Do some glitches add depth ?

Animaaal wrote:

Sentiel wrote:

Animaaal wrote:FROM has patched things that are pvp related for sure, and also, you can dead angle in pve, or at least the enemies can.  I've even had some spear its on NPCs that looked like they were dead angles.

Alright, please name one thing that was completely PvE unrelated that has been patched.

I tried to DA shield and spear Hollows in Burg with Zwei+0 and they blocked even 180° DA. 

-Strong Magic Shield was reduced to 15 seconds.  I don't see how the reduction would've been related to pve.

-The elemental weapons were scaled back.  The Giant MoM w a lightning Claymore was an issue before Giant Dad was even thought about.

-Then there's TWoP, I don't see how the nerf had anything to do with pve.

-Then the "Dragonhead knife spit" thing was patched.

-Larger weapon stunlocks were adjusted.  I don't see what that would've had to do with pve.

*I could find some other things if I looked.  I'm just saying pvp is a concern for FROM.  I do however, agree with you that the pve aspect is their main focus. But the arena itself kinda syas that they at least care about the pvp community.

As far as enemies dead angling...I'm pretty sure Smough dead angles with his running attack.  But again, I've just run into things that look like dead angles in pve.  Saying it happens for sure might be overstating it.

Alright.

Strong Magic Shield made you outright immortal. That was as OP as it can get.
They reduced the duration so that you can't just use it to block everything and use a Greatshield instead for such things. It was a great way to promote Greatshield usage, just like was increasing Stamina drain on blocking.

Elemental weapons do more damage than pure physical on most PvE enemies (depends on enemy and element used). That means players don't have to invest points to raise stats and just use elemental weapons and pump Vit, thus making PvE a cinch. Only DLC bosses are resistant to elemenets and magic to the point where using a pure Physical weapon does more damage.

TWoP affects enemies as well. You can cast it an run through the location like a boss without fighting anything. It doesn't affect most mobs, that's a fact, but it does affect some of them at least.

You do realize you can just use it to spit items on anything and kill it without having to actually fight it? Also, it was related to infinite Souls glitch and if used with Prism Stones could crash the game, which was dangerous.

I'm not sure if you mean how Claymore and other such swords got their infinite stunlock on 2H R2s removed, by making the swing recovery logner. If you meant that then I agree. That is probably PvP related. In PvE, it will give you a slight advantage, but unlike DeS there's not many enemies fast enough to exploit this slight delay between the swings.
Point taken.

Smough and Ornstein are a bunch of hacking gankers. We all know that.

Ya, everything I said can go both ways.  I don't know the reasoning behind every patch, nor do I pretend to.  I certainly didn't mean to sound that way.

But I think once from realized that the Demon's Souls community pulled together like the polar ends of a magnet, they said to themselves, "Man...we're DEFINITELY on to something".

If you look at some of the old Demon's Souls forums, you'll see that Dark Souls met a HUGE amount of requests from the player base, and then some.

Imo, the atrocious "summoning your friend" aspect of Dark Souls after release ruined the community and separated them into a few different factions...

...another conversation for another time though.  I'm just glad that Dark Souls outlasted the "civil war".

And if Dark Souls 2 becomes "pvp or die"...my interest will be short lived.

FROM focuses on PvE, but they don't ignore PvP.

I tried joining the community when DeS was fresh in EU, but failed. It wasn't pleasant at best.

I am very interested in this...another conversation you speak of. Care to elaborate in a PM?

Animaaal wrote:Imo, the atrocious "summoning your friend" aspect of Dark Souls after release ruined the community and separated them into a few different factions...

...another conversation for another time though.  I'm just glad that Dark Souls outlasted the "civil war".

And if Dark Souls 2 becomes "pvp or die"...my interest will be short lived.

I'm interested in this also.

Make a thread? I wasn't into Des as much i am into Dark Souls.

Yes and yes, pm though.

On topic,

Some people say dead angles make sense according to which weapon you are using.  The Great Scythe for instance.  It is a fancy staff with a sickle blade at the end....it should be able to "go around shields".

Well, the same thing could be said when you shoot an arrow at someone's foot and they block anyway.  

I think when you block, you should block.  I do not however, think they ruin the game, and in turn, I do not think they add the amount of depth to combat some people proclaim they do.

Some of them are just ridiculous. DA WoG for example.  I don't have a problem as the DWGR still goes on a lot of my builds.  However, if I decided to make a mid-rolling tank, I'd think that most DAs would put me at an unnecessary disadavntage to my competitors.

