Do some glitches add depth ?

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    Do some glitches add depth ?

    Post by robsthedon on Sun Jul 07, 2013 8:25 am

    I missed the dead angling thread yesterday (the one that got locked), thought it was quite interesting.

    I never really thought about it being a glitch before, tbh it's never really been a problem for me, as I rarely block, but now I think about, I guess it is a glitch of sorts, but I think it adds depth to the game, the same as toggle escapes add depth. If someone dead angles me or toggles that's fine.

    The same could be said about blessings/mushrooms to a degree, they are in the game but having a lot is slightly dubious for sure and could be considered a game breaker, unless both have them I guess, also it's not impossible to beat a blessing popper.

    Obviously TWoD and moveset swapping are game breakers.

    Roll weapon swapping ? I have never seen this so can not comment.

    Btw 5 mushrooms per playthru you get 3 from Elizabeth rite ?

    Just wanted to give my opinion for what it's worth


    Last edited by robsthedon on Sun Jul 07, 2013 8:27 am; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: Do some glitches add depth ?

    Post by Saturday-Saint on Sun Jul 07, 2013 8:26 am

    Yes, of course.


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    Re: Do some glitches add depth ?

    Post by omgoff on Sun Jul 07, 2013 8:28 am

    TWoD? Did you mean TWoP?

    As for dead angling, I think it adds depth. It allows me to wreck bs fishers with my claymore winking
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    Re: Do some glitches add depth ?

    Post by Saturday-Saint on Sun Jul 07, 2013 8:31 am

    TWoD stands for Tranquil Walk of Death, a glitch that turns TWoP's aura of slows-you-down into an aura of kills-you-instantly.


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    Re: Do some glitches add depth ?

    Post by omgoff on Sun Jul 07, 2013 8:32 am

    Ah, thanks for the elucidation. I'm not sure I've ever experienced this glitch myself.
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    Re: Do some glitches add depth ?

    Post by Saturday-Saint on Sun Jul 07, 2013 8:36 am

    I have not run into anybody using it in over a year-and-a-half, myself. This is surprising to me, because it is a relatively well known glitch.


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    Re: Do some glitches add depth ?

    Post by Serious_Much on Sun Jul 07, 2013 8:38 am

    Considering the way a glitch works is to make something easier or to do something that allows you to skip levels or have all equipment when you begin your playthrough.. To me glitches cannot add depth, they only take it away.

    Dead angle means blocking is taken away. Toggle escape means stunlock is taken away. Those two are usually quoted as acceptable (though they may be considered exploits, but amount to the same end result of taking the game from it's intended path by the devs). 

    Every glitch will have something that takes the fall for it. I'm just glad the bad ones that do stuff like take away the need of PvE are kept to a minimum and mostly gone now.


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    Re: Do some glitches add depth ?

    Post by Sentiel on Sun Jul 07, 2013 8:41 am

    To clarify a little.

    You get 3 Mushrooms from Elizabeth after you beat Manus, or if you kill Elizabeth, she should drop them (not sure, never done it myself). You can also find 1 Mushroom in Royal Wood. That makes it 4 per NG.

    TWoD stands for notorious glitch, called Tranquil Walk of Death. It was done by *you dont need to know* . This created a field around the user with around 15 meter radius that did constant damage (300-400 per second I think) to anything that got into that field + it had Tranquil Walk of Peace slow down effect as well.

    Back to Dead Angles. Rob, there already is another thread where the OP is asking about DA being a glitch, or no.
    http://soulswiki.forumsrpg.com/t23084-is-dead-angling-a-glitch

    I block a lot. Not ashamed to admit it. The shield is just for that. While evasion is a much better option, sometimes, the lag screws things up in ways one would not believe and that's why I rather rely on blocking. Be it with shield, or my weapon doesn't matter.

    My problem with Dead Angles isn't the fact it bypasses shields block. You can always evade the attack if you want and I kind of do understand that some people just can't play and have to resort to this glitch to defeat turtles. What grinds my gears about it, is that ignores parrying. Basically, if you use a DA, your opponent has no other option than to evade. He can't block it, nor parry it. If I could at least parry Dead Angles, the same way you can parry normal attacks, I would have no problem with them. Since you're forced to evade them, they're in a sense just like TWoD, because you were also forced to evade it.


    Last edited by Sentiel on Sun Jul 07, 2013 8:46 am; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: Do some glitches add depth ?

    Post by Saturday-Saint on Sun Jul 07, 2013 8:45 am

    Removing a piece of the game does not necessarily remove depth. For an extreme hypothetical example let's say that the developers included an instant-win button. Whoever presses the button first wins. Now let's say that somebody found a glitch that disables that button. That glitch would objectively improve the game.


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    Re: Do some glitches add depth ?

    Post by robsthedon on Sun Jul 07, 2013 8:52 am

    @ senty I see what you are saying about the parrying, but are you saying don't play unlocked ?


