Critical Hit Restrictions?

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    O1va_
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    Re: Critical Hit Restrictions?

    Post by O1va_ on Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:02 am

    LunarFog wrote:
    Haha.  You aren't even being serious anymore are you?  You might never have said it flat out but the fact is that you're saying BS is fine as it is, and as it is right now the PvP revolves around it.  I can deal with it fine.  I never lose and the majority of my kills are all from bs. 


    And why are you even talking about ganking in the first place?  This thread is about the BS problem.

    Now that is entirely your own proplem and fault, if you choose to revolve your gameplay around a single winning tactic, don't blame others for doing it to you. And now you're joking, no-one never loses.

    I'm talking about ganking because all your suggestion was ever going to change was making fighting ganks even harder, and as many duelists never fight ganks (unless forced) I'm bringing a point of view in to the conversation that might not be considered otherwise. No need for your arrogance.

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    Re: Critical Hit Restrictions?

    Post by Animaaal on Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:21 am

    How about if the hosts can hit the phantoms, but the phantoms cant hit the hosts?

    Also, I think FROM themselves feel backstabs/parries/I-frames/etc still need refinement.  We've seen an adjustment to these mechanics in Dark Souls, and it appears they are not only making more tweaks, but are using an entirely different engine.

    I think anyone who's played with any amount of seriousness can agree that it has ALWAYS been "Backstab Souls 1" and "Backstab Souls 2".  Hopefully Dark Souls 2 will be Backstab Souls 2.0 "revised"....if you catch my drift.

    I'm really excited about the changes.  Something needed to be done for sure.
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    Re: Critical Hit Restrictions?

    Post by LunarFog on Tue Jul 23, 2013 2:55 am

    O1va_ wrote:Now that is entirely your own proplem and fault, if you choose to revolve your gameplay around a single winning tactic, don't blame others for doing it to you. And now you're joking, no-one never loses.

    I'm talking about ganking because all your suggestion was ever going to change was making fighting ganks even harder, and as many duelists never fight ganks (unless forced) I'm bringing a point of view in to the conversation that might not be considered otherwise. No need for your arrogance.
    My gameplay doesn't revolve around bs fishing.  It revolves around counter bs fishing.  See the difference?  And do you see how sad the situation suddenly got?  I guess you wouldn't.  Since you seem to be flip-flopping around whether or not you think ganking is a problem based on if you could use it to support some asinine point.


    If you don't realize how many garbage windows for BSing my suggestion would close in 1v1 fights then you're apparently not very adept at PvP and in that case I shouldn't even be bothering.

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    Re: Critical Hit Restrictions?

    Post by O1va_ on Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:56 am

    LunarFog wrote:
    O1va_ wrote:Now that is entirely your own proplem and fault, if you choose to revolve your gameplay around a single winning tactic, don't blame others for doing it to you. And now you're joking, no-one never loses.

    I'm talking about ganking because all your suggestion was ever going to change was making fighting ganks even harder, and as many duelists never fight ganks (unless forced) I'm bringing a point of view in to the conversation that might not be considered otherwise. No need for your arrogance.
    My gameplay doesn't revolve around bs fishing.  It revolves around counter bs fishing.  See the difference?  And do you see how sad the situation suddenly got?  I guess you wouldn't.  Since you seem to be flip-flopping around whether or not you think ganking is a problem based on if you could use it to support some asinine point.


    If you don't realize how many garbage windows for BSing my suggestion would close in 1v1 fights then you're apparently not very adept at PvP and in that case I shouldn't even be bothering.

    Your suggestion was that you couldn't be BSd if you're not in some animation. If you're not in an animation it's already pretty hard to BS you, unless you're just standing still or running at me. I don't see how that solves anything. Sure BS fishers are boring to fight, but even without BS those people would find whatever works best and rely on that one tactick, which would still be boring to fight. Thats not an issue with mechanics it's about playstyle.

    So don't bother, I'll do the same.
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    Re: Critical Hit Restrictions?

    Post by LunarFog on Tue Jul 23, 2013 4:13 am

    O1va_ wrote:
    Your suggestion was that you couldn't be BSd if you're not in some animation. If you're not in an animation it's already pretty hard to BS you, unless you're just standing still or running at me. I don't see how that solves anything. Sure BS fishers are boring to fight, but even without BS those people would find whatever works best and rely on that one tactick, which would still be boring to fight. Thats not an issue with mechanics it's about playstyle.

    So don't bother, I'll do the same.
    It's hard to BS?  In what way?  Even without any lag you can easily lure someone into a backstab almost as easily as you can counter that with a backstab.  Backstabbing is easier and more viable to do in a fight than to turtle successfully.