Personally, I could do without them.  I wish they'd take away the Wolf Ring, and the HSWC and the HWWC while they were at it.

Whats wrong with my baby HSWC? I've been proudly wearing the same armor get up for a year and a half, I don't see any reason it should suddenly be taken away from me.

Jansports wrote:Whats wrong with my baby HSWC? I've been proudly wearing the same armor get up for a year and a half, I don't see any reason it should suddenly be taken away from me.

Lol....ya that would suck for you...and....ehem.....this one build I have. 

Its just crazy what it gives you for the weight. I wasn't trying to offend anyone who uses it.

I use it for a reason! As soon as the DWGR nerf was announced I knew there would have to be a new armor set to fully optimize pvp performance, and the sudden extreme weight limitations lead to a build I had that was without the DWGR (I had died to shiva after killing the ninja before I picked it up and was sad and unwilling to go into Ng+)

But more on topic I think in my experience Dead Angles and Toggle escapes have added a lot of fun situations to PvP that wouldn't have otherwise happened. Such as getting Dead Angled on accident by a Mura wielding Red while I was forest hunting, which staggered me ironically saving me from an impending backstab, which because of my new found hitstun was simply a dinky little r1 from a chaos dagger. The phantom was baffled giving me enough time to regain composure and whack him in the head with a CSS.

 

First story I ever heard on how getting hit with a dead angle helped them. +1.

Yes. IMO, glitches like dead angle and toggle escape help balance the game.

I think like this:

While no glitches add depth to the game, some might not remove depth.

I think that Str weapons should do even more Stamina drain on blocking, especially with Light and Medium Shields (it's already increased btw, but still not enough imho), but being unable to deal with turtles and parry spammers is not a reason to use a glitch. It's a reason to get better.

If you're talking about a true duel, then ideally you use both the standard str countermeasures and dead-angling, assuming you have a weapon that can do it decently (things like the mace aren't exactly kings of dead angles).  The way I see it, if people are going to toggle-escape, I have no qualms dead-angling them.  No made up rules, and that means they might punish my dead angle attempts too.

However, the real issue is in the forest, where I usually invade (mostly as a darkwraith lately).  Turtles become a real problem there, because it goes from "stalling" to in some circumstances "buying time for a 2v1".  I'm having none of that if I can help it.  Even darkmoons/FH are not trustworthy in the forest, so there's some incentive for both the invader and the host to press.

Still, nothing beat the chaos of 2v2s in the forest.  Those are some of the most fun battles out there.  My opponent's turtling my zwei?  Okay, I'll run and BS the host as he tries to cast another homing soul mass instead of beating on the turtle ^_^.  Tempests going off, one side scattering vs TWoP, saving a FH from being parried and killing the host before the sunbro can react...so much mayhem in those situations.  It's a really, really good situation to have a good headset!

I like letting more experienced people do the talking for me. If you don't want to read through the whole thing, skip down to the section titled "Warranted" for the start of the talk about glitches.

Animaaal wrote:
I wish they'd take away the Wolf Ring, and the HSWC and the HWWC while they were at it.

C'mon wolf not that bad, it's a good ring that's all, DWGR is more op, and as for HSWC / HWWC they are seriously op, equilivant to RoFaP too good to pass up.

Edit any reference to over powered equipment is said with my tongue in my cheek

No complaints here

I was talking from a 1v1 perspective, but not a duel. I prefer invasions, because I dislike when people message me about breaking their silly self-made rules.
Anyway. from a 2/3v1 perspective, using Dead Angles does make some sense, because everybody in a gank squad turns to be a hero once his HP is low. To be fair though. 2/3v1 usually ends in spellspam, or backstab fest, so Dead Angling is not needed as long as we have these wonky backstabs.

However, I wouldn't bring the Forest into this. That place was designed to be a nest of all that is evil in Lordran and does it's job well to contain most of the ***holery the players have in them. When you decide to PvP there all bets are off and everything is permitted. 1v1 is already a well matched fight, with another one, or two players in the formula, it becomes extremely unfair to the lone invader/host and using things like Dead Angles can shift the balance at least a little in the lone guys favor.

