Backstabs and WoG

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    Backstabs and WoG

    Post by Dark Souls PRO on Tue Jul 10, 2012 6:44 am

    So as a few people would know I despise backstabs in PvP.
    I invaded a certain individual 4 times.
    First time was a 1v1 and I won.
    Second time was a 2v1 and I won.
    Third time he backstabbed for half hp, but he had 1 hit left so I ended him.
    Fourth time around I was still angry for that backstab, I take him down to 1 quarter hp left then he backstabs me again for half hp (BTW he was fishing if you care to know), so I was enraged to the point of using my last resort, I use this when fighting backstab gankers, I changed to my talisman and rolled a bit to warn him of my rage, he starts sprinting and I cast WoG once it hits him and he dies.
    He then sends me a message saying killing people by WoG means it's a draw.
    I reply backstabbing me means I won the battle and all battles from then because you know you know you had to resort to being cheap to win.
    What are your guys takes on this?


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    Re: Backstabs and WoG

    Post by Forum Pirate on Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:03 am

    That you're both being ridiculous. Not in a good way.

    Edit: to clarify, the guy whos avatar was alive at the end won. Thats the bottom line. How is irrelevant.


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    Re: Backstabs and WoG

    Post by Federally on Tue Jul 10, 2012 8:20 am

    PvP is based on who can land. BS and who can avoid one. It's just how things work, no matter how much I dislike it getting annoyed about it isn't gonna do you any good.


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    Re: Backstabs and WoG

    Post by Hahalo on Tue Jul 10, 2012 9:24 am

    Lesson 1 to PVP is about avoiding Backstab. I know you hate it, but you have to take up the courage to face it.

    Backstab is a standard in PVP.

    Honestly, backstab rarely happen in the top pvp'er, its because we don't give that opportunity to be backstab.

    PS: I think winning with either BS or WOG is fair game. And don't get provoke with hate mails... i got alot of them, I never bother reading it. Makes you a happier player.
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    Re: Backstabs and WoG

    Post by Dark Souls PRO on Tue Jul 10, 2012 9:28 am

    Hahalo wrote:Lesson 1 to PVP is about avoiding Backstab. I know you hate it, but you have to take up the courage to face it.

    Backstab is a standard in PVP.

    Honestly, backstab rarely happen in the top pvp'er, its because we don't give that opportunity to be backstab.
    I live in Australia on my screen I avoid every hit but that's not the case because lag exists.
    I avoid the backstab to see me character after rolling twice teleport back to the same spot being backstabbed. I hate it because of my lag when I avoid it it's not the case, that is why I don't do it to others because it is cheap in the way that lag supports the backstabber.


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    Re: Backstabs and WoG

    Post by lextune on Tue Jul 10, 2012 9:32 am

    My two cents: I find BS far more "cheap" than WoG.

    Both can be avoided of course, but wrath is infinitely easier. There is only on WoG move and you can simple roll through it. There are what? Half a dozen different BS "methods".....


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    Re: Backstabs and WoG

    Post by DamageCK on Tue Jul 10, 2012 9:34 am

    As annoyed as I am by losing a good fight to a clutch rapier BS, it's totally legit. If you don't give them an opportunity to BS you, you don't get BSed. Period.


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    Re: Backstabs and WoG

    Post by ZikoLogiKa NL on Tue Jul 10, 2012 9:37 am

    He then sends me a message saying killing people by WoG means it's a draw.

    haha really ?

    This is just ridiculous , he was just a random , plus people who are sending out messages justifying their loss are just behaving childish. tongue


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    Re: Backstabs and WoG

    Post by WyrmHero on Tue Jul 10, 2012 12:35 pm

    Believe it or not, the random "community" of noob PvPers despise WoG more than anything in this game. Maybe it's youtube, but they really don't have the enough experience to dodge a WoG. I'm telling you because the same happened to me with one player who sent me a hatemail, I somehow invited him to a duel. He was in his first days of PvP.


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    Re: Backstabs and WoG

    Post by sinisterapathy on Tue Jul 10, 2012 2:02 pm

    There is nothing wrong with WoG. Its so easy to dodge. He got hit so he deserved to lose.

    I find bs harder to avoid though i have gotten better at it. I get BS in a 1v1 as rarely as i get hit with WoG now.

    I dont now why someone voted you down but i didnt think you deserved it so i voted you up to even it out.

    Anyways if you ever get sent "fan"mail such as this it just means you won.
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    Re: Backstabs and WoG

    Post by Dark Souls PRO on Tue Jul 10, 2012 2:19 pm

    Thanks Sinister.
    It's just that people make it out that backstabs are "easy" to dodge. Yet as I have stated I have lag where they don't, even if I do escape from the said backstab it doesn't really happen because the connection says I'm still in that spot.
    I can't possibly find the one in game mechanic that supports the stabber and not the one being stabbed as fair. here is example using emotes Me= sad, enemy= twisted, Rolls away= .

