has no place in pvp. It's an indefensible exploit really that means you can abuse a lack of poise for surprise BS or to make stun lock weapons irrelevant. In my opinion they should take it out and make the 2nd hit of a stunlock or a certain poise threshold a knock down so that stunlock doesn't = death. That would make more sense to me.


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    Re: Your opinion on exploits such as Dead angling or Lag abuse?

    Post by RANT on Fri Jul 26, 2013 10:10 am

    the only things that really piss me off i dead angle wog/roar or any magic, it just makes non sense that it goes right through a shield, like forum said you can turn around and block it but when you do that it pushes you back and youre giving them the perfect chance for a bs since youre getting pushed towards your enemy.


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    Re: Your opinion on exploits such as Dead angling or Lag abuse?

    Post by Jansports on Fri Jul 26, 2013 10:29 am

    Dead angle spells makes as much sense as dead angled falchion swings. Why do dead angled spells specifically seem worse to you than a weapon dead angling?
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    Re: Your opinion on exploits such as Dead angling or Lag abuse?

    Post by RANT on Fri Jul 26, 2013 10:31 am

    because you back backpedal and not get dead angled by a weapon, and you cant do that with spells.


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    Re: Your opinion on exploits such as Dead angling or Lag abuse?

    Post by Jansports on Fri Jul 26, 2013 10:49 am

    Of course you can backpedal out of range of a weapons dead angle, you can also strafe out of the way, unlock and run out of the way, roll out of the way, flip out of the way. Moving to a spot where the weapon will not(can not) hit you is an excellent means to avoiding a dead angled attack from a weapon.

    I've also not personally experienced these spells that are impossible to get out of the way of. Normally when I cast WoG it has a limited range, and even if I turn around and expose my back to my opponent it's range is quite limited. Longer than some weapons true, but hardly impossible to move out of the wat of.
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    Re: Your opinion on exploits such as Dead angling or Lag abuse?

    Post by sparkly-twinkly-lizard on Fri Jul 26, 2013 10:55 am

    DA wog I actually know the fatroll timing for, not really an issue for me anymore, my gripe is dead angle soul masses and dead angle mlgs blasts, I've had mages fire the sword blast right at my havels gs and completely ignore it simply because they turned around at some point while tossing the attack, and the DA soul masses just go right through your shield too just because the mage was spinning in circles...


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    Re: Your opinion on exploits such as Dead angling or Lag abuse?

    Post by hey its andres on Fri Jul 26, 2013 12:53 pm

    Spells, as they are now, should not have any dead angle to them. They do plenty of damage and have the capability to do a good amount of damage through a shield.


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    Re: Your opinion on exploits such as Dead angling or Lag abuse?

    Post by Serious_Much on Fri Jul 26, 2013 1:09 pm

    I don't understand this no dead angle policy of spells some people have here.

    Why shouldn't a spell dead angle? Surely it makes more sense for a spell that has no physical power to go round or through a shield? Are you guys even saying that if someone holds the block button and they get hit with a spell no matter where or what angle from it's not a dead angle and is blocked?

     I don't get it. The definition of a dead angle (at least as they should be) is an attack that cannot be blocked due to it being from an angle that cannot be guarded using their shield- i.e a dead angle. Why would one attack not be allowed to do that while another is?

    It's the same concept as the field of vision. If something is thrown at me from my blind spot, doesn't matter what is thrown at me, i wouldn't be able to see or avoid it.. at least intentionally


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    Re: Your opinion on exploits such as Dead angling or Lag abuse?

    Post by Animaaal on Fri Jul 26, 2013 1:20 pm

    The biggest problem I have with dead angling WoG is the lack of precision it requires.

    Compare the DA hitbox of WoG and the Broadsword.  You hit me with a Broadsword DA, good for you, I deserve it.  You hit me with a WoG DA.....good for you?

    I've hardly ever used a great shield or a mid-roller.  However, I don't think you necessarily need to have one of those builds to understand their plight.