    Your argument of "don't fix backstabs because the people who BS fish will just find another way to be boring" makes about as much sense as "don't arrest anyone breaking the law because other people will still break it".  If they find a mechanic to abuse that is actually functional and not broken then that'd be perfect.

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    Re: Critical Hit Restrictions?

    Post by O1va_ on Tue Jul 23, 2013 4:34 am

    LunarFog wrote:It's hard to BS?  In what way?  Even without any lag you can easily lure someone into a backstab almost as easily as you can counter that with a backstab.  Backstabbing is easier and more viable to do in a fight than to turtle successfully.


    Your argument of "don't fix backstabs because the people who BS fish will just find another way to be boring" makes about as much sense as "don't arrest anyone breaking the law because other people will still break it".  If they find a mechanic to abuse that is actually functional and not broken then that'd be perfect.

    You say that BS mechanic is broken, then that you only counter BS fish and now you say you lure people to BS and then counter it? What are these luring tactics? To me it's pretty obvious when someone is going for BS, and I allmost never get BSd unless I made an error. Fighting someone with any competence you're not just going to BS, they'll just counter you. How can it be easy to counter and be viable at the same time?

    Last part of your post made no sense at all.
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    Re: Critical Hit Restrictions?

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:06 pm

    LunarFog wrote:
    O1va_ wrote:
    Your suggestion was that you couldn't be BSd if you're not in some animation. If you're not in an animation it's already pretty hard to BS you, unless you're just standing still or running at me. I don't see how that solves anything. Sure BS fishers are boring to fight, but even without BS those people would find whatever works best and rely on that one tactick, which would still be boring to fight. Thats not an issue with mechanics it's about playstyle.

    So don't bother, I'll do the same.
    It's hard to BS?  In what way?  Even without any lag you can easily lure someone into a backstab almost as easily as you can counter that with a backstab.  Backstabbing is easier and more viable to do in a fight than to turtle successfully.


    Your argument of "don't fix backstabs because the people who BS fish will just find another way to be boring" makes about as much sense as "don't arrest anyone breaking the law because other people will still break it".  If they find a mechanic to abuse that is actually functional and not broken then that'd be perfect.

    No client side animation freeze updating + dedicated servers = no backstab problem.

    Servers mean that much.

    The main reason they cause grief is the warping; the time estimation for them is simply different from other attacks.  However, it is completely impossible to BS someone who just backs away and strafes in the opposite direction.  It's especially amusing to watch what buff fishers on a timer do against such a tactic.

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    Re: Critical Hit Restrictions?

    Post by Animaaal on Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:19 pm

    Its not impossible to backstab someone who back peddles the whole time, just harder.

    And also, an actual server system and a smaller hitbox will do a lot to help the "telestab" epidemic....but the "tail" will still be there.

    I super excited to learn more about "escaping backstabs". I think its a much needed feature.
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    Re: Critical Hit Restrictions?

    Post by Sentiel on Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:24 pm

    Usually DWGR guys can flip behind me even if I backpedal from them and bs me without breaking a sweat.

    Unlocked sprint to pivot bs should work as well.

    In the worst case scenario, remember that the guy is locked on to you to backpedal. Use this to force his back to hit something he can't see thanks to his camera angle, thus gaining you some distance between you and getting close.

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    Re: Critical Hit Restrictions?

    Post by LunarFog on Tue Jul 23, 2013 9:05 pm

    O1va_ wrote:
    LunarFog wrote:It's hard to BS?  In what way?  Even without any lag you can easily lure someone into a backstab almost as easily as you can counter that with a backstab.  Backstabbing is easier and more viable to do in a fight than to turtle successfully.


    Your argument of "don't fix backstabs because the people who BS fish will just find another way to be boring" makes about as much sense as "don't arrest anyone breaking the law because other people will still break it".  If they find a mechanic to abuse that is actually functional and not broken then that'd be perfect.

    You say that BS mechanic is broken, then that you only counter BS fish and now you say you lure people to BS and then counter it? What are these luring tactics? To me it's pretty obvious when someone is going for BS, and I allmost never get BSd unless I made an error. Fighting someone with any competence you're not just going to BS, they'll just counter you. How can it be easy to counter and be viable at the same time?

    Last part of your post made no sense at all.
    You should at least put in the effort required to make sure you're reading properly.  I never said that I lure people to BS.  Let me take a step back and slow it down for you.


    I'm sure that if you tried your super hardest, you can understand that anything can be countered, even the most safe and viable techniques like turtle poking, and dark bead/pursuers spam.  Backstabbing, the thing we're currently about, is much like one of those playstyles.    The problem with that statement though, is that backstabbing isn't meant to be a playstyle in the first place.  Am I wrong?  

