Here's to hoping they greatly narrow the backstab hitbox for DKS II

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    Here's to hoping they greatly narrow the backstab hitbox for DKS II

    Post by phastings on Mon May 13, 2013 5:20 am

    Does anyone else feel that PVP could be so much better if they significantly reduce the backstab hitbox, or eliminate it all together? The duels would be so much more lengthy and epic, and we would have to rely solely on skill.

    It is always such a rage-quit situation when you get invaded/invade another world of a rolling/lag stabber only to die within seconds while they taunt with several shrugs Shrug gahhh i hate that! lol

    Judging from the gameplay reveal footage and the instance where they show the armored turtle foe countering a backstab by falling on the player pretty much confirms they are continuing the ability, but it is still open as to whether they can be performed p2p. thoughts?


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    Re: Here's to hoping they greatly narrow the backstab hitbox for DKS II

    Post by AnCapaillMor on Mon May 13, 2013 5:47 am

    Yeah definately reduce the hit box, direct los with the spine or no bs or decrease the damage. Liked that bit with the backdrop on the demo vid, introduce a reverse stab for pvp?


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    Re: Here's to hoping they greatly narrow the backstab hitbox for DKS II

    Post by Werdax on Mon May 13, 2013 7:37 am

    I certainly hope they make it a bit more difficult to perform. If they removed it entirely, it would feel like they took too much away from the Souls serious combat.
    All in all, I can deal with the backstap situation as it is. If they reintroduce the hornet ring however...
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    Re: Here's to hoping they greatly narrow the backstab hitbox for DKS II

    Post by Rynn on Mon May 13, 2013 7:40 am

    I believe Dark Souls could be fully improved by the removal of a backstab: PvE included.
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    Re: Here's to hoping they greatly narrow the backstab hitbox for DKS II

    Post by CephGabriel on Mon May 13, 2013 7:46 am

    I would think the whole situation would just be solved by having a backwards stab manuever, like how the turtle lands on his back, which you can perform just before a backstab if you anticipate being backstabbed (like a guy sprinting towards you to perform the run-around-camera-lock-on backstab maneuver) and make it do super massive damage, moreso than a backstab.


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    Re: Here's to hoping they greatly narrow the backstab hitbox for DKS II

    Post by xenon_nobelium on Mon May 13, 2013 8:03 am

    throw escape, works in fighting games, mabe just the roll button. also make the roll have throw invul., thats really an oversight in my opinion. this would negate the most annoying backstab situations where you roll away from the opponent just to magically warp back into a backstab animation. backstabs as punisher for slow attacks/casts would be unaffected by theese mechanics if it's executed in the recovery frames.


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    Re: Here's to hoping they greatly narrow the backstab hitbox for DKS II

    Post by AnCapaillMor on Mon May 13, 2013 8:06 am

    I think dumping it would be a bad idea, i can just see people finding something else or everyone as a slow walking turtle with iron flesh being the number 1 used spell.


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    Re: Here's to hoping they greatly narrow the backstab hitbox for DKS II

    Post by VaDoom on Mon May 13, 2013 8:20 am

    I'm not for removing it . But something has to be done. The fact that some people base their strategy on backstab fishing only proves it's flawed.
    Maybe something about the hitbox, or the way the positionings of the characters are interpreted in game.
    If it's not possible because of lag, maybe making it less attractive by greatly reducing the bonus will be enough.


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    Re: Here's to hoping they greatly narrow the backstab hitbox for DKS II

    Post by Jansports on Mon May 13, 2013 9:08 am

    VaDoom wrote:I The fact that some people base their strategy on backstab fishing only proves it's flawed.
    .

    Some people base their whole strategy on R1 with the GT. Or just Dark bead, or just poison arrows.

    The fact that there are backstab fishers is not proof positive that anything is wrong with the system.
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    Re: Here's to hoping they greatly narrow the backstab hitbox for DKS II

    Post by VaDoom on Mon May 13, 2013 9:34 am

    Jansports wrote:
    VaDoom wrote:I The fact that some people base their strategy on backstab fishing only proves it's flawed.
    .

    Some people base their whole strategy on R1 with the GT. Or just Dark bead, or just poison arrows.

    The fact that there are backstab fishers is not proof positive that anything is wrong with the system.

    Good point. Let's say it proves me it's flawed then.
    I think BS wasn't intended to be that exploitable though, and still needs adjustements.


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    Re: Here's to hoping they greatly narrow the backstab hitbox for DKS II

    Post by Nybbles on Mon May 13, 2013 11:00 am

    I like the back stab in principle. What I don't like is how they are implemented. Being that it's easiest to back stab while standing slightly to the side of your victim…instead of you know…actually being at their back.