On the other hand, when it's used in a 1v1, it creates a disadvantage for the one currently not using it. Not talking about morals, but only who is swinging his weapon right now. The person that is attacked by a Dead Angle has only two options. Get hit, or evade. He is deliberatly robbed of the options to block and parry by the DA user. That is not fair imho. While you can get hit and Toggle Escape, the getting hit part is what can get you killed, especially if we're talking about weapons like Zwei, or Mura, which do massive amounts of damage.

I understand that DAs add some extra depth to PvP meta in the eyes of some, if not most people. In my opinion, they are unfair, because they make tank builds with Greatshields useless in PvP, because everyone will just DA through the Greatshield, thus killing the shields entire purpose in the game.
Even as I played with Greataxe, which I had to two hand cos of 28 Str, people still used DAs against me. Not to bypass my shield, since I had none, but to stagger me and pull them towards themselves, thus opening me to inescapable backstab. Since I had Medium Roll to disable myself from roll bsing spell spammers that DA usage further made Medium Rolling a hindrance because it got me backstabbed, just as if I got hit by the DA.

In short, while DAs may add some depth, they also remove some of it and in my honest opinion, I think we would be better off without both Dead Angles and Toggle Escape.

I've never understood when people complain about OP. If the thing that is OP is taken away, something else will become the crutch that is used to optimise builds. As after dwgr being replaced with wolf ring and hollow bottoms, if they were gone something else would be used.

I'd rather have variety in abilities of equipment rather than dull as dishwater uniformity, even if we have a few things which are a bit better than others.

I agree that dead angles are a bit broken. I never use a shield in PvP anymore for the simple fact there's no point whatsoever if people dead angle. It's just unfortunate that souls doesnt account for a greater blocking angle. However I'm sure FROM will sort it out for the next game.

To be fair though. 2/3v1 usually ends in spellspam, or backstab fest, so Dead Angling is not needed as long as we have these wonky backstabs.

Fishing is just as prevalent among the gankers, and dead angling is a good way to catch them and kill them, often before the other can react.  When I started invading forest with zwei I thought I'd struggle, but it turned out to be the opposite...anything short of spawning into TWoP + WoG from 2 players gives me a real chance, and dead angles are a big part of that since it's not atypical to catch a fisher while the other guy is stunlocked or vice versa (stun the fisher and continue to damage him while also stunning the host that runs in to help).

I do get backstabbed occasionally, but land a surprising amount of BS myself considering I'm midrolling in full havel's.  Gankers are pretty predictable and unlocked pivots aren't hard to execute at all.  I get parried maybe once or twice per day, though few gankers try and I often just go for BS on people to toggle-parry if I see them going for that and they don't land 1st attempt perfectly.

On the other hand, when it's used in a 1v1, it creates a disadvantage for the one currently not using it. Not talking about morals, but only who is swinging his weapon right now. The person that is attacked by a Dead Angle has only two options. Get hit, or evade. He is deliberatly robbed of the options to block and parry by the DA user. That is not fair imho.

You can't parry magic of any variety at all, nor can you parry whips.  Only a few weapons in the game can dead angle with any consistency, and most of them have limited move sets otherwise.  WoG is annoying dead angled admittedly, though most builds can run magic barrier, fire back with magic, or roll BS.

But without pre-arranged (and non-quantified as necessary) rules, there is 0 moral issue with hitting dead angles one someone who is willing to toggle escape, fish in lag, etc.  There is no reason not to use everything at your disposal.  The most likely scenario leading to an unfair fight is when only one side is adhering to rules.  I have no problem with someone handicapping themselves (especially if the goal is to learn alternatives and thus improve overall), but that's what one is doing if not taking full advantage of the mechanics the game put forth.

I wouldn't mind if both DA and toggle escape were removed either, although the increase in fishing would have me running force almost constantly then lol.  You don't NEED it to punish fishing, but it's sure fun to do .

I agree that dead angles are a bit broken. I never use a shield in PvP anymore for the simple fact there's no point whatsoever if people dead angle.

What weapons can truly dead angle?  Mura and Zwei/Greatsword come to mind...but none of the poking weapons can dead angle (spears/rapiers) and spears are considered a very strong class regardless.  AFAIK none of the hammers can dead angle and you need to roll to get it on the great hammers.  None of the axes can do it particularly well and most can't do it at all...same for whips, straight swords, curved swords.  Even small katanas, the other favored dex weapon, don't really DA effectively.

This leaves a spell and a handful of weapons that, while not useless without DA, would be nerfed significantly when they are already short of the most typical choices.  Aside from WoG I'm not seeing much evidence to merit a DA nerf, and even WoG is arguable.