    Also, I for one feel if I'm going to sit down and play for 3-4 hours, I can deal with duels going from 30-60 seconds to 90-180 seconds.  Most duels are relatively quick anyway.

    I just think dead angles as a whole do not add depth, but only add complexity to the current meta. I think the removal of dead angles would expand the meta and the build possibilities inside that meta.

    I also do not think dead angles ruin the game at all.  I've made 3 toons in the past month or so with 6-9 poise and fast rolling while using the Darkhand and DWGR.  Dead  Angles do not affect me in a drastic fashion at all.  I do however, see how they could ruin the experience of someone making a tank build.  Tank builds do not have enough defense and hp to compensate for dead angles, which is why they are not as viable in a competitive sense....amongst a couple  other issues...Backstab
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    Re: Your opinion on exploits such as Dead angling or Lag abuse?

    Post by Jansports on Fri Jul 26, 2013 1:28 pm

    There are too many problems with Fat/mid rolling builds that one particular mechanic, such as dead angles, could make them eminently viable.

    But I do agree that dead angles are one of the reasons Great shields, and to an extent the heavier medium shields are often past up in favor of lighter, less stable options. As it is planning to block more than a few attacks at a time just isn't the way to go.

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    Re: Your opinion on exploits such as Dead angling or Lag abuse?

    Post by Animaaal on Fri Jul 26, 2013 1:30 pm

    Jansports wrote:....There are too many problems with Fat/mid rolling builds that one particular mechanic, such as dead angles, could make them eminently viable...

    Ya, I'll totally jump on board with that. I didn't mean to make it sound like it was a mid-rolling tank's only hurdle.
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    Re: Your opinion on exploits such as Dead angling or Lag abuse?

    Post by hey its andres on Fri Jul 26, 2013 1:33 pm

    Well if you're a tank and you're locking on then the world is going to eat you alive.


    Also, my problem with spells dead angling is that if someone fires a Crystal Soul Spear from directly in front of me me and I have my shield up, then I should block it. I've gotten dead angled by HCSM and CSS despite the fact that I am facing the caster directly. This is a problem and simply needs to be fixed.


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    Re: Your opinion on exploits such as Dead angling or Lag abuse?

    Post by Jansports on Fri Jul 26, 2013 1:41 pm

    That sounds more like a latency issue of some sort. In every instance of me personally attempting to block a spell flying straight at my face, fired from someone directly facing me, I did in fact block it, I probably took chip, and if they're build was good quite a lot of it. But other than the odd invisible Pursuers/HCSM I haven't been mysteriously dead angled by the likes of CSS when it was clearly shot from in front of me
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    Re: Your opinion on exploits such as Dead angling or Lag abuse?

    Post by hey its andres on Fri Jul 26, 2013 1:48 pm

    Well that's why I'm saying that the way the combat is now, which is not how DkSII will be, spells should not have a dead angle. As of now their are numerous mechanical and connectivity issues regarding combat. You can have perfect connection to the person you're fighting and still get backstabbed from a mile away. It's not lag in most cases, it's just the way the game is.


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    Re: Your opinion on exploits such as Dead angling or Lag abuse?

    Post by Serious_Much on Fri Jul 26, 2013 1:50 pm

    hey its andres wrote:Well that's why I'm saying that the way the combat is now, which is not how DkSII will be, spells should not have a dead angle.

     I think people are getting confused by that saying andres. As I stated in my post above, what you are describing isn't an actual dead angle, it's just spells glitching out/ an exploit allowing casts of spells to appear to go through your shield. As such it's probably best to call it something else.


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    Re: Your opinion on exploits such as Dead angling or Lag abuse?

    Post by Wilkinson3424 on Fri Jul 26, 2013 1:51 pm

    Hopefully the new engine in DkS 2 fixes dead angling, and all those other nasty things that ruin the point of many builds and make them based around exploits rather then using the items as the game intended.


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    Re: Your opinion on exploits such as Dead angling or Lag abuse?

