Critical Hit Restrictions?

Still hate backstabs and believe shields should negate damage. Don't forget if you get behind these massive tankers you can still get a hit before you have to get back. you can also stab them after they have swung and missed with their oversized weapons as it leaves them completely exposed. BACKSTABS ARE NOT THE BE ALL AND END ALL. Y'know one weapon that is really good against armored tanks? Dragonslayer spear. In any case better the legion of full havels with dragon greatsword then the constant backstab dance in 'most every battle you have as it is at the moment.

Nobody said it is.

You're also assuming a weapon like the zweih. A single claymore swing is fairly quick, more than fast enough that you cannot expect to poke and roll out before they catch you with it (at the end of your roll most likely,) and the r2 recovery is more than fast enough to catch you with an unlocked r1 should you try to punish it with a simple poke and roll.

This is exactly the kind of "because I want it" argument with no regard for balance that wrecks many an otherwise competitive format (pokemon is plagued by this very thing, excluding the pro tour which only ban the legendaries, and event pokemon, due to a combination of avalibility, not everyone can get them, (un fair) and power, because if you're not a team of 6 arceus you aren't beating a team of 6 arceus(over centralizing.) Bsing has neither of these issues, you can beat bsing without bsing and everybody can do it.

If you want to redesign and balance a combat system, be my guest, I'll even play it and tell you what I think, but, as I said, "because I want it" is not a valid reason to make any change to a games combat systems, else I (and I alone) would have an instant kill button I used on people who annoy me, or just to troll.

My reason is not because i want it. My reason is that PvP combat on dark souls is effectively dead. More than 3 quarters of the battle i am in end in a backstab. Tanks are beatable and not really that hard is you got the right moves and quite fun to fight. Backstabs are retarded as they don't require you to do anything but circle the opposing player then stab them when lag helps put you right behind them. Backstabs should be used to punish the gullible, the fleeing and the unwary not to effectivly take over dark souls combat. I play on ps3, it may be different on other consoles but i am fed up of the constant backstabs and i feel there should be more to combat. IT IS BECAUSE OF MY REGARD FOR BALANCE THAT I WANT BACKSTABS REDUCED as they are basically all anyone ever seems to do and as such combat is biased towards light builds, fast high crit wepon, hornets ring and DWGR.

Oh and with a claymore you can still get a hit after the swing if you have a fast enough wepon. With a spear you have enough range to be able to dodge back away from the roll (tap circle and analogue stick backwards) making it easier.

Due to the new BS animation that increases risk, I think that the 2nd and third points are not required anymore. (and would be terrible anyways)

The first idea has been championed, but i think it should only be reduced damage, otherwise everyone would just swap to 2H their weapon whenever someone got near their back

 By the way why has noone even mentioned the new BS animation on this thread before me? considering it's on DkS2 section I think it would be kinda important, don't you?

We don't know how will BSing work in DkS II Serious. It might be utterly useless in PvP for all we know.
Same with the new Critical, that you can do after guard break.

I'd wait to see it in some PvP gameplay vid first, before talking about it with relation to PvP.

If PvE is the case, then I love the new BS animation. Not because of the way it looks, but because it will not give me invulnerability. No more cheesing group of mobs with backstabbing. I'd also like if they somehow removed chainstabbing from PvE as well. It makes early enemies like Black Knights and Havel pathetic.

samster628 wrote:My reason is not because i want it. My reason is that PvP combat on dark souls is effectively dead. More than 3 quarters of the battle i am in end in a backstab. Tanks are beatable and not really that hard is you got the right moves and quite fun to fight. Backstabs are retarded as they don't require you to do anything but circle the opposing player then stab them when lag helps put you right behind them. Backstabs should be used to punish the gullible, the fleeing and the unwary not to effectivly take over dark souls combat. I play on ps3, it may be different on other consoles but i am fed up of the constant backstabs and i feel there should be more to combat. IT IS BECAUSE OF MY REGARD FOR BALANCE THAT I WANT BACKSTABS REDUCED as they are basically all anyone ever seems to do and as such combat is biased towards light builds, fast high crit wepon, hornets ring and DWGR.

Oh and with a claymore you can still get a hit after the swing if you have a fast enough wepon. With a spear you have enough range to be able to dodge back away from the roll (tap circle and analogue stick backwards) making it easier.

That not asking for considering balance, that's considering what you want. You want backstabs to play a lesser role, this conclusion has nothing to do with balance, its what you want.