    My television: twisted___ sad = sad twisted

    In reality: twisted__ sad = sad twisted


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    Re: Backstabs and WoG

    Post by mrbeckham87 on Tue Jul 10, 2012 4:09 pm

    I find WoG "Spamming" cheaper. BS and Just using WoG is part of the game and is a good tactic if you can land "one".


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    Re: Backstabs and WoG

    Post by johnnyjwa on Tue Jul 10, 2012 4:19 pm

    Wog does not bother me but backstabs do. If I had a nickel for every time I am having an awesome fight with someone only for them to end it with a backstab Id be rich. It always gets me because these opponents are making no efforts to backstab me for the entire fight then they just do It out of nowhere and I'm not expecting it. It also annoys me when I face an opponent I have beat many times before so they decide to just fish for backstabs instead of fighting me normally like our previous matches. Fighting backstabers is incredibly annoying and makes for some REALLY boring fights.

    Oh and people who bow then backstab me with a hornet ring zwei also piss me off.


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    Re: Backstabs and WoG

    Post by Forum Pirate on Tue Jul 10, 2012 5:56 pm

    johnnyjwa wrote:Wog does not bother me but backstabs do. If I had a nickel for every time I am having an awesome fight with someone only for them to end it with a backstab Id be rich. It always gets me because these opponents are making no efforts to backstab me for the entire fight then they just do It out of nowhere and I'm not expecting it. It also annoys me when I face an opponent I have beat many times before so they decide to just fish for backstabs instead of fighting me normally like our previous matches. Fighting backstabers is incredibly annoying and makes for some REALLY boring fights.

    Oh and people who bow then backstab me with a hornet ring zwei also piss me off.
    Ha, thats called being conditioning, and it's one of the better tactics. You dropped your guard, its your fault.


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    Re: Backstabs and WoG

    Post by Fotitudo on Tue Jul 10, 2012 5:58 pm

    So today i got some Undead Burg Action. All is fine, exept ive fought a Ganker and a Hacker ... hope they burn in hell.
    But then, ive Summoned a Red Phantom with the BKGA, and another BKGA user invaded me.
    The first one hit me with couple swings, (bs misses) and keep circling around. So a BS fisher, ive got a easy counter bs on him, and then the other invader attacked me with a bow.
    He stands up and keep circling, so counter bs to death.
    At this moment i was really pissed, because the other one interupt me, with his supid arrow.
    So i healed, and the 2nd one comes down to me, and guess what? Keep circling... 1 counter bs and 1 Great combustion, fight was finished.

    After some battles, i saw the summon sign from my BKGA-Bow Buddy, i summoned him. i waved to say hello. And i get an Arrow in my face ... along with this, it was laggy as hell. So i decided, to kill him as fast as i can. And i dont wanna die against, such an *****. = GC-Spam for this Kiddy, he cant dodge even one! Oo
    So he was dead and he send me an hate-message.

    Ive told him, dont shoot me in the face while im waving and this isnt Call of Duty, and he should stop send me hate messages.

    Was a dirty win, but some people deserve it!


    Im just telling this, because its make me angry. Im always a friendly guy, and send a Message like "GG was close" - "GG next time ill get you winking".

    Another point, normally ive got no problems dodging a WotG, but today... it hits me in my jump/dodge animation ... This is just unlucky ... :/

    @ Backstabs:
    Hell lern to avoid it! It isnt as hard, as it sounds!
    I rarely get backstabbed, an another point is a lagstab, but its lag and we have to life with it. Just unlucky ..
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    Re: Backstabs and WoG

    Post by johnnyjwa on Tue Jul 10, 2012 8:20 pm

    Forum Pirate wrote:
    johnnyjwa wrote:Wog does not bother me but backstabs do. If I had a nickel for every time I am having an awesome fight with someone only for them to end it with a backstab Id be rich. It always gets me because these opponents are making no efforts to backstab me for the entire fight then they just do It out of nowhere and I'm not expecting it. It also annoys me when I face an opponent I have beat many times before so they decide to just fish for backstabs instead of fighting me normally like our previous matches. Fighting backstabers is incredibly annoying and makes for some REALLY boring fights.

    Oh and people who bow then backstab me with a hornet ring zwei also piss me off.
    Ha, thats called being conditioning, and it's one of the better tactics. You dropped your guard, its your fault.

    What do you mean "being conditioning"? And when I say backstabs I dont mean I opened myself up for one. I mean they poise through my hit and bs me because it's a close fight.


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    Re: Backstabs and WoG

    Post by Forum Pirate on Tue Jul 10, 2012 9:21 pm

    I ment conditioning or being conditioned. You have to have had your guard down for a poise stab to work, so he fought without trying for a while. It was close, and you were overly aggressive or unconcerned with the possibility of a back stab, so he took the opening.