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    Re: Do some glitches add depth ?

    Post by Serious_Much on Sun Jul 07, 2013 8:55 am

    Saturday-Saint wrote:Removing a piece of the game does not necessarily remove depth.  For an extreme hypothetical example let's say that the developers included an instant-win button.  Whoever presses the button first wins.  Now let's say that somebody found a glitch that disables that button.  That glitch would objectively improve the game.

     To be perfectly honest sat I don't believe argument ad absurdum belongs in this discussion.

    If there was an instant win button, that would simply be the developers self limiting the depth of their own game- totally irrational, implausible and most importantly- impossible. It's a point that doesn't really hold water


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    Re: Do some glitches add depth ?

    Post by Sentiel on Sun Jul 07, 2013 8:59 am

    robsthedon wrote:@ senty I see what you are saying about the parrying, but are you saying don't play unlocked ?
    Not at all. I also play unlocked, because it's the only way a Str weapon user can defend against roll backstabs. Or any slow swing speed weapon user for that matter.

    However, if Dead Angles were removed, playing unlocked would be just a good counter against roll bs, but could still be blocked and parried. As it is now, people counter roll bs, parrying and blocking at the same time with one move. That seems quite OP to me. This applies to GoW, Force and Dragon Roar as well.

    On the other hand, if Dead Angles got removed, Toggle Escape whould get removed as well. TE is a good counter when you get hit and stuncloked by a DA Str weapon swings. Quite typical for Zwei and Mura users.

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    Re: Do some glitches add depth ?

    Post by XachAttack on Sun Jul 07, 2013 9:40 am

    You actually can block DA's Sent, you just need to turn around when they do. I've done it before and I've seen others do it too. Idk about parrying them, but I'd imagine it would work the same way.

     

    Edit: Lol, 666'th post XD.


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    Re: Do some glitches add depth ?

    Post by Sentiel on Sun Jul 07, 2013 9:43 am

    Turning my back to my opponent to block an attack coming from the front.
    Do you see any logic in that? Cos I don't.
    Not to mention that it's asking for a backstab.

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    Re: Do some glitches add depth ?

    Post by Saturday-Saint on Sun Jul 07, 2013 9:44 am

    XachAttack wrote:You actually can block DA's Sent, you just need to turn around when they do. I've done it before and I've seen others do it too. Idk about parrying them, but I'd imagine it would work the same way.

     

    Edit: Lol, 666'th post XD.
    You need to parry weapons within a certain area of their hitbox. Trying to parry a DA would most likely result in a partial, similar to how parrying the tip of a weapon will never work no matter how you time it.


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    Re: Do some glitches add depth ?

    Post by Sentiel on Sun Jul 07, 2013 9:58 am

    Saturday-Saint wrote:
    XachAttack wrote:You actually can block DA's Sent, you just need to turn around when they do. I've done it before and I've seen others do it too. Idk about parrying them, but I'd imagine it would work the same way.

     

    Edit: Lol, 666'th post XD.
    You need to parry weapons within a certain area of their hitbox.  Trying to parry a DA would most likely result in a partial, similar to how parrying the tip of a weapon will never work no matter how you time it.
    I think that Forum Pirate said that parrying Dead Angles is impossible. He usualy knows what he's talking about and I certainly don't wish to try this method, nor use it. Mostly because turning my back to my opponent is silly and just asks for a bs. I do the same.

    Whenever most people I fight try to do a Raviolli Step, or Reverse Roll, or play completely unlocked, they usually end up with their back facing my sword and just jump on it willingly. Same with using 180 DA very close to me. However that DA case doesn't do anything as they cancel out each other.

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    Re: Do some glitches add depth ?

    Post by Leet on Sun Jul 07, 2013 12:27 pm

    Without dead angles, it would be nearly impossible to use big weapons to a degree we can use other weapons. When i first got the game and started PVPing, i quit using big weapons because i just got parried over and over again. So obviously i switched to katanas and that became my favorite weapons class.

    After discovering dead angles, it made it possible for me to use big weapons. Not just me but everyone. Dead angles make up for the slow swing speed and the small amount of skill it takes to parry big weapons. 

    By that reasoning, it might be possible FROM intentionally put dead angles in the game on purpose (i might be wrong, probably, but i wouldn't put it past them.)

    On another note, you can see when someone is trying to dead angle. It's clear as day. In some cases that isn't true, and by some, i mean very little. If you're getting stunlocked, you can toggle escape. There's always a way around these things. Without dead angles, big weapons wouldn't be used. And if someone used big weapons, without toggle escape, you would just be stunlocked to death, every single match. For every glitch there's a way around it. Which is why i think maybe From knew what they were doing.

    I don't block anyway. I don't remember the last time i used a medium shield.

