influx of new players

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    Tolvo
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    Re: influx of new players

    Post by Tolvo on Sun Jun 02, 2013 1:01 am

    Sounds like exactly what I do, except I do this as a gravelord.

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    Re: influx of new players

    Post by Animaaal on Sun Jun 02, 2013 12:04 pm

    I seen an invader in the Burg last night at soul 3.

    The guy had full Havel's was slow walking and didn't have the stats to swing the Dragon Tooth.

    He keep pointing at us and slowly walking up towards us...when he swung his DT and "whiffed it"...I just started doing the joy gesture. He was even dropping stuff for the host, it was pretty cool.

    He wouldn't stop pressuring, and seeing as how we were on our way to the actual Havel...we attacked. He just kept bowing as we backstabbed him, cheered, backstabbed him, cheered, etcetetc.

    It was kinda cool and along these lines I suppose. Shrug
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    Re: influx of new players

    Post by Tolvo on Sun Jun 02, 2013 9:01 pm

    I always suggest using battle axes, or maces, weapons that if you miss will give the new player the chance to work with your mistake. It's a great way to teach them, it teaches them both the importance of dodging as well as offering them the chance to really take up an offense against you.
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    Re: influx of new players

    Post by wretchedsausage on Mon Jun 03, 2013 6:51 am

    http://soulswiki.forumsrpg.com/t22153-who-can-create-the-most-powerful-fair-low-level-build

    Hey Billy, did you see this thread that Reim made? Is anyone here interested about turning this into an event?


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    Re: influx of new players

    Post by Sentiel on Mon Jun 03, 2013 8:39 am

    I think that invading in low level locations, with low level gear to introduce new players to PvP is a great thing. Yes, they will get mad at you, same as they will get mad at a twink with maxed out gear. They get mad, because they lost and in some cases, because they're stupid and lack knowledge of even basic game mechanics.

    Also, lot of guys just buy Dark Souls and want to finish it, only so they can boast how they bested that infamously difficult game. After they stop getting raped by Asylum Demon, they start to think how awesome they are. Especially with enemies you meet in Burg. And then you invade them and prove them otherwise, with same gear as their even. It's a great lesson for them, but same as with kids and parents, it's a lesson that will make the child get mad at the parent. happy

    If they send you hatemail, politely reply to them. It may take them some time, but they will cool off and then you can try to explain to them some basic PvP, to prepare them for twinks and griefers. Then, you can return their hate with some slander, especially aimed at their mothers and obesity and block them afterwards. lol

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    Re: influx of new players

    Post by Halicarnassis on Mon Jun 03, 2013 8:58 am

    Mate, my fist invader got me in the burg. One-shotted me and invaded again. How I got the same guy twice is beyond me, but he did drop a +5 Longsword and a +5 Fire Leather Shield and we duelled with him using his fists! Needless to say I was gobsmacked, msg'd him thanks and sent him a friend request. Point is: if you make it fair for someone with the intention of helping them become and dont just go out with the intent to rip them to shreds then how can it be griefing?

    Apologies for showing my ignorance here but what is a Twink?


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    Re: influx of new players

    Post by Sentiel on Mon Jun 03, 2013 9:07 am

    Twink is a low level character, invading in low level locations with endgame gear and spells.

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    Re: influx of new players

    Post by Halicarnassis on Mon Jun 03, 2013 9:34 am

    Ah; cheers Sent!


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    Re: influx of new players

    Post by Walter_White on Mon Jun 03, 2013 9:43 am

    KrazykevS10 wrote:I'm thinking of making a troll build to poison them with dung pies and run off cackling like a madman.

    don't forgett your llyod's...it's pretty funny. And don't run away, punish for using moss from menu and for trying to estus while llyod


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    Re: influx of new players

    Post by WaffleGuy on Mon Jun 03, 2013 10:16 am

    I do this a lot. Instead of attacking me so they can either use Estus or the Bonfire, they keep their shield up. 1cm away from me. And when they have little hp left, they sloooowly back backwards. Then they turn. But not to run, no, casually walk. Stand still. Pause for 2 seconds. Then fail at using the Estus (because Lloyds).