Almost anything can Dead Angle. As a Rapier user, I manage to DA even with Rapier. I don't know how, it happens usually when my opponent is moving around a lot with his shield raised. I hit a R2, it connects to his shield, even makes the impact sound, but he still gets damage. Almost anything can DA, but most weapons require the opponent to move into the DA, while weapons like Zwei, Mura and G. Scythe can DA on command anytime you want.

DA rapier is probably lag related.  Not only that, but saying "it can happen if opponent walks into it" is not really a strong example of a weapon that has any practicality for using DA ^_^.

I'm saying that because I'm not exactly sure how to do it, nor do I care to know. I only know it requiers opponent to move to work properly.
If DAs would be usable only with Zwei and Mura, how it sounds like from the threads around here, the problem would be tiny to bother with. However almost any weapon with horizontal attack can DA to some extent.

Sentiel wrote:I'm saying that because I'm not exactly sure how to do it, nor do I care to know. I only know it requiers opponent to move to work properly.
If DAs would be usable only with Zwei and Mura, how it sounds like from the threads around here, the problem would be tiny to bother with. However almost any weapon with horizontal attack can DA to some extent.

Yes, but if the DA is dependent on the person taking damage moving into it, they need only to not walk into it and they can block and parry without issue.

I have absolutely no problem with weapons "dead angling" people who are strafe-fishing lol.  The only reason that garbage (so called because it's rarely effective compared to alternative choices) works even 1/4 the time against anybody who's had the game more than a month or two for PvP is the lag.  The game gives you a very false sense of security when it comes to BS, so having something (likely also due to lag) that makes it somewhat more risky is a welcome tradeoff.

The BS I struggle with the most are not backstabs, but rather "30 degrees from directly in front of you" stabs, where the player warps over half of a second of movement to begin the stab animation.  I've literally seen the game allow the person to trigger a poise broken grunt...and then still BS me for full damage, despite the typical claim that damage dealth to BSer = animation but no BS damage ^_^.

Most people complain about the BS there, but that isn't the issue.  The issue is that the opponent's appearance is CONSISTENTLY somewhere other than where the game is showing you, but the extent it differs from their current location is variable and difficult to distinguish without something showing a ping time to the player.  The game uses client side detection...but for the purpose of these animations it values one client side action over the other.

If the lag also occasionally punishes the attempt, then all the more power to "accidental" dead angles.  I can't wait for DS2 servers.  Servers alone will completely change the MP experience, if if if they can avoid this fake latency added trash.  There is NO WAY half of the people I connect to have ping times to me of 300+ms...but the delays in-game appear that way too often, which leads me to believe that both sides are being given a delay artificially to remove "host advantage", often creating a bigger problem than the sub 100ms host advantage would have created.

That compensation is common in gaming today from what I gather, and it's sickening that unless the coding is done very, very well it punishes people who have better connections.

TheMeInTeam wrote:I've literally seen the game allow the person to trigger a poise broken grunt...and then still BS me for full damage, despite the typical claim that damage dealth to BSer = animation but no BS damage ^_^.

That's because the backstab/riposte animation overrides the stagger animation. Just like weapon swap overrides stagger. So if they get stunned but are in the position to backstab, they can just mash attack and get the bs. It's really stupid but works very often. So if someone dead angle dragon roars you, mash r1 and you'll most likely bs the guy if he's too close. 

I remember when i parried someone in the forest, then another guy pancaked me with zwei but i instantly got up and did the riposte. Looked pretty funny in slow motion.

That's because the backstab/riposte animation overrides the stagger animation. Just like weapon swap overrides stagger. So if they get stunned but are in the position to backstab, they can just mash attack and get the bs

I get that, but it still doesn't explain why I took full damage.  People wear armor of thorns to negate the BS damage...does the zwei damage not count?  It obviously hit him if he's making a stagger reaction...or is the game pretending it didn't?  This is what I dislike about client side detection with compensation...compensation doesn't count equally.

I'm not 100% sure, but this is how i think it goes: When you damage cancel bs, you deal the damage right at the same time as they bs you on their screen. That has nothing to do with poise. When the thing i explained happens, you first deal damage and they get stunned, then soon after that - while they are stunned - they press attack and backstab you. Very small difference, which is why i think damage canceling is not usually a strategy you can rely on.

Someone else might know the details but that is how i always thought it is.