    And I'm sorry for using that analogy you didn't get.  I should have been more considerate to your limited understanding and only use the simplest of ideas and sentences so you can understand me better.  That was completely my fault.

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    Re: Critical Hit Restrictions?

    Post by Jansports on Wed Jul 24, 2013 2:23 am

    LunarFog wrote:The problem with that statement though, is that backstabbing isn't meant to be a playstyle in the first place.  Am I wrong? 

     Yes you are.

    Playstyles develope based on what's possible within the game. Exclusively using bleed weapons, trying to stunlock with hammers, using 58 casts of GC(it is some peoples favorite sword) and yes even exclusively looking for a chance to critical are all play styles that have developed throughout the course of this game.

    On what authority can you even begin to define what is and is not meant to be a playstyle? If it's doable in game then logically it could become a play style.
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    Re: Critical Hit Restrictions?

    Post by O1va_ on Wed Jul 24, 2013 5:13 am

    LunarFog wrote:You should at least put in the effort required to make sure you're reading properly.  I never said that I lure people to BS.  Let me take a step back and slow it down for you.


    I'm sure that if you tried your super hardest, you can understand that anything can be countered, even the most safe and viable techniques like turtle poking, and dark bead/pursuers spam.  Backstabbing, the thing we're currently about, is much like one of those playstyles.    The problem with that statement though, is that backstabbing isn't meant to be a playstyle in the first place.  Am I wrong?  

    And I'm sorry for using that analogy you didn't get.  I should have been more considerate to your limited understanding and only use the simplest of ideas and sentences so you can understand me better.  That was completely my fault.

    Why would there be weapons with poor damage on normal attacs and boosted criticals if they were not meant to be used for criticals?

    Your analogy and the rest of the paragraph made no sense, I never said I didn't understood the words you were using. Maybe instead of slowing down you should go to the playground and play with the other kids, there you can win an argument by being the loudest, I have no need for your condescending attitude. Just because you don't like something doesn't mean the rest of the world agrees with you.
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    Re: Critical Hit Restrictions?

    Post by Serious_Much on Wed Jul 24, 2013 6:33 am

    While PvP discussion can be contentious and people can get very involved in the discussion, please avoid the personal jabs.

    Instead of throwing petty insults at each other I would suggest you spend more time thinking over your discussion points and how to explain them in a better, and less abrasive manner.

    I'd also like to remind you to stay on topic. This is a thread about criticals in Dark Souls II, and how you all think they should/will be developed. Derailing topics is against the guidelines and I'd advise you to get back to the topic of the thread, or move on and allow posters who wish to converse about the topic to do so.


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    Re: Critical Hit Restrictions?

    Post by LunarFog on Wed Jul 24, 2013 6:06 pm

    O1va_ wrote:
    LunarFog wrote:You should at least put in the effort required to make sure you're reading properly.  I never said that I lure people to BS.  Let me take a step back and slow it down for you.


    I'm sure that if you tried your super hardest, you can understand that anything can be countered, even the most safe and viable techniques like turtle poking, and dark bead/pursuers spam.  Backstabbing, the thing we're currently about, is much like one of those playstyles.    The problem with that statement though, is that backstabbing isn't meant to be a playstyle in the first place.  Am I wrong?  

    And I'm sorry for using that analogy you didn't get.  I should have been more considerate to your limited understanding and only use the simplest of ideas and sentences so you can understand me better.  That was completely my fault.

    Why would there be weapons with poor damage on normal attacs and boosted criticals if they were not meant to be used for criticals?

    Your analogy and the rest of the paragraph made no sense, I never said I didn't understood the words you were using. Maybe instead of slowing down you should go to the playground and play with the other kids, there you can win an argument by being the loudest, I have no need for your condescending attitude. Just because you don't like something doesn't mean the rest of the world agrees with you.

     Whether or not some weapons were made for criticals(obviously) is completely irrelevant to whether or not the backstabbing in Dark Souls is broken.  What reasons can you make up that would justify that backstabs were meant for standard combat, instead of being a situational advantage?  And if you're going to try and use lame insults like that, the least you can do is attempt to be clever about it, but hey, let's stay on topic.  

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    Re: Critical Hit Restrictions?

    Post by LunarFog on Wed Jul 24, 2013 6:08 pm

    Jansports wrote:
    LunarFog wrote:The problem with that statement though, is that backstabbing isn't meant to be a playstyle in the first place.  Am I wrong? 

     Yes you are.

    Playstyles develope based on what's possible within the game. Exclusively using bleed weapons, trying to stunlock with hammers, using 58 casts of GC(it is some peoples favorite sword) and yes even exclusively looking for a chance to critical are all play styles that have developed throughout the course of this game.

    On what authority can you even begin to define what is and is not meant to be a playstyle? If it's doable in game then logically it could become a play style.