    I've lost count of how many players do this. It's surreal :razz:

    Oh, and sometimes they say I'm a griefer for it. So for that character I just have the wanderer set on, unupgraded. They didn't take a single swing at me, so they don't know how much damage they'll do. I also don't attack them, so my weapons also couldn't be the cause of their untimely death. People say strange things when being pressured Look Skyward


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    Re: influx of new players

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Mon Jun 03, 2013 11:38 am

    The neutral griefing is when you make it fair to the other player. You try to give them the advantage, or try to fight them on even grounds. Such as only using +5 weapons or below in the Parish, where people normally have no embers at the time.

    Too many rules. If you don't cheat, you're good. You absolutely can get embers before even going into the gargoyle fight:


    • Divine (Very easy, summon beatrice and dodge a bit)
    • Large (signficantly harder, but can be done)
    • Very Large (probably not a newbie move, but anyone can do a run-by on the ghosts and snipe for the key to the seal)
    • Fire/Chaos (admittedly, no beginner will have these either since you'd have to kill Quelag first, which is very doable but nonsensical for a rookie to try)
    • Enchanted (also pretty easy like divine, considering you can just run and go get it)

    Note that you can also pick up crown of dusk, oolacile ivory catalyst, and up to GHSA which is enough to beat all of the early game bosses and some end game bosses, and the hydra isn't a particularly hard fight if you have enough arrows/bolts.


    Anyway I wouldn't worry about it. Do it until you get bored of it; this is a brutal game no matter what and people will learn the ropes if they want to play in online mode. Gargs are one of the easiest bosses to beat in offline mode since you can summon both Lautrec and Solaire and generally win simply by running around if you want.

    I was actually invaded here very early after I started playing. Knowing the invader would outclass me in equipment at least, I stood near the ledge and tried kicking him off. He killed me but the kick recoil pushed him off so I killed him too. I was very, very close to killing him without dying lol.
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    Re: influx of new players

    Post by Elifia on Mon Jun 03, 2013 12:00 pm

    TheMeInTeam wrote:Too many rules. If you don't cheat, you're good. You absolutely can get embers before even going into the gargoyle fight:

    The problem is, if you really want to give them a fair fight, you need to assume that it's their first playthrough and that they're not using any wiki or youtube video or whatever. So the kind of player you should prepare for is the player who went through upper undead burg and undead parish, and absolutely nothing else. These people often don't even have upgraded gear. Sometimes they have a Black Knight Sword though. There's also a bunch of them with Drake Swords, but I'm pretty confident someone told them how to get it.

    The only reason I even got the zweihander my first run was because I didn't notice the path to undead burg when I arrived in Firelink, and stubbornly fought my way through the skeletons in the graveyard, thinking this was par for the course because Dark Souls was supposed to be *** hard. Until I arrived in the catacombs and the skeletons just kept respawning, at which point I figured this probably wasn't the right path.


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    Re: influx of new players

    Post by Carphil on Mon Jun 03, 2013 12:24 pm

    I don't know about you guys but I have a feeling my first DKS2 invader will be a guy in Giants with Lightning Zweihander +15 in the depths.


    I'm not againt griefing, but I also don't like it. People should be able to fight back whatever tries to kill them at the proper area. I learned soon what was griefing, I was only able to fight back at Anor, after meeting the Giant Blacksmith and making a lightning +11. Back then, in patch 1.1 , we had a stupidly amount of powerful gear that could be acquired early, so its was not even glitchs fault.

    The Black Gold Hemmed gear had phisical defenses super high, like an unpgraded BK armor

    The crystal ring shield +5 used to do 1k damage easily

    Magic shield and TwOP used to last about 20 sec...

    I won't say that griefing helped me to learn Dark Souls faster, it was the other way around. I got lost and stuck in Btown without humanity or any items. But I would say that it made my first experience much harder

    Now, when I make a new toon, I always go human without summoning anyone, and keep parrying invaders for 50 hitpoints damage. I won't kill them, but I'll make them embarrased before dying/going to fog :razz:


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    Re: influx of new players

    Post by WaffleGuy on Mon Jun 03, 2013 12:29 pm

    Carphil wrote:...
    Now, when I make a new toon, I always go human without summoning anyone, and keep parrying invaders for 50 hitpoints damage. I won't kill them, but I'll make them embarrased before dying/going to fog :razz:

    Not a lot of things worse for a grieving invader to run for so long around the level, only to watch you waiting for him at the fog gate, then entering :razz:


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    Re: influx of new players