    Glitches are in the game and they're here to stay. If you don't use these glitches, you'll get pounded. Survival of the fittest.

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    Re: Do some glitches add depth ?

    Post by sparkly-twinkly-lizard on Sun Jul 07, 2013 2:21 pm

    DA and toggle escape have been around since demons souls, and honestly if From wanted to remove them, they probably could have, thus I have no compunction about using them. 

    also senti, this is my opinion but I think its silly that a half pound piece of leather can deflect a 24 pound sword, you'd break your wrist and then lose your arm.


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    Re: Do some glitches add depth ?

    Post by Sentiel on Sun Jul 07, 2013 2:47 pm

    sparkly-twinkly-lizard wrote:DA and toggle escape have been around since demons souls, and honestly if From wanted to remove them, they probably could have, thus I have no compunction about using them. 

    also senti, this is my opinion but I think its silly that a half pound piece of leather can deflect a 24 pound sword, you'd break your wrist and then lose your arm.
    Just like we can parry Smough's Hammer bare handed.
    Just like you can backstab someone with a Dagger through Havel's Shield on the persons back.

    There's a lot of things that look silly in Souls games.

    I think that From doesn't bother with anything that doesn't affect PvE. For example, all the glitches they removed so far affected PvE in one way, or another. However since Dead Angles doesn't work in PvE, they leave them alone. And to make the glitch less of a problem, they also leave Toggle Escape alone. Which is also useless in PvE, as there are not many situations where you can get stunlocked by mobs and to be honest, if you do manage to get into such a situation, you kinda deserve to die. Such things don't happen until you do something super reckless.

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    Re: Do some glitches add depth ?

    Post by robsthedon on Sun Jul 07, 2013 3:43 pm

    sparkly-twinkly-lizard wrote:

    also senti, this is my opinion but I think its silly that a half pound piece of leather can deflect a 24 pound sword, you'd break your wrist and then lose your arm.


    big grin


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    Re: Do some glitches add depth ?

    Post by Animaaal on Sun Jul 07, 2013 3:49 pm

    Sentiel wrote:...I think that From doesn't bother with anything that doesn't affect PvE. For example, all the glitches they removed so far affected PvE in one way, or another. However since  Dead Angles doesn't work in PvE, they leave them alone. And to make the glitch less of a problem, they also leave Toggle Escape alone. Which is also useless in PvE, as there are not many situations where you can get stunlocked by mobs and to be honest, if you do manage to get into such a situation, you kinda deserve to die. Such things don't happen until you do something super reckless....

    FROM has patched things that are pvp related for sure, and also, you can dead angle in pve, or at least the enemies can. I've even had some spear its on NPCs that looked like they were dead angles.
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    Re: Do some glitches add depth ?

    Post by Sentiel on Sun Jul 07, 2013 4:14 pm

    Animaaal wrote:FROM has patched things that are pvp related for sure, and also, you can dead angle in pve, or at least the enemies can.  I've even had some spear its on NPCs that looked like they were dead angles.
    Alright, please name one thing that was completely PvE unrelated that has been patched.

    I tried to DA shield and spear Hollows in Burg with Zwei+0 and they blocked even 180° DA.Shrug 

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    Re: Do some glitches add depth ?

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Sun Jul 07, 2013 4:28 pm

    You need to parry weapons within a certain area of their hitbox. Trying to parry a DA would most likely result in a partial, similar to how parrying the tip of a weapon will never work no matter how you time it.

    From a realistic standpoint, parrying an attack that is sweeping at an angle and isn't connecting with anything near the wielder's swing base is every bit as absurd as the attack hitting through shields in the first place.  The core limitation here is the game's engine making the shield necessarily block ALL frontal attacks, as opposed to merely being active where there is physically a shield.  I can't think of a good design way around that limitation though.

    Backstabs and most other issues in the game in PvP can be traced directly back to lag.  I don't mind someone punishing a slow str weapon attack with a backstab, but I have a serious issue with people warping back there, with my "timing" being off due to them appearing physically too far away on my screen until they enter the BS animation.

    IMO the game would be better off without either of the glitches, IE no toggle-escapes and no dead-angles.  However, without dead angles it is nearly impossible for big weapons to do anything at all to turtles, due to how trivial it is to parry.  Ideally a blunt weapon or a huge one should drain a LOT of stamina off blocks, but in practice it doesn't, and there's no way to use skill to hit "around" a shield of someone who simply blocks and faces you...and upgraded shields don't lose out stamina on blocking significantly more than the attacks that hit them.  The risk/reward prospect of turtling/parry fishing would go through the roof if you could block knowing that your opponent is risking a ~1000 damage riposte on every attack.

    Glitches do not necessarily remove depth, just as they don't necessarily add it.  You'd have to look at how the game plays in both cases, something we can't do right now.  Being unable to dead-angle would certainly cause a significant metagame shift, and stamina recovery might have to be nerfed to compensate.  We might see more shotels too lol.

