Do some glitches add depth ?

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    TheMeInTeam
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    Re: Do some glitches add depth ?

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Mon Jul 08, 2013 4:27 pm

    As far as I can tell, however, I didn't damage him despite the stagger sound.  I think that fully was a lag-screw.


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    Re: Do some glitches add depth ?

    Post by FinPeku on Mon Jul 08, 2013 4:33 pm

    Maybe. Lag can cause crazy things in this game.


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    Re: Do some glitches add depth ?

    Post by Forum Pirate on Mon Jul 08, 2013 4:36 pm

    Its in when. The damage has to occur at essentially the same time you "warp" to get stuck in the bs animation.


    As for the effective dead angle weapons I can list them

    Zweih>greatsword

    Mura

    silver knight spear (r2 only)

    scythe (r2 and second r1)

    Great scythe

    bkga

    great hammers (meaning large and great clubs mostly)

    claymore/msgs/bastard sword (claymore 2hr2, msgs 2hr2, bastard sword 2hr2)

    Iff you'll notice, all of these weapons are either slow (easily parried) or only dead angle well with r2s (which are slow,) thus the dead angles primary duty in any of these instances is to evade being sight parried, spear/rapier turtled or straff bs'd, with the exception being the greatscythe running r1.

    To my knowledge, you can partial parry a dead angle and not take full damage, though I'll admit I could be misremembering there, but that's not the point. The point is that if you get dead angled with any of these weapons, being the only weapons I can think of that can do so on command, you are either strafe bsing or turtling and the slow and well telegraphed nature of the attacks that do it mean that If you're turtling and get caught by one, you have a more serious problem than dead angles to worry about (again, excluding the great scythe) because simply backing up or kicking will shut it down, and kicking is faster than the dead angle attacks of these weapons.




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    Re: Do some glitches add depth ?

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Mon Jul 08, 2013 4:57 pm

    If you partial parry a dead angle you can almost certainly backstab them after doing so on most of those attacks happy.


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    Re: Do some glitches add depth ?

    Post by Saturday-Saint on Mon Jul 08, 2013 7:31 pm

    TheMeInTeam wrote:The issue is that the opponent's appearance is CONSISTENTLY somewhere other than where the game is showing you, but the extent it differs from their current location is variable and difficult to distinguish without something showing a ping time to the player.
    Attack somebody, then count the time between them getting hit and taking damage. That delay should be twice your ping to them.


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    Re: Do some glitches add depth ?

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Mon Jul 08, 2013 7:48 pm


    Attack somebody, then count the time between them getting hit and taking damage. That delay should be twice your ping to them.

    Ping is the time it takes for a signal to go there and back.  It shouldn't take double that time unless there's a spike.


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    Re: Do some glitches add depth ?

    Post by Saturday-Saint on Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:50 pm

    Oh.  Well in that case it should be the ping, not double the ping.


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    Re: Do some glitches add depth ?

    Post by Sentiel on Mon Jul 08, 2013 9:36 pm

    This is interesting.
    Can you confirm that there is a way to reliably partial parry a DA and combo it into a bs?

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    Re: Do some glitches add depth ?

    Post by Jansports on Mon Jul 08, 2013 10:14 pm

    I've only consistently been able to partial parry into BS Jumping attacks that would have dead angled. Usually from the Mura and Great Scythe. I haven't really been able to do it to standard 2hr1 DAs from the Zwei or Random Spinning R1s from the Mura. Just the slow jumping attacks.
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    Re: Do some glitches add depth ?

    Post by Saturday-Saint on Tue Jul 09, 2013 2:11 am

    Sentiel wrote:This is interesting.
    Can you confirm that there is a way to reliably partial parry a DA and combo it into a bs?
    Why would you partial parry a dead angle into a BS rather than just block it then BS?


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    Re: Do some glitches add depth ?

    Post by Sentiel on Tue Jul 09, 2013 3:59 am

    Saturday-Saint wrote:
    Sentiel wrote:This is interesting.
    Can you confirm that there is a way to reliably partial parry a DA and combo it into a bs?
    Why would you partial parry a dead angle into a BS rather than just block it then BS?
    Because the way I understood it from the posts in the various threads around here, you can partial parry the DA even when you're locked on, but to block it, you have to unlock and turn to face the same direction as the guy using the DA. That seems unreliable and dangerous, while sacrificing a bit HP with partial, while remaining locked on seems much better option to me. It doesn't open me to potential bs and probably can be used even on faster weapons then Mura and Zwei.

    I'm just looking for a way to fight DAs, by using my shield, while remaining locked on...as silly as it sounds. If I find a way to that, my problem with DAs will be gone, because I will be able to block them and insta bs punish them.

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    Re: Do some glitches add depth ?

    Post by Saturday-Saint on Tue Jul 09, 2013 6:00 am

    Sentiel wrote:you can partial parry the DA even when you're locked on
    Nope. At least, it'd be news to me. I have never had my DA's partialed.

    Most reliable way to deal with DA's is to dodge or zone them.


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    Re: Do some glitches add depth ?

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Tue Jul 09, 2013 1:06 pm

    I'm just looking for a way to fight DAs, by using my shield, while remaining locked on...as silly as it sounds. If I find a way to that, my problem with DAs will be gone, because I will be able to block them and insta bs punish them.

    Poise BS.  People spamming DA who eat a few of those are almost certainly going to stop doing it, and then your shield is very relevant.  Any other method that discourages them facing away is also fruitful.