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Mon Jun 03, 2013 10:40 pm

    WaffleGuy wrote:
    Carphil wrote:...
    Now, when I make a new toon, I always go human without summoning anyone, and keep parrying invaders for 50 hitpoints damage. I won't kill them, but I'll make them embarrased before dying/going to fog

    Not a lot of things worse for a grieving invader to run for so long around the level, only to watch you waiting for him at the fog gate, then entering

    Haha indeed big grin. There are only a few bosses in this game where you can't simply run straight to them, making a griever chase very hard. This is true in gargoyls, Anor londo, depths, dukes ---> crystal cavern bonfire, catacombs, tomb of giants...heck most places other than sens and possibly lower blighttown itself.
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    Re: influx of new players

    Post by Odinbear on Tue Jun 04, 2013 9:22 am

    Everytime this griefing subject surfaces. It ALWAYS sounds to me like the BS Threads.

    Nobody ever sees that, whatever you wanna call it, IT IS part of the game. Let's look at it this way. A player is on NG and the invader is on NG++, both are sl30 in Undead Parish. The NG++ player is having a hard time getting souls and building up the soft humanity bank, cause we all know the ++ game is much harder, so he invades to get souls and humanity. Naturally he'll have end game gear, that's a given. He invades, kills 2 phantoms and a host. Sucks for them, but now the NG++ player has some souls and a humanity. It's really only the natural progression of the game and the nature of the Dark Souls universe to have overpowered players challenging/killing underpowered players. Remember the catch phrase, "PREPARE TO DIE."?

    If multitudes of players actually made it to NG+. And beyond, and continued to "play the game" the DkS world would be full of low level/high powered toons. Is it a consensus here that, once I go to NG+ and beyond that invading should be out of the question because it is unfair? Lol. Come on.
    Bottom line is that, I feel the game was designed this way and much thought went into the way it is played through the NG's. I don't believe FROM calls it griefing nor do they see that there is anything unfair going on. After all a sl10. Can beat a higher level toon and vice-versa. It's really all about, experience and skill.


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    Re: influx of new players

    Post by Sentiel on Tue Jun 04, 2013 9:27 am

    Prepare to die, not prepare to have no chance.
    Comparing a level 30 guy with endgame gear to a level 30 guy with legit gear is like having a adult fight a kid. No mattter what excuse you have, it's not fair.
    The only way to make the fight even is the location. If the said fight takes place in Kiln, then it is expected of them both to have endgame gear. If one of them doesn't, it's his own fault.
    However, if the fight takes place in Parish, then the endgame gear guy is simply put a douchebag and ruins the game for others, because they have no chance to win against him.

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    Re: influx of new players

    Post by Odinbear on Tue Jun 04, 2013 9:59 am

    Sentiel wrote:Prepare to die, not prepare to have no chance.
    Comparing a level 30 guy with endgame gear to a level 30 guy with legit gear is like having a adult fight a kid. No mattter what excuse you have, it's not fair.
    The only way to make the fight even is the location. If the said fight takes place in Kiln, then it is expected of them both to have endgame gear. If one of them doesn't, it's his own fault.
    However, if the fight takes place in Parish, then the endgame gear guy is simply put a douchebag and ruins the game for others, because they have no chance to win against him.

    So, anybody in NG+ and higher are douchebags if they invade? Hmmmm . By your definition, NG+ players are Not supposed to invade? Haha, u funny. Now don't get upset when i re-iterate, his game has no rules. And as players progress through the NG's the range of same soul leveled players will be quite varied in each area. I think it's a brilliant design for a game.

    I was invaded and killed in the early areas and my games have never been ruined. Yes I died. Did not get mad or quit. In fact, I'd say, it made me more determined to keep going.


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    Re: influx of new players

    Post by Sentiel on Tue Jun 04, 2013 10:03 am

    Since you quoted me, you should read what I wrote again. I already answered your reply in my previous message, because I was anticipating it.

    Also, do not misinterpret my words into whatever fashion you seem to like. They were intended as I wrote them, not in any other way.

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    Re: influx of new players

    Post by Tolvo on Tue Jun 04, 2013 10:15 am

    To be fair, Sent didn't say there were rules. He said it was unfair, and douchebag behavior.

    If you don't care about people's feelings, or whether something is fair then both of you seem to agree.
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    Re: influx of new players

    Post by Sentiel on Tue Jun 04, 2013 10:20 am

    Thank you Tolvo.

