Critical Hit Restrictions?

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    goober0331
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    Re: Critical Hit Restrictions?

    Post by goober0331 on Fri Jul 19, 2013 2:30 pm

    With the addition of servers, laggy bs/parry/phantom range should be addressed.

    With the addition of smaller hitboxes for parries/backstabs, and with the chance of actually missing those and being more vulnerable, nullifies the fact that you can swarm enemies and just bs/parry them all to death. 

    But I dont like the concept of taking damage while performing a bs/parry. That would make fighting against gankers nearly impossible, especially with the before mentioned additions, or against mobs.
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    Re: Critical Hit Restrictions?

    Post by LunarFog on Fri Jul 19, 2013 2:54 pm

    goober0331 wrote:

    But I dont like the concept of taking damage while performing a bs/parry. That would make fighting against gankers nearly impossible, especially with the before mentioned additions, or against mobs.

     It's possible that they added ways to disuade or nerf gankers.  Things like non-damaging friendly fire so that gankers could hit their own teammates, and split souls from killing black phantoms would definitely help.


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    Re: Critical Hit Restrictions?

    Post by BrotherBob on Fri Jul 19, 2013 3:53 pm

    I like the idea of friendly fire. When an invader attempts a backstab or riposte on the host, the phantom will have the opportunity to attack the invader and (potentially) cancel the invader's backstab/riposte but at the expense of possibly hitting the host as well. Maybe they'll make a trophy that you can get by invading and having a phantom kill the host.


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    Re: Critical Hit Restrictions?

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Fri Jul 19, 2013 4:18 pm

    BrotherBob wrote:I like the idea of friendly fire. When an invader attempts a backstab or riposte on the host, the phantom will have the opportunity to attack the invader and (potentially) cancel the invader's backstab/riposte but at the expense of possibly hitting the host as well. Maybe they'll make a trophy that you can get by invading and having a phantom kill the host.

    Wouldn't take long to get.  I've seen so many "accidental" killings by darkwraiths/SoV helping the host and one of the other killed each other while trying to attack me.  This is especially common with stuff like crystal soul spear, fire tempest, plunging attacks with multiple chasers, etc.

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    Re: Critical Hit Restrictions?

    Post by Animaaal on Fri Jul 19, 2013 4:59 pm

    Personally, I don't like the friendly fire idea.

    I like multiple invaders that can team up like the forest hunters or the darkmoons.

    I'd also hate to dead angle my phantom because I was trying to kill a single invader that has better enemy AI on their side this time around.

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    Re: Critical Hit Restrictions?

    Post by BrotherBob on Fri Jul 19, 2013 7:58 pm

    @TheMeInTeam: Yep, you're right, but I think it'd be satisfying to get a trophy after such a satisfying "kill".

    @Animaaal: Sure, Forest Hunters can team up with Darkwraiths and Darkmoons in the Forest, but it's important to note that they can accidentally hit each other. Including host-summon friendly fire would even the odds. Likewise, I'd like invaders of the same covenant to be able to damage each other as well. Plus, it's just more realistic, unless, of course, someone can give a decent lore-based reason for "no friendly-fire".


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    Re: Critical Hit Restrictions?

    Post by Animaaal on Fri Jul 19, 2013 8:05 pm

    @Brother

    I know, that's why I like the concept of forest pvp and dark anor pvp.

    I like the "team" environment.

    With all the splash damage and aoe affects/attacks it would be almost impossible to achieve a decent plan of attack other than, "You go...I'll use my bow" kinda stuff.

    I just think it has HUGE drawbacks in an environment where you're so dependent on your teammate if in that environment.

    I like Dark Beading my teammates opponent in the forest when I get a chance and/or create enough space from my own opponent to help my bud out.

    I think friendly fire would almost ruin co-op and 2 vs 2.

    Just my 2 sense.
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    Re: Critical Hit Restrictions?

    Post by Soul of Stray Demon on Fri Jul 19, 2013 8:43 pm

    Lore reason is that whatever force allows the phantoms to be summoned, is also preventing them from harming their allies. Gwyndolin is able to keep his phantoms from making contact onto each other, as are Alvina and Kaathe.


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    Re: Critical Hit Restrictions?

    Post by BrotherBob on Fri Jul 19, 2013 9:27 pm

    @Animaaal: Certainly, you brought up some valid points, but you still have to admit that, when a Darkwraith and a Forest Hunter face a host and a summon, the invaders are at a distinct disadvantage. In terms of PvE, it would certainly make co-oping more difficult, although it could be argued that co-op, as it is, is too easy.

    I'm going to go out on a limb and say that if it makes people more prudent about using weapon AoE attacks, Dark Bead, and WotG, that's a good thing (it will discourage the spamming in PvP at the very least).