     You'll have to wait your turn.  Double posting is frowned upon by a lot of people and I'd rather avoid it as much as I can.  

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    Re: Critical Hit Restrictions?

    Post by Serious_Much on Wed Jul 24, 2013 6:22 pm

    you know you could just talk to two people in one post, lunar. Besides, I don't think anyone really minds double posting if I'm honest. It's never bothered me and I've done it occasionally silly


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    Re: Critical Hit Restrictions?

    Post by LunarFog on Wed Jul 24, 2013 6:30 pm

    Serious_Much wrote:you know you could just talk to two people in one post, lunar. Besides, I don't think anyone really minds double posting if I'm honest. It's never bothered me and I've done it occasionally silly

     Never figured out how since the format changed.  My trusty "Copy and paste" technique only results in


    [b style="border-bottom-width: 1px; border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-color: rgb(170, 170, 170); display: block; font-weight: 700;"][b style="border-bottom-width: 1px; border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-color: rgb(170, 170, 170); display: block; font-weight: 700;"][b style="border-bottom-width: 1px; border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-color: rgb(170, 170, 170); display: block; font-weight: 700;"]Serious_Much[/b][/b][/b]you know you could just talk to two people in one post, lunar. Besides, I don't think anyone really minds double posting if I'm honest. It's never bothered me and I've done it occasionally silly

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    Re: Critical Hit Restrictions?

    Post by Serious_Much on Wed Jul 24, 2013 6:38 pm

    On the posting bit, there is a page icon at the top with all the buttons that changes the editor mode back to how it used to be so you can do everything easily again. I can't use the new formatting either silly


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    Re: Critical Hit Restrictions?

    Post by LunarFog on Wed Jul 24, 2013 7:21 pm

    Serious_Much wrote:On the posting bit, there is a page icon at the top with all the buttons that changes the editor mode back to how it used to be so you can do everything easily again. I can't use the new formatting either silly
    Oh hey...Much better.

    Jansports wrote:

    On what authority can you even begin to define what is and is not meant to be a playstyle? If it's doable in game then logically it could become a play style.

    Are you saying that if the jumping R2 attack was faulty and resulted in the animation, stamina consumption to block, and damage of a diving attack it would be considered a legitimate playstyle, even though one can safely assume that it's intent and purposes were solely for situational advantages?  AND that if it existed, it wouldn't need to be fixed or addressed in any way?

    Now think of backstabs. There's a thing called "Dominant Strategy" and basically what that means is that if one strategy is better than any others, players will use it even if it's a bug, faulty programming, cheap, a mechanic that needs to be fixed, or any other word you want to use to describe backstabs.

    You're confusing "Possible Playstyles" with "Intended Playstyles".


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    Re: Critical Hit Restrictions?

    Post by BrotherBob on Wed Jul 24, 2013 8:03 pm

    LunarFog wrote:Now think of backstabs.  There's a thing called "Dominant Strategy" and basically what that means is that if one strategy is better than any others, players will use it even if it's a bug, faulty programming, cheap, a mechanic that needs to be fixed, or any other word you want to use to describe backstabs.  

    You're confusing "Possible Playstyles" with "Intended Playstyles".
    I agree with LunarFog to a degree. I'm a little late to the party, but I just heard of an interesting little thing called move-switching (something that I think I can safely say was not intended). It's not too difficult to pull off and can easily do massive damage that rivals (if not surpasses) that of any backstab. It definitely needs to be fixed before people start abusing it and using it as a legitimate "playstyle".

    In my mind, the issue is not whether a backstabbing playstyle is legitimate. The problem is, as LunarFog said, that it's too powerful and/or faulty and needs to be tweaked so that it's on par with other playstyles.


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    Re: Critical Hit Restrictions?

    Post by SirArchmage on Wed Jul 24, 2013 8:49 pm

    I rather like the way they are implementing it in Dark Souls 2. Currently it's just a bit too easy and powerful.

    That is all.

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    Re: Critical Hit Restrictions?

    Post by Forum Pirate on Wed Jul 24, 2013 10:19 pm

    SirArchmage wrote:I rather like the way they are implementing it in Dark Souls 2. Currently it's just a bit too easy  
    Agreed

    SirArchmage wrote: and powerful
    Dissagreed. Its the ratio thats off. Its both easier and more powerful (in terms of pure damage) than anything else a melee weapon can do, and that is the problem.

    To compensate for the high damage, it simply needs to be tougher to do. Magic is, exempt, to a point, because of limited casts and anti magic spells, which a backstab doesn't have.


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    Re: Critical Hit Restrictions?

    Post by Emergence on Thu Jul 25, 2013 2:17 am

    Ok locked per op request. Feel free to continue the discussion in a new thread though.


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