Here's to hoping they greatly narrow the backstab hitbox for DKS II

In theory, it is a great move, and should take skill to land while providing the payoff of high damage. They just need to tweak it a little. However, they ultimately turn most pvp encounters into a 'who can get their first circle-dance,' as you said. its just going to continue negating the otherwise impeccable combat mechanics if not fixed.

I definitely agree with disabling it while locked on, but that wont stop a ganker's white phantom from coming up behind you to dish one out.

- we should see a bit of improvemet now that they are bringing back dedicated servers (umbasa!)

steveswede wrote:

Elifia wrote:So how exactly will it affect PvE then? All you said against removing backstabs was some stuff about defending from invaders (which is PvP), defeating higher SL players (also PvP) and dealing with multiple mobs (I'll address that in a second).

Right now, when I'm PvEing, practically everything I do is circle around enemies until they attack and I can do a backstab. It's by far the most effective way of dealing with mobs, but it does not make for very interesting gameplay.

As for the multiple mobs: Why did you pull that many mobs? You probably should have been more careful and pull them 1 by 1. If that wasn't possible, then you should see if you can find some narrow passage where they can only fight you 1 at a time. Point is, there are loads of ways to deal with multiple mobs that do not involve backstabs.

Do I really need to explain this to you? I take it you're experienced with the mechanics of Dark Souls so you should be able to think of many situations with each enemy you can backstab. I really can't be arsed to run through each enemy, situation or skill level if you already know it.

Just because it's a CPU doesn't mean it makes more sense or is more tolerable. You're still being granted invincinbility, while killing enemies with minimal effort.

I rarely see a player actually perform a stealth kill, it's still a circle dance on aware CPU's, aiming for the easy, quick, effortless kill, rather than actually fighting the monsters. Your arguments imply you're alright with this, but i'd prefer that this not be the nature of PvE, as it cheapens the experience.

Rynn wrote:Just because it's a CPU doesn't mean it makes more sense or is more tolerable. You're still being granted invincinbility, while killing enemies with minimal effort.

I rarely see a player actually perform a stealth kill, it's still a circle dance on aware CPU's, aiming for the easy, quick, effortless kill, rather than actually fighting the monsters. Your arguments imply you're alright with this, but i'd prefer that this not be the nature of PvE, as it cheapens the experience.

You forget your skill level and knowledge of items and areas compared to others, people that have never played the game or who aren't dedicated to the series like we are here.

There was a time when we were all inexperienced, that black knight was hard as nails to defeat or the undead crystal soldiers gave us a hard time. We had little knowledge of where to upgrade, what upgrades are most effective at which level and our skill and knowledge of enemy patterns was almost none.

Because most of us can get an elemental weapon and be overpowered within the first 10 minutes, people seem to forget how difficult the skeletons were, that the necromancers were key to their resurrection, the snake men in sens, the knights in Anor Londo and lets not forget the Darkwraiths with their insane damage and stun locking moves.

Backstabs give a window to people that are new or getting in Dark Souls. They offer ways to defeat mobs that take little damage from weapons that haven't been upgraded. Kicking a black knight off a cliff can be a tactic for those that don't have the skill to defeat them, base level weapons or speed runs. It's effective when you're being gang banged like in the Dukes Archives, especially if you're a glass cannon on NG+ and further. It's good for farming as chipping away at enemies health can be long and leave you open to attack if you're not experienced enough to watch out for stuff like that.

If all your going to do is treat everyone on your skill level with only your interest for PvP balance, then you're never going to see backstabs in a positive light. You only say it cheapens the experience because you have gone beyond what most people do in this game. I've gone beyond using backstabs and parry everything because my skill is at the point where I don't even have to think about it and 99.9% of the time I do it successfully. There are many people out there that are not on my level and use backstabs to play safe because it works for them, just like it did for me all those months ago. Backstabs serve a big purpose to this game in PvE, they don't break the game, they add flavour to it.

I'm sorry, but stop bringing up PvP. I could give 0 *** about PvP right now, and you're aggrivating me by constantly assuming my only reason for wishing their removal is PvP.

My first thoughts on backstabs when I started the game was "Well this isn't good". I only do 12 damage a swing, but 250 if I reach their back. So I just back-stabbed -everything-. There was no reason to ever do anything else. It diminished my PvE experience greatly, and permitted me to get through the game without ever learning the tools it provided me. I played all the way through anor londo with just a +5 dagger, on my first playthrough. It was always, no matter what my skill level, easier to backstab: infinitely more so. I recall getting through the parish by backstabbing the balder knights, rather than learning how to engage them in combat, and I remember getting through dukes archives with 8 endurance and 8 vitality, with a +5 magic dagger, too. I've watched various lets plays, and the formula is always the same: if they discover backstabs, they do circle dances to any enemy they believe they can backstab.