    @Soul of Stray Demon: Must be the same force that magically fixes all of the crates and barrels.

    While we're talking about friendly-fire, what about friendly-fire for enemies?


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    Re: Critical Hit Restrictions?

    Post by Animaaal on Fri Jul 19, 2013 9:33 pm

    I know, I don't like it that they are at a disadvantage, that's why I don't like the friendly fire idea, again just my opinion.

    And also, spamming will get you killed. Ima caster, I state that as fact.

    Lastly, imo, the thing that makes co-op so easy is the lack of soul level restrictions on weapons/upgrades. I hope that changes too.

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    Re: Critical Hit Restrictions?

    Post by BrotherBob on Fri Jul 19, 2013 10:00 pm

    Animaaal wrote:Lastly, imo, the thing that makes co-op so easy is the lack of soul level restrictions on weapons/upgrades.  I hope that changes too.
    I'm guilty of that. I like to hang out around the Undead Burg and SunBro, cosplaying Siegmeyer equipped with a Chaos Zwei +5 and a Lightning Pierce Shield +5. Solaire would be proud though.


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    Re: Critical Hit Restrictions?

    Post by Animaaal on Fri Jul 19, 2013 10:24 pm

    Lol.

    You HAVE to be guilty of that. I have a sl 11 decked out with everything but slabbing, and I feel like I let the host down every time we get invaded and I don't use my maxed out equipment.

    NO ONE, at least almost no one invades with level appropriate gear anymore. Its become common practice.

    Also, I'm not trying to be aggressive in my argument, I think we just might share a difference in preferred pvp.

    Obviously I love forest pvp (2 vs 2) and am not really considering how friendly fire could affect other aspects of the game.

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    Re: Critical Hit Restrictions?

    Post by BrotherBob on Fri Jul 19, 2013 10:56 pm

    Animaaal wrote:NO ONE, at least almost no one invades with level appropriate gear anymore.  Its become common practice.
    I started low-level invading in the Burg, but found that most of the people I invaded were upwards of SL100. In a way, low-level invaders (and phantoms, to fend off these invaders) in the Burg are justified in carrying upper-level equipment. I just like to run around the Burg as an invader and mess around by knocking people down with Force. Nowadays, when I co-op in the Burg, I try to have some fun by getting the Hollows to fight each other with Undead Rapport. It's always quite interesting to watch a fight between a Sword Hollow Soldier and a Spear Hollow Soldier.
    Animaaal wrote:Also, I'm not trying to be aggressive in my argument, I think we just might share a difference in preferred pvp.
    Of course, but that's one of the purposes of the Forums: to discuss these differences. People who read what we write can see these opposing viewpoints and the reasons behind them, and form their own, and I think that's really valuable.


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    Re: Critical Hit Restrictions?

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Sat Jul 20, 2013 1:36 am

    I just think it has HUGE drawbacks in an environment where you're so dependent on your teammate if in that environment.

    It's not like invaders wouldn't have the same limitation.

    More importantly, I've done 2v1 and 2v2 as a red tons in the forest, majority of times with 0 "friendly" fire damage at all.  I've even spaced off the host just right so that we could take turns smacking him each with a zwei, creating the kind of stunlock even a toggle isn't going to evade.  It takes more awareness but I'd take a 3rd party extra invader any day.

    Gwyndolin is able to keep his phantoms from making contact onto each other, as are Alvina and Kaathe.

    No, Kaathe definitely cares naught for infighting winking.  I trust other reds no more than I trust FH in the forest, and they're no less likely to take a swipe at me, especially after the host is dead.
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    Re: Critical Hit Restrictions?

    Post by Soul of Stray Demon on Sat Jul 20, 2013 4:49 pm

    Or it may just be Kaathe doesn't care enough either way, so he doesn't turn off his ability.

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    Re: Critical Hit Restrictions?

    Post by Forum Pirate on Sat Jul 20, 2013 6:39 pm

    you're aware that reds can (and do) hurt each other? Its only blues that can't attack other blues, and dms and dws can both invade members of their own cov.


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    Re: Critical Hit Restrictions?

    Post by Soul of Stray Demon on Sat Jul 20, 2013 10:19 pm

    Forum Pirate wrote:you're aware that reds can (and do) hurt each other? Its only blues that can't attack other blues, and dms and dws can both invade members of their own cov.

     Did not know that. I thought it was just that reds and blues that could hurt each other. And well, Gwyndolin may only care to protect while they are doing their job.

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    Re: Critical Hit Restrictions?

    Post by Shakie666 on Sat Jul 20, 2013 11:07 pm

    Maybe From should just introduce frontstabs. At least them people in DkS2 would have something new to moan about.
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    Re: Critical Hit Restrictions?