    Now I must ask.
    WTF is that in your avatar?
    You turning into a communist, or do you just like to dual wield Shotel and Hammer?

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    Re: influx of new players

    Post by Tolvo on Tue Jun 04, 2013 10:23 am

    It was a joke, I was doing a little Blitzkrieg against Serious in posting count, so as a joke I used a soviet avatar.

    Also I should mention, I find that unfair battles teach the loser nothing and the possibility of them occurring are inherent flaws in the system, and are simply poor design choices. When you can't reasonably do something there is no reason for you to even try.

    Dark Souls is obviously not rogue-like in nature, so unfair fights should not exist. But they do, and it's a flaw in the system. It's a pretty good system, but that is still a flaw no doubt.
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    Re: influx of new players

    Post by Sentiel on Tue Jun 04, 2013 10:38 am

    Tolvo wrote:It was a joke, I was doing a little Blitzkrieg against Serious in posting count, so as a joke I used a soviet avatar.

    Also I should mention, I find that unfair battles teach the loser nothing and the possibility of them occurring are inherent flaws in the system, and are simply poor design choices. When you can't reasonably do something there is no reason for you to even try.

    Dark Souls is obviously not rogue-like in nature, so unfair fights should not exist. But they do, and it's a flaw in the system. It's a pretty good system, but that is still a flaw no doubt.
    I'm not even gonna ask, but I bet it's hilarious.

    If the game encouraged unfair fights, there would be no need for level restrictions when connecting players.
    Yes, you can invade a player with much higher level, but it seems a approperiate risk when you're invading, which also has great rewards, should you overcome it.
    Also, higher level players can invade you as Spirits of Vengeance, but for them to do so, you would need a lot of Sin, which means that you're very experienced in PvP and thus the game allows this fight, even with vastly different levels.

    Even with this, a "normal" low level player has no chance of being invaded by someone who has vastly higher level. He can only be invaded by players with similar level. If the said player managed to complete the game and bring the fruits of his endeavor to low level areas and use these said rewards, endgame gear, to crush other players, who have no chance against him, I feel it fitting, to call such a person a douchebag. I would actually use a different word, but it got censored.

    The fact that the game allows it is a flaw in the system, however that is discutable, because the flaw exists. Even so, the ability to get endgame gear on low level does not justify it's usage against players who have no means of obtaining the said items, nor means to defend against them for that matter.

    It could be fixed by not allowing players from NG+ to invade players still in NG. Just like Gravelording.
    With BB glitch gone, the amount of people doing this would be severely lowered imo.

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    Re: influx of new players

    Post by Tolvo on Tue Jun 04, 2013 10:42 am

    As I said, it's an inherent flaw.

    People could just stay in NG and not kill Gwyn, they'd still have end game gear and could invade low levels if they didn't level up.

    You could easily block tons of people from playing with each other.

    There would need to be both common SL ranges for PvP and Co-Op, but also a common NG+ to be on for it.

    There's no real way to get it perfect with the current technology, you'd basically need these factors.

    Soul Level, gear's power. Soul Level is simple, gear's power is a nightmare of programming which we probably won't see in many years, due to the variables that can make a build powerful or weak.

    It's a good system and I like it, it just has flaws.
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    Re: influx of new players

    Post by Sentiel on Tue Jun 04, 2013 10:48 am

    Tolvo wrote:As I said, it's an inherent flaw.

    People could just stay in NG and not kill Gwyn, they'd still have end game gear and could invade low levels if they didn't level up.

    You could easily block tons of people from playing with each other.

    There would need to be both common SL ranges for PvP and Co-Op, but also a common NG+ to be on for it.

    There's no real way to get it perfect with the current technology, you'd basically need these factors.

    Soul Level, gear's power. Soul Level is simple, gear's power is a nightmare of programming which we probably won't see in many years, due to the variables that can make a build powerful or weak.

    It's a good system and I like it, it just has flaws.
    Yes, but there's only a handful of people capable of killing Gwyn on SL lower than 11 etc.

    No, all would remain the same. Only players on NG+ could not invade players with no online Sin on NG. I see nothing wrong with this.

    After NG+ the number of times the game has been cleared would not matter. It would only lock NG+ and further people from NG.

    Yes, most games don't bother with this.

    It could be done perhaps by detecting upgrade levels of all items in the players current possession, but it would be very troublesome.


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