Games are meant to be difficult, and if the player doesn't use the tools available to them, a player is supposed to be able to lose. Currently, even a newbie can tackle virtually any PvE challenge because of backstabs, regardless of if they understand any of the other tools available to them. That is a major problem in my eyes.

To hell with PvP, it's not my concern when i speak of how broken backstabs are. An attack to the back should do additional damage, not lock down everything, granting invulnerability, and a reprieve from combat that was only intended to exist either at bonfires, or once all the enemies were slain.

sure you can backstab your way through the most of the game and barely even bat an eyelash, but why would you do that when you can parry everything to death and make things even easier.

in my opinion, backstabs should stay as a compliment to parries. both are skills that need to be learned and why give the player a skill then tell them to sod off with that ******** because it would make things to easy.

don't get me wrong though. the mechanic definitely needs to be altered so that it is more difficult to circle or roll stab everything in sight. but you should still be able to get around behind someone who whiffs a hit or makes the mistake of casting a spell while they are too close to you and whatnot.

and maybe that's the key to the whole thing. perhaps you should only land a backstab if your victim is in the middle of doing something (similar to counter damage, except its a backstab when you are behind them) or they are unaware of you (facing away and not locked on to you, as Maneater Mildred suggested).

if by some chance FROM does decide to lose backstabs entirely, they would have to replace it with something else. i would suggest and instant knockdown or stagger when you attack someone from behind.

but honestly, i hope they don't remove backstabs.

also, backstabs looked way more brutal in Demon's Souls. i hope they bring that back.

@Rynn

Ok I apologize for that sorry.

Back stabs aren't the problem for cheesing enemy AI, stupid AI is. If the enemies were programed to counter that behavior by doing moves that can't be back stabbed then it would no longer be that tactic to rely upon but you could still perform one if the enemies performed a move that made then vulnerable.

(Ninja'd by Nybbles, that's what happens when you do other stuff like cooking something to eat)

As for invulnerability, is that really an issue? I don't see how this would break the PvE experience. So what that you have invincibility frames, should dodge rolling have it's invincibility frames removed because it doesn't look right when you roll through the Four Kings swords that are big enough to slice an elephant in half? God of War has no invincibility frames when rolling and it's a major pain in the *** being hit even though you've have the reflexes to dodge moves you see coming.

The roll is far different in function than a backstab. If you mis-time a roll, you take 40% more damage from instability. Not only is the time a player is invincible far less from a roll, but it costs stamina, has a risk of increased damage risk, and requires far more skill to pull off appropriately when 3-5 enemies are swinging at you.

Meanwhile, a backstab makes you invincible for 2 or more seconds, you recover stamina during the animation (which makes the backstab more than just free), you do large amounts of damage for having been invincible, and you suffer no risk of increased damage taken for attempting to perform the backstab: once you've accomplished it, there is no worries.

Rolling to dodge the attack of a cluster of 3 balder knights can result in one or more of them hitting you for trying, but the same isn't true for the backstab, where you're invulnerable for several seconds, while the other 2 knights can do nothing to harm you.

Yes, the invulnrability is an issue. It's an issue because on top of all the other functions a backstab has, it is a reward that heavily weighs in favor of just backstabbing anything that breathes.

The risk/reward ratio of a back-stab is obscenely skewed. Imagine if in TF2, the spy got 2 seconds of complete invincibility after performing a backstab, and you might have some idea of why the invulnrability is one of the biggest advantages a backstab gives.

Yes they function differently but they still have the same perk you have the big issue with, invincibility frames. Sorry but invincibility frames need to stay even for back stabs because they are a way out when stacked against a group of enemies. It's a bit unfair to the player by saying you can do nothing to get out unless you bring back the roll from DeS where by rolling into enemies moves them out the way.

Yeah reduce the time it takes to back stab, stop the stamina from filling in the back stab animation but take away the invincibility frames and then you would have to apply that to rolls and parries.

i wouldn't want to get stuck in a backstab animation and then wailed on by a mob that decided then would be a perfect time to kill me…because i wouldn't be able to do sod all about it. because that would really suck.

also…

steveswede wrote:Yeah reduce the time it takes to back stab, stop the stamina from filling in the back stab animation but take away the invincibility frames and then you would have to apply that to rolls and parries.