    If FROM removed back stabs, I would hope they add something else in its place so that you get some sort of advantage for taking your victims back (i didn't mean it that way! honest!). Perhaps a normal attack that instantly stuns or puts your victim off balance or something to that effect.
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    Re: Here's to hoping they greatly narrow the backstab hitbox for DKS II

    Post by Solid Knight on Mon May 13, 2013 11:03 am

    I think they could really improve the backstab mechanics if they removed the ability for a player to roll then immediately perform a backstab. Rolling then immediately pressing attack should just result in a rolling attack. This would pretty much end backstab-only strategies.
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    Re: Here's to hoping they greatly narrow the backstab hitbox for DKS II

    Post by Rynn on Mon May 13, 2013 11:38 am

    Nybbles wrote:
    If FROM removed back stabs, I would hope they add something else in its place so that you get some sort of advantage for taking your victims back (i didn't mean it that way! honest!). Perhaps a normal attack that instantly stuns or puts your victim off balance or something to that effect.
    This is something I've promoted for a while. I think backstabs shouldn't be an animation, rather a bonus damage multiplier. 50% for large weapons, 100% for dex weapons, 200% for rapiers, and 333% for daggers.

    As it's not an animation, it could be avoided, while still permitting players to punish mistakes, and do 'assassinations'.
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    Re: Here's to hoping they greatly narrow the backstab hitbox for DKS II

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Mon May 13, 2013 12:38 pm

    Yeah the locked animation and lag-time warp make them really obnoxious.

    I just wish I didn't get backstabbed with a fair amount of frequency because I used R1 instead of kicking. I wanted to kick, hit the inputs to kick, NOPE lag = R1 now you get BS'd and die HURRHURRHURR.

    Kick is not something that should be inconsistent. If I were on PC I'd definitely map it to something more competent.


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    Re: Here's to hoping they greatly narrow the backstab hitbox for DKS II

    Post by steveswede on Mon May 13, 2013 1:17 pm

    I'm sure I'll get slack for saying this but PvPers who complain about backstabs and moan that something needs to be done need to stop being selfish. PvE is this game primary objective and in PvE you can get invaded and gang banged by invaders, invaders with multiple enemies or multiple enemies in general. You could be an invader who has to deal with a host with two phantoms who are all a level way higher than you (example I have invaded groups like this at a level of where they're kitted out with heavy, high defence gear who can medium roll while casting magic and miracles and swinging heavy weapons. Or in short invaded a host with two phantoms at a level of 23 while their levels were way in to the 200's).

    Critical attacks like backstabs give players a way out or in an invaders situation a chance to win. This is what matters more than balance while dueling because Dark Souls is not Street Fighter, it is not a fighting game and never will be. If you have ideas that can improve the combat for PvE then fine, but please stop these ideas of nerfing the backstab because it's more important to keep it the way it is.

    Oh and another point. If backstabs were removed you've pretty much killed the purpose of the knifes. Having a knife or being a thief build would then become redundant.

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    Re: Here's to hoping they greatly narrow the backstab hitbox for DKS II

    Post by goober0331 on Mon May 13, 2013 1:24 pm

    I'd say fix the lag before you fix the backstab.
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    Re: Here's to hoping they greatly narrow the backstab hitbox for DKS II

    Post by xenon_nobelium on Mon May 13, 2013 1:30 pm

    have a ring that greatly reduces critical dmg^^ or as a defense stat that can be stacked with certain equipment, that way one would instantly realise "no use trying to BS this guy."


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    Re: Here's to hoping they greatly narrow the backstab hitbox for DKS II

    Post by Elifia on Mon May 13, 2013 2:16 pm

    steveswede wrote:I'm sure I'll get slack for saying this but PvPers who complain about backstabs and moan that something needs to be done need to stop being selfish. PvE is this game primary objective and in PvE you can get invaded and gang banged by invaders, invaders with multiple enemies or multiple enemies in general. You could be an invader who has to deal with a host with two phantoms who are all a level way higher than you (example I have invaded groups like this at a level of where they're kitted out with heavy, high defence gear who can medium roll while casting magic and miracles and swinging heavy weapons. Or in short invaded a host with two phantoms at a level of 23 while their levels were way in to the 200's).

    Critical attacks like backstabs give players a way out or in an invaders situation a chance to win. This is what matters more than balance while dueling because Dark Souls is not Street Fighter, it is not a fighting game and never will be. If you have ideas that can improve the combat for PvE then fine, but please stop these ideas of nerfing the backstab because it's more important to keep it the way it is.

    Oh and another point. If backstabs were removed you've pretty much killed the purpose of the knifes. Having a knife or being a thief build would then become redundant.