    Post by hey its andres on Fri Jul 26, 2013 1:53 pm

    But that's the problem with dead angling. It's not something that's intentional. I know it's a bit presumptuous for anyone to say what it is, but regardless of that it degrades a the combat system when people go around your shield just from twirling around.


    Honestly, I classify dead-angling in the same group as toggle-escape, build up escape, instant block, etc.


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    Re: Your opinion on exploits such as Dead angling or Lag abuse?

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Fri Jul 26, 2013 2:03 pm

    What is "lag abuse"?  If you mean strong attacks in lag, then that's an unfortunate reality of the poor net code in Dark Souls, but people aren't wrong for using a strong spell in a laggy environment.

    If you mean "tampering with the network aka lag switching", then that isn't a glitch.  That's explicitly cheating using 3rd party hardware to gain an insurmountable advantage.

    Short of pre-agreed rules to alter the game, everything in the game is reasonable to use.  The line is very clear though; once you start using stuff that can't be done that way and instead requires 3rd party hardware/software, you're in cheating territory.

    Glitches and what have you may be lame or not lame, but everyone should use them to the extent they see fit.


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    Re: Your opinion on exploits such as Dead angling or Lag abuse?

    Post by hey its andres on Fri Jul 26, 2013 2:20 pm

    That's horrible logic! So you were okay with the infinite dragon shout gankers where one would shout and while the other slashes away? That's just ridiculous! Just because glitches are "in the game" does not mean they should be exploited or left alone.


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    Re: Your opinion on exploits such as Dead angling or Lag abuse?

    Post by Soul of Stray Demon on Fri Jul 26, 2013 2:25 pm

    Purposely exploiting lag for any reason seems wrong, because From can't fix it no matter how much they want. Using glitches, is more arguably okay because at least if From really wanted it to stop, they could. But still, whether an exploit is fine to use or not is very situational  and depends on the exploit and what your opponent is doing as well. If they are hacking, you should be able to use everything at your disposal to beat them regardless if it's an exploit or not.

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    Re: Your opinion on exploits such as Dead angling or Lag abuse?

    Post by Acarnatia on Fri Jul 26, 2013 2:35 pm

    I view glitches as semi-hacking. Taking advantage of a glitch is aking advantage of something that simply was not meant to occur in the game. A parallel would be if someone starting somehow breaking the laws of physics during a tennis match.
    Regarding spell DA compared to weapons, I see both points. I've usually been subjected to much worse effects when DAed by a spell than when DAed by a weapon. Simeltaneously, though, the reasoning behind spells DAing and weapons DAing are the same-attacking from an angle that the defendant's shield does not block. I do wonder if this reveals a flaw/imbalance in how those spells currently function beyond DAing, then. Regarding some of the other issues I saw in the last few posts, I think some other issues and solutions are:
    BS-shrink the hitbox.
    Roll immunity-sometimes this is ridiculous. Either shorten the invinsibility frames, or outright remove altogether.
    Poise problems-I think too much poise is put on the non-chest armors, especially hands and head armor. I think the


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    Re: Your opinion on exploits such as Dead angling or Lag abuse?

    Post by Acarnatia on Fri Jul 26, 2013 2:45 pm

    Apologies for double-post, my ps3 has a text-limit.

    poise-to-roll-type issue can be improved by increasing the amount of poise given by chest armor and decreasing the amount given by the other body part armors. I think this will even the field for tanks. Aside from this, there also is the interesting note that gear weights were more accurate in Demon's Souls than in Dark Souls-in Dark,weapons were about 1.5 times their real-life weight, when they were pretty accurate in DeS. Armor was also about right in Des, and decreased (to around 3/4-2/3) in Dark. I hope From uses accurate weights again in the future.
    Small shields should have their stability reduced. Greatshields need something to deal with people who spam bleed weapons such as curbed swords and katanas, or bleed needs to be reworked-perhaps not going through shields, or at least not through greatshields.


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