For the record, the reasons tanks are gimp is not back stabs, those are easy to fend off (fight unlocked and aim your attacks), the problem with tanks is a combination of magic (which is incredibly difficult to avoid with a mid roll,) dead angles (which negate greatshields. The problem with removing them being greatshield turtles are now neigh indestructible.) poise (the light fast builds have little trouble hitting 60+ poise and can hit 76+ poise without a huge strain, meaning the light build still cannot be stunned in 1 hit from the tanks weapon and is free to counter attack) and defense (diminishing returns kick in at 350, which light builds don't struggle to get after the humanity bonus, meaning all that extra armor does very little to reduce the damage done by any given weapon)

Did I not just explain how your solution would overpower 2h spam tanks? (it would also wreck stealth btw) The spear is so long it doesn't have to be in range of a claymore in the first place, and even then 2h spam tanks don't necessarily use the claymore.

Any curved sword or straight sword or katana or spear or greatsword could be reckless and have their gameplay rewarded because none of these weapons can be sight parried, and those that can be setup parried either stunlock or can attack from so far away that a parry is impossible, and now you can't bs them. Unless you're a tank you cannot afford to trade with the tank either, and there are spells and miracles to reduce magic damage, so you can now do...... nothing about the spam tank (most notably if they're using spears/halberds)

That's not a balanced solution, that's what from did to the des greataxe, overcorrecting and rendering an entire weapon class gimped.


For the record, having been playing online games for a very long time now, people always tend to favor light or medium dps builds. I've seen it in several mmo's, tor, wow, diablo, and light fast magic decks (goblins, valacut, allies, u/b control) are among the most popular in any given set. The same can be said for weapons in fps games, the assault rifle in every halo and cod game are among the most common weapons.

Know why? these are always, always, the least complicated builds to play. Run up, hit attack buttons, win. Unless from nerfs them into the ground, they'll still most likely remain far more common than tanks. (remember when all the tanks in dks died for a bit after 1.05? that's because they weren't fast anymore and took some effort to use, and now they're back, because they don't. They're only "tanks" because they can still fast roll through everything instead of having to learn how to tank. That's why all the gt 2h spam "tanks" are around too.)

Op is the op

for back stabs you gotta learn how 2 adapt, learn what 2 do in some situations and counter bs

solves the problem most times if u know what u are doing but sometimes u can mess up

Its not that I don't want bsing to play a somewhat lesser role, because I do, but that is just not the balanced way to go about it.

This is exactly the kind of "because I want it" argument with no regard for balance that wrecks many an otherwise competitive format (pokemon is plagued by this very thing, excluding the pro tour which only ban the legendaries, and event pokemon, due to a combination of avalibility, not everyone can get them, (un fair) and power, because if you're not a team of 6 arceus you aren't beating a team of 6 arceus(over centralizing.)

Pokemon is a special case, but it's not like you describe.  Competitive pokemon has tiers based upon usage, but also things like "species" and "sleep" clauses such that you can't just put everything on the opposing team to sleep or run 6x any pokemon.  Legendaries are not banned, but rather "ubers" are banned.  The distinction is important; something that is absolutely "legendary" like regigigas is in the "neverused" tier because its ability makes it suck.  The extremely common excadrill in gen 5 made its way into "ubers" because it gets swords dance, double speed in sand, and excellent coverage moves, forcing every single team ever at any tier to have a counter to it that still might not work.

However, the balance in the base game is so god-awful that even all of this doesn't make it a "competitive" game, and relic holdovers make it even worse.  One move, "stealth rock" is so strong that it's used several times more often than some other moves in the top 10, and it completely limits what's viable (how is that not overcentralizing?!).  Things like paralyze procs and especially critical hits (which stupidly ignore all defense boosts on TOP of getting 2x damage) far too often allow someone who got outplayed to win.  Could you imagine that in Dark Souls?  Whoops...zwei hit you for 1500 off an R1 cuz crit lolololololol #yourrmordoesn'tcount.  Get hit by a spell?  How about a 1/4 chance from that point on of any time you roll you just do an "overencumbered stumble".

It's sad because pokemon has a tremendous amount of strategic depth potential, but the rules made are arbitrary and despite claims against overcentralization, it gets overcentralized to the point where play is similar and luck takes over far too often.  Compared to THAT disaster, the souls games have competitive balance in spades, if only because you have more than 2-3 competitively viable options and you don't win or lose on pure random chance so often that winning a tournament is a statistical improbability for even the best player in the world.