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    Re: Do some glitches add depth ?

    Post by Forum Pirate on Tue Jul 09, 2013 1:18 pm

    That's iffy. The damage from the da could negate the bs (while you can still take the damage) and the heavier weapons can stunlock you or hitstun bs you if you're not careful and lucky.


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    Re: Do some glitches add depth ?

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Tue Jul 09, 2013 1:50 pm

    True, but the other alternative is to dodge and he wants to use his shield lol.

    Perhaps I should phrase my question in reverse then: if there are no DAs, what are the effective counters to blocking with a reasonable stability shield?  You can't guard break due to parries, you can't DA, which means you either have to wait for them to put their shield down, attack with something that can't be parried and try to chip (magic or whips), or fish (which won't work on anybody good enough to care about if they know you're doing it).

    "Waiting" on something that has no time limit is not an effective counter.  Without DA absolutely everybody would need to carry something that chips, or just hope their opponent isn't good at parrying AND doesn't just turtle constantly while fishing...which is a VERY common strategy.  A large number of the rookies I fight will do the "strafe and block and only attack to backstab" approach.  Yes, you can beat that without DA (kick spam to break their guard then attack), but I don't see any incentive to make that tactic more rewarding when the threat of DA is very limited outside of WoG.


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    Re: Do some glitches add depth ?

    Post by Forum Pirate on Tue Jul 09, 2013 2:04 pm

    Kick, but that only works on people who are currently making several mistakes at once.

    Spam. (you'll get parried.)

    Magic (just about the best option, unless they have sms or gmb or vos or flash sweat)

    Turtle until they get frustrated or bored (have fun with that)

    Poision/toxic (moss will shut that down, and you're item use gives them an opportunity to strike, no to mention the gsoa negates toxic and bleed)

    Bleed (again, moss, parries and gsoa)

    straff bs (get counter bsd)

    Piviot bs (get counter bsd)

    Have I got them all, and why they're not viable? because they're not, especially when said turtle uses a spear or rapier and doesn't even have to expose themselves to attack.

    Edit: nope, I forgot the shotel. Not only is that overcentralising (have this 1 specific item or fail and die) but the r2's are telegraphed well (get parried) and outreached by spears.

    Roll in and parry (hilariously predictable, and punishable by a now unavoidable bs)


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    Re: Do some glitches add depth ?

    Post by Saturday-Saint on Tue Jul 09, 2013 2:25 pm

    Dead angle (get swap or poise bsd)

    It's almost as though every move has a counter.


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    Re: Do some glitches add depth ?

    Post by Leet on Tue Jul 09, 2013 2:54 pm

    Saturday-Saint wrote:Dead angle (get swap or poise bsd)

    It's almost as though every move has a counter.

     

    If they're gonna poise bs you, what's it matter if you're using a DA?

    You're hitting them and they're walking right through it regardless.

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    Re: Do some glitches add depth ?

    Post by Saturday-Saint on Tue Jul 09, 2013 2:57 pm

    It's easier to poise BS a dead angle, since they turn their back to you.


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    Re: Do some glitches add depth ?

    Post by sparkly-twinkly-lizard on Tue Jul 09, 2013 3:06 pm

    uhh, pirate... i've tried the
    great shield of artorias... for whatever reason the status negation you mentioned doesn't work, i still get poisoned, and bled out in pvp with it, the only shield that seems to block poison in pvp is the spider shield... and nothing seems to block bleed, guess i'll have to swap something out for red moss.

    (also i've tried turteling with havels shield with my back to a wall, it usually takes 2 minutes before people figure out what they should do, its kinda funny cause when they pull out the shotel i switch to the grass crest and then parry them, or they try bleed weapon spam, resulting in me parrying them, they all seem to forget about kicking and poison though)


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    Re: Do some glitches add depth ?

    Post by Forum Pirate on Tue Jul 09, 2013 3:14 pm

    good to know, though irrelivant to my point (moss is quick and will still stop it, and bleed can be dodged), which is (i think) the same a saturdays point, that deadangles exsist (at least still exsist) to counter the otherwise hugely over powered turtle and has its own risk of being countered.

    Other games have throws, dks has the dead angle.


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    Re: Do some glitches add depth ?

    Post by Leet on Tue Jul 09, 2013 3:15 pm

    Saturday-Saint wrote:It's easier to poise BS a dead angle, since they turn their back to you.



    Depending on the weapon, i see what you mean.

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    Re: Do some glitches add depth ?

    Post by Leet on Tue Jul 09, 2013 6:27 pm

    sparkly-twinkly-lizard wrote:and nothing seems to block bleed, guess i'll have to swap something out for red moss.

    Young padawon, you must learn the way of manipulating i-frames. 


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    Re: Do some glitches add depth ?

    Post by sparkly-twinkly-lizard on Tue Jul 09, 2013 6:33 pm

    the build in question is a fatrolling tank, who regularly takes on dark magic spammers... I don't really have I frames to work with, my fast builds deal with bleed just fine, but the tank, not so much.


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    Re: Do some glitches add depth ?

    Post by Leet on Tue Jul 09, 2013 7:11 pm

    sparkly-twinkly-lizard wrote:the build in question is a fatrolling tank, who regularly takes on dark magic spammers... I don't really have I frames to work with, my fast builds deal with bleed just fine, but the tank, not so much.

     
    It's for sure possible. If you're fat rolling through dark magic, you can fat roll through the bleed.


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