…what he said

Rynn wrote:and you suffer no risk of increased damage taken for attempting to perform the backstab:

But if you attempt to BS and it doesn't happen you get Light attack, which puts you at risk for counter damage.

Tackling 3 balder knights at once may be made easier with proper use of backstabs, but it still isn't easy. You have to somehow get behind one of them which between their shields swords parry stances ect.

Backstabs are a reward for good play, they feel all like OOMPH YEAH I'M WRECKIN THIS DUDE. And the core tenant of souls gameplay is rewarding learning and good play. No one starts out BS master, they learn over time to use them and that learning is really what souls is about. The first time through the Burg it was slow and hard and I died. As I got better and used tools like rolling, BSing, kicking each subsequent trip from firelink to Parish was easier.

idk i never used backstabbing. Demons souls even. I just never used them because i always loved the swordplay slash/trust/block face to face with enemy approach. They use some of the best collision detection ive ever seen in a game, and one of the only games where a shield actually feels like your blocking.

there is something satisfying about a well timed strike against a powerful enemy who is winding up to reduce your health to 0 but your able to get him first. Ofcourse a backstab is necessary for certain situations, like Havel.. I have no clue how I beat him the first time i played thru, as i didnt backstab then.
- Even pvp some people will use it as a fail-safe

But with pvp, the lag that persists renders this move to be exploitable. There is no one here who engages in pvp who hasnt run into the duel where they are magicly teleported mid roll to receive their BS, and the guy that rolls right past you so they can manipulate the camera angle

steveswede wrote:
Yeah reduce the time it takes to back stab, stop the stamina from filling in the back stab animation but take away the invincibility frames and then you would have to apply that to rolls and parries.

Obscenely unreasonable to achieve. A DWGR flip has 15 I-frames, and a fast roll, 11. If you believe you can animate a fluid looking backstab in 1/3 to 1/2 a second, that would probably be pretty amazing to see, but otherwise a backstab is always going to offer more I-frames than the roll does, while breaking the flow of combat.

Meanwhile there is better alternatives that don't remove the function of backstabs. A bonus damage for hitting an opponent in the back, for example. Such a bonus could be weighted to offer better results to daggers and other 'backstabbing' instruments, would still allow a person to dodge the backstab in PvP, would not eliminate stealth from the equation in PvE or PvP, and could be given a 'stun' to make it effective against tanks.

This would even make daggers and other small instruments better at their assasssin role, because a daggers swing is fast enough to exploit an exposed back, while a giant hammer, is far less likely to make use of the exposure.

Right now i believe the main point of daggers/rapiers in regards to critical damage is their light weight. So daggers/rappiers still have a place for some

Animaaal wrote:I say 1/2 second backstab immunity for pressing block.... :suspect: ...anyone?

Anyone????

I kinda agree with steveswede on bs in pve. The enemies just need to be adjusted to counter bs attempts.

Also one hypothetical case that could happen if backstabs had to happen by an actual swing instead of instantly doing it is that:
1. Slow weapons would never land a bs haha n.e.v.e.r. (a roll bs if you oppenent has slow recovery)
2.fast weapon users, with decent poise, could spam slow weapon users all day with no fear of bs (not including parry)

Again those are just situations. Theirs obviously situations that cancel my arguement.

I kinda like the way backstabs are now. The damage is a little high in my opinion and the hitbox may be slightly big idk

IMO, it is simple. The higher damage an attack does, the harder it should be to pull off. Narrowing the hitbox is, by far, the easiest way to accomplish this.

I like the idea that Animaal has and the idea of rolling actually canceling backstabs. But that idea is about a problem that is due to lag. Also, I am in favor of reducing the hitbox. But what about this:


I played Assassin's Creed recently (the first one), and in the game, if you walk up to a guard and try to assassinate them, if they notice you, they stop the assassination attempt.

Why not make it like that? Make backstabs limited to people who aren't locked on to you. It would make unlocked play much more risky, and stealth would have a massive benefit. You sneak up on a dude who isn't locked on to you, you can backstab him for massive damage. But if he notices and locks on, you only do a regular attack, or maybe this:

If you were to get behind an opponent while they are still locked on to you, just make it do a kick down. No damage, but they just kick you down to the floor.

And backstabs are ridiculous in PvE. I try so hard not to abuse them. Take away the invulnerability of backstabs and ripostes. Please.

yea i like the idea that locked on means no BS.

- So with that, maybe there could be a counter-move (a timed shield-bash vs heavy attack?) that disables the opponents lock-on, at which point a backstab can be pulled off if youre quick enough to get behind them while they are fumbling to lock back on..
I always feel cheap when i go in for a BS, as if it is because ive run out of options and skill/weapon move-set wont cut it. This is where making it harder to land would provide the satisfaction of accomplishment when you actually do; the very element that makes the Souls games thrive..