6 Arceus wouldn't even be competitive in ubers BTW .  Not with crap like drizzle (kyogre, most used pokemon in ubers) + swift swim out there.  There are more than a few teams that don't even run 1 arceus in ubers.

 The existence of a "pro" (very loose term) scene in that game is almost concrete proof that the Souls series could have one, and a much better one since lag is the only "random chance" aspect of the game at all, and we're going to get servers.

That's smogon rules, not the pro tour.

Smogons rules are what I was referring to as the "because I want it" attitude. They are thought out, but as you said, arbitrary, made based on the opinions of the top few people (on smogon) because they don't like dealing with it in whatever tier they're playing (eg double team.) there is nothing stopping you from roaring or whirlwinding or hazing it off, or walling it out with toxic, it just requires something on your team have that ability, which was a good idea anyways because otherwise there is a decent chance you get flattened by a x3 attack terrokion or something similar.

Pro tour banns legendary pokemon and event pokemon, and dous things at level 50. I might have the name wrong though, but its an officially sanctioned tournament Nintendo does.

Forum Pirate wrote:That's smogon rules, not the pro tour.

Smogons rules are what I was referring to as the "because I want it" attitude. They are thought out, but as you said, arbitrary, made based on the opinions of the top few people (on smogon) because they don't like dealing with it in whatever tier they're playing (eg double team.) there is nothing stopping you from roaring or whirlwinding or hazing it off, or walling it out with toxic, it just requires something on your team have that ability, which was a good idea anyways because otherwise there is a decent chance you get flattened by a x3 attack terrokion or something similar.

Pro tour banns legendary pokemon and event pokemon, and dous things at level 50. I might have the name wrong though, but its an officially sanctioned tournament Nintendo does.

Does literally anything else go other than that?  If it's like the in-game rules then it would ban some legendaries (IE I think they allow trio stuff like uxie or coballion but not stuff like kyogre in the in-game tournaments)...but sleep spam would be really annoying .  Spore spore spore lol.

Double team is interesting.  It's worth noting that there are moves that ignore all accuracy modifiers, but are weaker than normal.  I think roar/whirlwind can miss with evasion, but not those moves (technicians move them up to 90base though which is solid).  I don't see how this move would be more ubiquitous than stealth rock...but I never did like smogon.

Still crits and parahax make that game a rather hateful thing to play competitively.  I would have quit dark souls long ago if I randomly died while doing the exact perfect choices.  Crits are worse, and long-gone are the days where they were "needed to break stall ties".

My favorite memory is the short period of time where two wobbafetts could shadow-tag lock each other, with leftovers out-healing the damage done (before struggle became so suicidal).  I bet those matches were fun  .

the sleep moves all have sub 60 accuracy atm (I think) and there are pokemon that are immune or wake up next turn. (in fact my rain team has a vaporeon that rests every turn because its cured of status at the end of the turn. I use toxic or poision spikes and wall their special attackers out or force a switch)

And no, roar can't be dodged/whirlwind/toxic can't be dodged, but a rare few can ignore it. I don't think any are especially good though.

Forum Pirate wrote:
That not asking for considering balance, that's considering what you want.

 Bull crap good sir. The unbalance is the lack of diversity in PvP because everyone is swayed to light builds. This in turn is because it is easier to just circle and get a lagstab while light than to go heavy or medium.
You seem to have trouble understanding this concept so i will put in the definition of the word balanced here for you.

There is always an uneven distribution of builds/characters/weapons. Thats how online games work. Did I not just explain why that is?

People seem to prefer simple to use builds, and simple to use builds are almost always dps, and dps is almost always light or medium. This is not something the devs have any control over, no matter what they do, save romove dps builds from the game entirely. They have no say in who enjoys what playstyle.

That type of balance has nothing to do with competitive balance, btw. Either you've been using a definition of balance that has nothing to do with the way balance is generally used on this forum, without saying so, the entire conversation, or thats a thin justification to "prove" your point in an attempt to win, because i have already demonstrated (repeatedly) that your suggestion would not aid balance in the competitive sense, being: "roughly equal overall effectiveness"

In either case, you're still wrong. All your "solution" would do is swing everybody to 2h spam tanks, and there would be no point at all in playing a lighter build.