    Post by Sentiel on Sun Jul 21, 2013 4:11 am

    Shakie666 wrote:Maybe From should just introduce frontstabs. At least them people in DkS2 would have something new to moan about.
    We already have those.

    btw
    They added some sort of critical attack upon guard break, which can be called a front stab if you want.

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    Re: Critical Hit Restrictions?

    Post by Forum Pirate on Sun Jul 21, 2013 5:19 pm

    wether or not thats relivant to gameplay depends on if from got their act together balancing shield stamina loss though. As it stands, it wouldn't do anything, even were it in the (current gen) game now.


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    Re: Critical Hit Restrictions?

    Post by O1va_ on Mon Jul 22, 2013 4:51 pm

    LunarFog wrote: You're an ignorant little niggler if you think that the BS mechanic isn't broken.  Backstabs are COMPLETELY situational in concept and it should be the same in gameplay too.  They're supposed to be for people to have an advantage if they catch their opponent unaware, and to punish sloppy gameplay.  They aren't supposed to be the main core of combat.  And I HOPE you aren't going to try to argue that backstabs purpose is to have Dark Souls PvP revolve around it.

    I know this is kind of late to post, but I haven't been online for awhile and I find this insulting. I have never stated that BS purpose is to have PvP revolve around it. If you can't manage with the BS mechanic it doesn't make it broken, it makes you unable to deal with it.

    The friendly fire idea is propably the worst thing i've read in this thread. It's not even about criticals anymore, you want to wreck the whole co-oping. Why would an griefer even invade when he can be summoned to ruin the hosts day?

    It really sounds like many of you just should play some more PvP. Theres no need to nerf ganking, no need for invaders having no friendly fire and jolly co-invading. You should have hard time to defeat gankers, theres 2 or 3 of them, why should it be easy? If you can't deal with it, don't invade. Simple solution wihout wrecking other peoples games. I like invading the forest just the way it is now, if you don't like it, then don't invade there.

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    Re: Critical Hit Restrictions?

    Post by BrotherBob on Mon Jul 22, 2013 5:53 pm

    @O1va_: That is actually a very solid point for con-friendly-fire, that griefers could just pretend to be trying to help as summons but actually then kill the host. Since I'm pro-friendly-fire, I'd say that summons that kill the host would get +1 Sin or be de-leveled (similar to in DeS).

    Friendly-fire seems to be a topic that is adjacent to criticals. In Dark Souls 2, BS and ripostes appear to possibly be a process of hits rather than a single hit. Thus, it might be possible that they can be evaded and canceled by the victim or allies of the victim. Imagine that you are in the middle of backstabbing a host, but their summon comes over to try to cancel the backstab. As they swing, if friendly-fire is enabled, they will likely hit both the invader and the host. If it is disabled, they will just hit you and cancel the critical hit. The host will then turn around and proceed to attack you. How would you ever pull off a critical attack in that situation? Players who fight gankers often rely on backstabs and ripostes, but that may no longer be possible in Dark Souls 2. The issue is that you can't have PvP "the way it is now".


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    Re: Critical Hit Restrictions?

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:16 pm

    Summons should get nothing and/or just lose souls for killing the host.  Making them kill host as an invader has strong incentive already without making it griefer bait.  That said, friendly fire would make coop a little more challenging, where it currently trivializes the game quite a bit.  Competent play would avoid hitting each other anyway.  It isn't just about ganks, it would make co-op actually require some care too happy.


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    Re: Critical Hit Restrictions?

    Post by Derpwraith on Mon Jul 22, 2013 11:19 pm

    Why the hell is this still going on? Someone lock this piece of crap thread.


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    Re: Critical Hit Restrictions?

    Post by LunarFog on Mon Jul 22, 2013 11:31 pm

    O1va_ wrote:
    I know this is kind of late to post, but I haven't been online for awhile and I find this insulting. I have never stated that BS purpose is to have PvP revolve around it. If you can't manage with the BS mechanic it doesn't make it broken, it makes you unable to deal with it.

    The friendly fire idea is propably the worst thing i've read in this thread. It's not even about criticals anymore, you want to wreck the whole co-oping. Why would an griefer even invade when he can be summoned to ruin the hosts day?

    It really sounds like many of you just should play some more PvP. Theres no need to nerf ganking, no need for invaders having no friendly fire and jolly co-invading. You should have hard time to defeat gankers, theres 2 or 3 of them, why should it be easy? If you can't deal with it, don't invade. Simple solution wihout wrecking other peoples games. I like invading the forest just the way it is now, if you don't like it, then don't invade there.
    Haha.  You aren't even being serious anymore are you?  You might never have said it flat out but the fact is that you're saying BS is fine as it is, and as it is right now the PvP revolves around it.  I can deal with it fine.  I never lose and the majority of my kills are all from bs. 


    And why are you even talking about ganking in the first place?  This thread is about the BS problem.


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