The heck I know, I've just been pvp'ing for a week.

But I have noticed most fights are about the backstab dance. When a single mechanic dominates gameplay, well it's bad.

As a total noobarse, right now my n1 priority in getting better at PvP is learning how to avoid backstabs and learning how to perform those crazy lagstabs and rollstabs or whatever. I couldn't give a rat's *** about anything else, because there isn't anything else (except for a few wackos like mayhem, who I'm sure know about all this, but do something different because they're probably bored of using a single move all the time).

Lorrac ESP wrote:The heck I know, I've just been pvp'ing for a week.

As a total noobarse, right now my n1 priority in getting better at PvP is learning how to avoid backstabs...

^ Back up/strafe in the same direction they're coming at you from (locked on), and when the two characters are about to cross, hit R1 (keep your shield down). Oila! Instant BS protection from 95% of the BS fishers out there.

More generally, FROM should do two things:

1. Severely limit the hitbox.
   
2. When a shield is on the person's back, negate BS completely.

In terms of #2, I think it just makes more "physical" sense. Dark Souls gets the physical nature of combat more correctly than any other game in my memory--swords rebounding off shields, hitting walls, etc.--so it's a shame that a sword can just cut through a shield like butter during a BS.

But this also brings up another question. If a "passive" shield (i.e. on the back) gives defence against BS attempts, should it also negate (or reduce) regular attacks that hit from behind the player? While this would make sense practically/physically, it would definitely be overpowered... Why would anyone ever STOP 2 handing?

If a player is locked on to me, and they decide to cast TWoP...then I cant backstab them?...I vote no.

If a player has a shield on their back then, well then it wouldn't work for my Darkhand, and it would cause everyone to sport a shield on their back...prolly the Grass Crest...I vote no.

If the hitbox is shrunk, and the servers make even a little bit of difference then I vote yes.....BUT ONLY if it also fixes vacuum-stabs. If there is still vacuum-stabs aka lag-stabs aka tele-stabs, then I vote no.

Pushing block and getting a 1/4-1/2 backstab immunity.....I vote WIN!

The only real problem with backstabs, imo, are the lag-stabs. You should not be "teleported" out of your roll into a backstab. A 1/2 sec immunity for pushing block would fix the problem. ALbeit there might be some problems with that scenario as well.... ...I just cant think of any, but then again, thats prolly cuz its my idea. :|

Animaaal wrote:Pushing block and getting a 1/4-1/2 backstab immunity.....I vote WIN!

And peaple started to run around tapping L1...

My vote goes to narrowing the window. No need for more mechanics to be exploited.

Many great points have been brought up so far. I personally think that they will need to change BS quite a lot.

1. Hopefully having server-based multiplayer will help to remove the lagstabs that are the bane of dark souls.

2. The hitbox for backstabs should be reduced, but not as to make them incredibly difficult to perform.

3. backstab damage should be much lower, with only a 15~20% increase in damage.

4. Backstab animation should be shortened if possible, as they ruin the pace of the game.

5. Some sort of reliable counter system needs to be implemented so that people dont have to rely on latency to allow them to counter.

6. I believe that if there is a hornet ring equivalent in DKSII, this too needs to be scaled down, perhaps increasing backstabs by 20~30%.

Whilst I understand that not everyone will agree with me, I think that my suggestions would greatly help to enrich DKSII multiplayer, and most likely do away with backstab fishers, when the damage is far from OHKO caliber.

I would love to hear what everybody thinks about these proposed ideas.

O1va_ wrote:

Animaaal wrote:Pushing block and getting a 1/4-1/2 backstab immunity.....I vote WIN!

And peaple started to run around tapping L1...

My vote goes to narrowing the window. No need for more mechanics to be exploited.

How would someone constantly dropping their guard be exploiting anything exactly? :suspect:

Animaaal wrote:

O1va_ wrote:

Animaaal wrote:Pushing block and getting a 1/4-1/2 backstab immunity.....I vote WIN!

And peaple started to run around tapping L1...

My vote goes to narrowing the window. No need for more mechanics to be exploited.

How would someone constantly dropping their guard be exploiting anything exactly? :suspect:

I'm doing it allready, and I think anyone doing PvP does the same, what's the point of constantly blocking, you'll only mess up your stamina recovery. Now if just pressing block would give you BS invisibility you could just tap block every ½ second everytime your opponent comes near -> infinite BS invisibility.