    There's a lot of things that look silly in Souls games.

    I don't think anything beats a DBS backstab in Demon's Souls big grin.  When you think about the physics of the force required to make THAT happen, you start to realize that the thing must have been fired out of a modern cannon, not held in someone's hands lol.  It looked so ridiculous I was always amused.

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    Re: Do some glitches add depth ?

    Post by Animaaal on Sun Jul 07, 2013 4:40 pm

    Sentiel wrote:
    Animaaal wrote:FROM has patched things that are pvp related for sure, and also, you can dead angle in pve, or at least the enemies can.  I've even had some spear its on NPCs that looked like they were dead angles.
    Alright, please name one thing that was completely PvE unrelated that has been patched.

    I tried to DA shield and spear Hollows in Burg with Zwei+0 and they blocked even 180° DA.Shrug 

    -Strong Magic Shield was reduced to 15 seconds. I don't see how the reduction would've been related to pve.

    -The elemental weapons were scaled back. The Giant MoM w a lightning Claymore was an issue before Giant Dad was even thought about.

    -Then there's TWoP, I don't see how the nerf had anything to do with pve.

    -Then the "Dragonhead knife spit" thing was patched.

    -Larger weapon stunlocks were adjusted. I don't see what that would've had to do with pve.

    *I could find some other things if I looked. I'm just saying pvp is a concern for FROM. I do however, agree with you that the pve aspect is their main focus. But the arena itself kinda syas that they at least care about the pvp community.

    As far as enemies dead angling...I'm pretty sure Smough dead angles with his running attack. But again, I've just run into things that look like dead angles in pve. Saying it happens for sure might be overstating it.
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    Re: Do some glitches add depth ?

    Post by Sentiel on Sun Jul 07, 2013 4:53 pm

    TheMeInTeam wrote:Backstabs and most other issues in the game in PvP can be traced directly back to lag.  I don't mind someone punishing a slow str weapon attack with a backstab, but I have a serious issue with people warping back there, with my "timing" being off due to them appearing physically too far away on my screen until they enter the BS animation.

    IMO the game would be better off without either of the glitches, IE no toggle-escapes and no dead-angles.  However, without dead angles it is nearly impossible for big weapons to do anything at all to turtles, due to how trivial it is to parry.  Ideally a blunt weapon or a huge one should drain a LOT of stamina off blocks, but in practice it doesn't, and there's no way to use skill to hit "around" a shield of someone who simply blocks and faces you...and upgraded shields don't lose out stamina on blocking significantly more than the attacks that hit them.  The risk/reward prospect of turtling/parry fishing would go through the roof if you could block knowing that your opponent is risking a ~1000 damage riposte on every attack.
    Thanks to one thread in here, I took my 28/40 and dusted off a few Str weapons.
    After few days of PvPing only with Greataxe/Greatsword, Mace and Avelyn, I did not use Dead Angle once (not intentionally at least) and still won most of my fights.

    People that parry telegraph their intention 9 out of 10 times. They simply walk straight to you without doing anything and then they parry. I kicked them and hit them with my Mace, or shot them with Avelyn if they had low enough Poise every time and got parried only once, by FinPeku. Which speaks volumes, mind you.

    I had absolutely no problem with turtles. I'm a patient guy, I kept out of their range and waited for them to lose their cool and attack me. Trading hits with a Greataxe is not a good idea. Still. Investing some points to get 14 Dex to use Shotel is a little price to pay to be able to use this turtle slaying weapon.

    Out of all people I fought, I had serious problems only with Rapier users. I got a taste of my own medicine. happy
    They were just way too fast and out of my reach.

    Casters, GT R1 spammers, turtles, flippers, bs fishers, all got crushed under the Greataxe.

    The only thing I really hated about using a Str weapon was that almost everybody just wanted to bs me. Nothing else, just that. Backstab me, or bait me to attack to roll bs me. I usually had to wait for a minute, or two for them to give up on this, lose their patience and get killed by me.

    I think that Str weapons should do even more Stamina drain on blocking, especially with Light and Medium Shields (it's already increased btw, but still not enough imho), but being unable to deal with turtles and parry spammers is not a reason to use a glitch. It's a reason to get better.

    Sorry for the elitist tone in the last sentence, but I don't know how else to write this, especially since I am not very good in PvP myself and can do this. If I can do it, I think that everybody esle is able to do it as well.

    TheMeInTeam wrote:
    There's a lot of things that look silly in Souls games.

    I don't think anything beats a DBS backstab in Demon's Souls big grin.  When you think about the physics of the force required to make THAT happen, you start to realize that the thing must have been fired out of a modern cannon, not held in someone's hands lol.  It looked so ridiculous I was always amused.
    Especially if you do it with something like an Axe. big grin


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