    Basicly, you got sloppy.


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    Re: Backstabs and WoG

    Post by DamageCK on Tue Jul 10, 2012 9:36 pm

    It was more of a psychological strategy. And a good one at that. It's the same reason I typically don't throw out more than one or two parries in a fight. You wont get BS or kick punished nearly as often, if ever. If you're conditioned to believe the player behaves in a certain way, when they break the pattern you'll be less prepared for it.


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    Re: Backstabs and WoG

    Post by Forum Pirate on Tue Jul 10, 2012 9:41 pm

    Exactly, it not "I'm going to bs him because its the only way I can win," it's "He's probably not expecting an attempt, so I'll try now because it will probably work."


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    Re: Backstabs and WoG

    Post by Carphil on Tue Jul 10, 2012 10:01 pm

    Lol you live in australia and are complaining about lag



    You would never come to brazil


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    Re: Backstabs and WoG

    Post by johnnyjwa on Tue Jul 10, 2012 10:06 pm

    Forum Pirate wrote:Exactly, it not "I'm going to bs him because its the only way I can win," it's "He's probably not expecting an attempt, so I'll try now because it will probably work."


    Your spot on with the "He's probably not expecting an attempt, so I'll try now because it will probably work.". It gets me all the time when I'm fighting people who bow to me because I dont expect a backstab from them. Even through I prob should expect backstabs from everyone. But I do think if you bow you shouldn't backstab at all unless I do some sloppy jumping attack and pretty much ask for it. But I understand your point and you are right.


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    Re: Backstabs and WoG

    Post by Forum Pirate on Tue Jul 10, 2012 10:27 pm

    Its playing to win, handicaps like no twop or no backstabs are counter intuitive.

    http://www.sirlin.net/articles/playing-to-win-part-1.html

    That article explains it well.

    This article expands on it somewhat, a lot of it is remedial to experienced players, but its a good read anyways.
    http://soulswiki.forumsrpg.com/t7925-an-introduction-to-dark-souls-pvp-v05


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    Re: Backstabs and WoG

    Post by WyrmHero on Tue Jul 10, 2012 10:32 pm

    I think you have not experienced Burg dueling. I get a bow all the time, and everyone does a backstab. Bowing does not mean "no backstabs", it's a sign that in the fight neither will heal nor chain backstab (sometimes they do it but I find it highly dishonorable and cheap). I get roll backstabbed all the time, but it's a legit tactic that it's part of the duel. You should check FC if you despise backstabs in general, it's very fun.


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    Re: Backstabs and WoG

    Post by DamageCK on Tue Jul 10, 2012 10:38 pm

    In my experience, bowing is just what you do before a fight. Some people any way. It's not really an indicator of how people are going to play, which is why I prepare myself for anything. Bowing is just sort of a trend that a lot of people picked up on.


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    Re: Backstabs and WoG

    Post by johnnyjwa on Tue Jul 10, 2012 11:25 pm

    Ok so I read the first article and it was a pretty good read. A lot pertained to fighting games but it can apply to Dark Souls too.

    Sirlin states, "The first step in becoming a top player is the realization that playing to win means doing whatever most increases your chances of winning. The game knows no rules of "honor" or of "cheapness." The game only knows winning and losing.". So if I want to play to win I should just summon two phantoms, use all 20 of my flasks if needed, and try to backstab my opponent with a hornet ring? I understand what he is saying but I think a line should be drawn somewhere to preserve some sort of fun in the game. Don't get me wrong I love 3v1s but if all I'm getting are 3v1s it gets old and that's when I start to get angry.

    Now about fun... He says, "A common call of the scrub is to cry that the kind of play in which ones tries to win at all costs is "boring" or "not fun.". Maybe I'm just not a hardcore enough gamer and the people who use so called "cheap tactics" are and are simply playing to win. But if I fight someone who does nothing but fishes for backstabs all the time I do not find it fun. It also bothers me that according to this article this backstab fisher is simply a good player who understands that backstabbing, if you are good at it, is a very powerful strategy. I have also seen a video of two guys in the forest where one stands to the side while the other bows to the invader. Right as the invader bows back the host runs behind him and backstabs him usually for an insta kill. According to the article this is simply utilizing game mechanics to do whatever it takes to win. I don't like to think of these types of players as players who "play to win", I think of them as trolls.

    The article is mainly centered around fighting games so it does not fully apply to Dark Souls but it is a good read overall and the author makes some good points. Basically what I got out of it is there are two kinds of players, ones who will do anything it takes to win, and those who play to have fun. I fit in the play to have fun category, which is why I get angry when someone breaks my made up standards I follow to have fun. For me I'd say I need to learn how to recognize a cutthroat play to win player and those who want to have fun.


    Sorry for the Wall O' Text =)



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