That post was to show that when i say PvP combat is unbalanced that is absolutely correct and so your (mildly offensive) post which basically said this was all my opinion is untrue. What ever way you look at it PvP is unbalanced because almost everybody seems to backstab. People who use light builds do so because it is easier to backstab.
Now i am not saying that backstabs should be taken out of the game. That would lead everyone to become a tank sort of character, however i do think backstabs need to be reduced in terms of angle size and damage. The shield on the back thing i suppose is a moot point. I personally quite like no backstabs through shields because i always found the animations of stabbing through the shield retarded but that is just my opinion. Don't forget while your sheild is on your back you can have only very limited blocked damage generally about 50% physical and 25%ish to the elements and magic so i think its fair trade.

samster628 wrote:That post was to show that when i say PvP combat is unbalanced that is absolutely correct and so your (mildly offensive) post which basically said this was all my opinion is untrue. What ever way you look at it PvP is unbalanced because almost everybody seems to ATTACK. People who use light builds do so because it is easier to ATTACK.
Now i am not saying that ATTACKs should be taken out of the game. That would lead everyone to become a tank sort of character, however i do think ATTACKs need to be reduced in terms of angle size and damage. The shield on the back thing i suppose is a moot point. I personally quite like no ATTACKs through shields because i always found the animations of ATTACKing through the shield retarded but that is just my opinion. Don't forget while your sheild is on your back you can have only very limited blocked damage generally about 50% physical and 25%ish to the elements and magic so i think its fair trade.

I have now invalidated your arguement by demonstrating that it applies to every potential action in game.

I respect your right to your opinion, but when an opinion can be demonstrated to be incorrect, it is not a matter of opinion anymore, its a matter of fact. (2h spam tanks don't have to block, for the record. When was the last time you saw a chaos giant dad block? I've never seen it, and I've seen a lot of them.)

i (as usual) ment no offence. I'm sorry I offended you, i am very careful to attack arguements and logic, not people (personal attacks are unhelpful,) so any percieved insult was not intentional, unless you take offence at me attacking your arguements (in which case I cannot avoid that in the context of a debate.)

As I said, I would also like bsing to play somewhat a lesser role (though I would not decrease the damage,) but it has nothing to do with balance, and it is not something I would do if it upsets the balance, as your soultion would. (in ways I have already explained)

. "Cannot perform a backstab if the foe has a shield on his/her back"

I will always agree with this.

- it shouldn't be about adapting to Backstab pvp, it should be about balance so one move is not the dominant, easy to pull off, combat mechanic negating default tactic to fall back on when skill is not on your side.

Way to read the thread and see the explinations as to how that would simply make a different tactic the defualt tactic for the masses, not to mention creating a whole mess of balance issues.

I completely agree with Samster628 in regards to how the backstab mechanic in Dark Souls almost completely trashes the “tank build” concept.

I completely disagree that having shields on your back to nullify backstab damage is a good idea in any way shape or form.

I agree with sam and pirate both that backstabs should play a “lesser role” in Dark Souls 2.

I’m also confused as to why people are saying that tanks are in the same tier as fast rolling builds now-a-days.  They’re not completely useless, but in no way are they competitive in a “balanced” way.  Fast rolls have an edge 99/100 times, imo.

Here’s why:

Forum Pirate wrote:............For the record, the reasons tanks are gimp is not back stabs (no, but that has a looooot to do with it), those are easy to fend off (fight unlocked and aim your attacks), the problem with tanks is a combination of magic (which is incredibly difficult to avoid with a mid roll,) dead angles (which negate greatshields (all true in addition to the whole not being able to rollstab thing). The problem with removing them being greatshield turtles are now neigh indestructible.) poise (the light fast builds have little trouble hitting 60+ poise and can hit 76+ poise without a huge strain, meaning the light build still cannot be stunned in 1 hit from the tanks weapon and is free to counter attack) and defense (diminishing returns kick in at 350, which light builds don't struggle to get after the humanity bonus, meaning all that extra armor does very little to reduce the damage done by any given weapon)(excellent points on why a fast rolling build is almost ALWAYS a tier above a mid-roller)........

And just one more time about the shield on your back thing…

Forum Pirate wrote:.......that would simply make a different tactic the defualt tactic for the masses, not to mention creating a whole mess of balance issues.

Forum Pirate wrote:........People seem to prefer simple to use builds, and simple to use builds are almost always dps, and dps is almost always light or medium.......

I resent that a little bit actually.

The easiest character to play in DCUO was a tank for me.  Sure sometimes the lack of dps or true healing made some things difficult, but overall, my tank was easiest to play.

And also, I have a couple 6-9 poise builds, and they're not easy to play at all.
*Against anyone other than a mid-rolling tank lol... I mean.....