    I'm pretty sure Rynn has already explained quite clearly that it would also benefit PvE to remove backstab, at least in this old thread: http://soulswiki.forumsrpg.com/t15816-what-do-backstabs-really-add-to-the-game


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    Re: Here's to hoping they greatly narrow the backstab hitbox for DKS II

    Post by steveswede on Mon May 13, 2013 2:55 pm

    Elifia wrote:I'm pretty sure Rynn has already explained quite clearly that it would also benefit PvE to remove backstab, at least in this old thread: http://soulswiki.forumsrpg.com/t15816-what-do-backstabs-really-add-to-the-game

    Rynn says that backstabs contribute nothing to PvE, I have however made a very good point that they do.

    You know what I could say to counter it even further. I could say they should remove multiplayer altogether, it's not essential to the game and will keep the difficulty consistent for every person that plays the game because some bosses get annihilated by people fleshed out with maxed out gear.

    You know what I could also say, backstabs are more important to Dark Souls than multiplayer.
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    Re: Here's to hoping they greatly narrow the backstab hitbox for DKS II

    Post by Forum Pirate on Mon May 13, 2013 3:15 pm



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    Re: Here's to hoping they greatly narrow the backstab hitbox for DKS II

    Post by Jansports on Mon May 13, 2013 4:19 pm

    steveswede wrote:Having a knife or being a thief build would then become redundant.

    I don't think you mean redundant.
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    Re: Here's to hoping they greatly narrow the backstab hitbox for DKS II

    Post by Rynn on Mon May 13, 2013 4:59 pm

    steveswede wrote:
    Elifia wrote:I'm pretty sure Rynn has already explained quite clearly that it would also benefit PvE to remove backstab, at least in this old thread: http://soulswiki.forumsrpg.com/t15816-what-do-backstabs-really-add-to-the-game

    Rynn says that backstabs contribute nothing to PvE, I have however made a very good point that they do.

    You know what I could say to counter it even further. I could say they should remove multiplayer altogether, it's not essential to the game and will keep the difficulty consistent for every person that plays the game because some bosses get annihilated by people fleshed out with maxed out gear.

    You know what I could also say, backstabs are more important to Dark Souls than multiplayer.
    You're using a falacy in that argument by saying "We might as well do X or Y, ecause it's pretty much the same thing". No, removing multiplayer is completely different. Don't say stupid things, they don't help your point.

    You've done nothing to outline why backstabs should stay, i mean really. They need to stay so that you can beat people that are 10 times your level, and to escape hairy situations in PvE? That sounds like the exact same reason I stated they need to be removed.

    1: Backstabs remove risk from many encounters that should be dangerous, while also making you invulnarable to the hoard. I can safely fight 20-30 black knights at once because of the backstab mechanic, and this isn't a good thing. Enabling a player to high damage while being immune to damage makes both PvE and PvP vastly easier, and as such seems out of place in the Souls Game atmosphere.

    2: many other solutions have been offered to keeping daggers interesting. First off, a riposte is still existant, but on top of this, counter damage for hitting targets in the back has been suggested, as well as other methods for keeping knives and rapiers optimal weapon choices.

    I've already had a very long discussion about this, and you've been linked to it. I've got my reasoning for it being removed, and so far, the reasons you've given for why it should stay, or major points for why it should go away.
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    Re: Here's to hoping they greatly narrow the backstab hitbox for DKS II

    Post by reim0027 on Mon May 13, 2013 5:11 pm

    What's ironic, is the BS is one of the easiest moves to do, yet, I suck at doing it. I can roll BS just fine, but a pivot or locked on BS, I suck at.

    But, BS have to stay, IMO. I agree that the hitbox should be much narrower.


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    Re: Here's to hoping they greatly narrow the backstab hitbox for DKS II

    Post by Soris Ice Goldwing on Mon May 13, 2013 5:24 pm

    I don't want to remove backstabs entirely just make them harder to perform by narrowing the angle that triggers them to a smaller 90 degree angle from the center of a person's back. Half the backstabs I pull off are from angles that don't make sense and that is ridiculous in itself. If I want to pull off a backstab I want to be behind the player.


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    Re: Here's to hoping they greatly narrow the backstab hitbox for DKS II

    Post by crbngville2 on Mon May 13, 2013 5:25 pm

    Backstabs existed in DeS and have been carried forward to DkS. Removing backstabs IMO changes too many of the existing mechanics. Getting rid of P2P will go a long way to reducing lag and the associated problems it causes with the backstab mechanics. I have no problem with the hitbox window being made smaller, but overall the backstab needs to left in the game and without a huge amount of reworking it.


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