Seems like you're saying tanks in Dark Souls are harder to play because of one's mental fortitude and/or skill alone, in which case I say "bs", its because mid-rollers are gimped to hell because of the backstab mechanic itself.

If that hellservant dude in bloody's tourney was mid-rolling, then I'll rethink my opinion, but as of now its pretty basic factual stuff to me.

I dissagree very strongly. I can, and do, mid roll bs people, it just takes more prediction. I midroll bs wog, for example, though I have to be right on top of them (which is when they're most likely to use it)

I'm never bs'd with my tank. Its as simple as unlocking and aiming your attacks. I'd guess that the tanks you play are making stupid mistakes, because even experienced duelists like reim and rob are more likely to get killed trying to bs me, than to bs me, even if I'm mid rolling with a verticvally swinging weapon like a kat.

The only time I have any issues is with slow and vertically swinging weapons, like the great axe.



I said light, not feather weight. my point stands. I also used the term generally to indicate that there are exceptions.

Generally gimped, yes (though not by so wide a margine as many seem to believe. All that weight leaves a lot of room to impliment hard counters for problematic tactics) but not by bsing.

You wont roll bs me with a mid-roller. And also, that fact that a mid-roller's roll bses are so gimped allows me to make an unprecedented amount of mistakes and play A LOT more recklessly.

Also, its been this way since release. There's no difference between you and any other mid-roller I've fought since October 2011, I mean you no offense. Skill can only compensate for so much.

The DWGR made them more viable, but not viable enough.

Das only work if you block. I'm finding it insanely easy to roll bs da attempts, depends on weapon, and if they have a gimmick.

Mid-rollers are on the fifty yard line while I'm/we are in the end zone.

Again, if a mid-roller ever wins a serious tourney, I'll change my mind...and prolly drink some wine as I watch the sky fall.  

You're assuming I dead angle you. Patience.

I don't have to get around your guard if i trade, and unless you have a spear (in which case I pull out a spear and turtle) then you'll have to get in range eventually and I only have to predict your move once to kill you with a combo you cannot do anything about should that first hit land.

As has been said in another thread, tanks are all about patience and timing, mostly to land favorable trades (and then win on the spot if at all possible)

Its just takes a different skill set, and there is a lot of weight room for hard counters in a mid roll to deal with problem tactics.

Its disadvantaged, yes, but not gimped to the extent most people seem to believe. Besides, the roll bs is really predictable even when fast rollers do it. "do I have a heavy weapon? Are they just inside its range and staying there? yes? they intend to roll bs"

Just for the record, I didn't say you wouldn't beat me, or that I haven't lost to mid-rollers.

I lose to mid-rollers maybe 1-2 out of 10 fights?...its the reason I consider myself still a vet and not a pro.

I'm just saying as far as mid-roll bsing is concerned, well, I'd name my next born "forum" or "pirate" if you landed one on me.

And also for the record, when I say "you", I'm not saying, "Ya you ***** because my ballz are huge and swag, my swaggy swag!!!!!"

And lastly Idc what anyone says, you're actually one of the easiest people to talk to here pirate.  Just as long as you set all that personal bs aside, and understand what you're getting yourself into, talking to you is easy.  You're one of the realest people here, hence the "trash talking" tone in  a couple of my comments.  I didn't think you'd mind much.

And just to make sure I'm off-topic, the MoM should be reserved in FCs for mid-roller/tanks.

Forum Pirate wrote:Way to read the thread and see the explinations as to how that would simply make a different tactic the defualt tactic for the masses, not to mention creating a whole mess of balance issues.

I did read the thread, and given the fact that non of us have experienced DkS pvp with said mechanic, i feel that it shouldnt be dismissed based solely off of conjecture or opinion that "the vacuum will just end up filled, so why change it" argument..

It would be a defensive measure.. Not an offensive tactic, which is currently in place, most often OHKO that trumps all other moves. As stated, it physically makes sense whereas currently it kinda defies physics (yes I know, it's a videogame). It could be balanced so that consequently wearing the shield on back lowers poise, or slows roll; any number of take-aways so not everyone will want to 2h w/ shield on back without considering the risks.

Just don't jump to dismiss it bc it was "explained previously" and somehow that is the definitive end of discussion; its one of the points of concern from the OP...

Backstabbing needs to only be possible while your target is not locked on to you.
While using an estus or other healing item you should lose lock on.

Alternatively remove the animations and have backstabs just do +300% damage (+2000% for daggers)