Here's to hoping they greatly narrow the backstab hitbox for DKS II

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    Animaaal
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    Re: Here's to hoping they greatly narrow the backstab hitbox for DKS II

    Post by Animaaal on Mon May 20, 2013 9:45 am

    O1va_ wrote:
    Animaaal wrote:
    O1va_ wrote:
    Animaaal wrote:Pushing block and getting a 1/4-1/2 backstab immunity.....I vote WIN! cheers

    And peaple started to run around tapping L1...

    My vote goes to narrowing the window. No need for more mechanics to be exploited.

    How would someone constantly dropping their guard be exploiting anything exactly? :suspect:

    I'm doing it allready, and I think anyone doing PvP does the same, what's the point of constantly blocking, you'll only mess up your stamina recovery. Now if just pressing block would give you BS invisibility you could just tap block every ½ second everytime your opponent comes near -> infinite BS invisibility.

    Well, then they eat a kick to the face...

    ...a combustion to the face...

    ...my 2handed r1 falchion spam to the face...

    ...my Dark Bead to the face...

    ...I guess, just about EVERYTHING to the face. twisted

    I'm sorry man, but the whole "rapidfire block" just means the person spamming block would die without getting backstabbed. Shrug

    ***edit****

    I'm sorry, but 1/4-1/2 second hardly equals bakstab invincibility. :evil:
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    Re: Here's to hoping they greatly narrow the backstab hitbox for DKS II

    Post by O1va_ on Mon May 20, 2013 9:52 am

    Animaaal wrote:Well, then they eat a kick to the face...

    ...a combustion to the face...

    ...my 2handed r1 falchion spam to the face...

    ...my Dark Bead to the face...

    ...I guess, just about EVERYTHING to the face. twisted

    I'm sorry man, but the whole "rapidfire block" just means the person spamming block would die without getting backstabbed.

    Haha, of course you can keep blocking if other person is attacking, no-one forces you to drop your guard. It doesn't take that long to discover is your opponent going for BS or just attacking.

    And most of the things you listed are a bad idea to block to begin with, if I see pyrohand I'll dodge, cataliyst same thing. Now that falcion, please do come spamming and eat my riposte to the face.

    e: To your edit, most of the time I get backstabbed is me rolling away and getting sucked back to a BS, now if I had just tapped L1 before rolling...

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    Re: Here's to hoping they greatly narrow the backstab hitbox for DKS II

    Post by Animaaal on Mon May 20, 2013 10:05 am

    O1va_ wrote:

    Haha, of course you can keep blocking if other person is attacking, no-one forces you to drop your guard. It doesn't take that long to discover is your opponent going for BS or just attacking.

    And most of the things you listed are a bad idea to block to begin with, if I see pyrohand I'll dodge, cataliyst same thing. Now that falcion, please do come spamming and eat my riposte to the face.

    e: To your edit, most of the time I get backstabbed is me rolling away and getting sucked back to a BS, now if I had just tapped L1 before rolling...

    Ahhhh, now we're getting somewhere. Isn't that the probelm to begin with? No one who is serious about pvp has a problem with backstabs outside of the "tele-stab" aka getting sucked into a backstab while rolling. This would offer a solution.

    As far as a bad idea to begin with...what is? Kicking? Using combustions? How are you gonna parry when your stunlocked because you dropped your guard while spamming block?

    I think you might be assuming 1/4 second is longer than it is. A lot of weapons swing time IS a 1/4 second, which means your roll bs punish would still work. Push block to try and cast?....Same thing.

    Again, saying that if you spam block you would gain some sort of backstab immunity...so what? You'd be an easy target. If your spamming block, you're not doing what is required to stay alive.
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    Re: Here's to hoping they greatly narrow the backstab hitbox for DKS II

    Post by wretchedsausage on Mon May 20, 2013 10:10 am

    Just a thought; do you realise that if that were an implemented mechanic, how ridiculous everyone would look? there is no way FromSoft would make everyone do that.


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    Re: Here's to hoping they greatly narrow the backstab hitbox for DKS II

    Post by Animaaal on Mon May 20, 2013 10:14 am

    wretchedsausage wrote:Just a thought; do you realise that if that were an implemented mechanic, how ridiculous everyone would look? there is no way FromSoft would make everyone do that.

    How ridiculous everyone would look?

    :mask-sack: :mask-mother: :mask-child: :mask-father:

    Again, if someone thinks that spamming block to gain backstab immunity would work, go try spamming block against your opponent and tell me how it fairs. Shrug

    There's a couple problems with the idea, I just know there are, but saying everyone would spam block is not one of them. To those that tried it, it would last...3 or 4 fights tops...then they'd use it before they rolled to avoid tele-stabs, like it was inteded, if it were to be implemented.

    How they would look...thanks man, I lol'd out loud. Bow
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    Re: Here's to hoping they greatly narrow the backstab hitbox for DKS II

    Post by xenon_nobelium on Mon May 20, 2013 10:15 am

    i still think having an escape animation that is triggered with the same button as the roll would be enough to fix the mechanic. if you rolled in time and they lagstab you, the escape animation plays. maybe even have some dmg done to the would be backstabber. fighting games learned a long time ago that untechable throws are too strong. if they want to keep the current form of backstabs (high damage/ inescapable) they need an mechanical execution barrier just like 360° command throws in fighting games. no idea how to pull that of though...maybe only have crit weapons be able to backstab and take their R2 for it so you manualy have to trigger a backstab attempt and play a whiff animation that leaves you open for a punish if you fail.


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    Re: Here's to hoping they greatly narrow the backstab hitbox for DKS II

    Post by Animaaal on Mon May 20, 2013 10:45 am

    xenon_nobelium wrote:...i still think having an escape animation that is triggered with the same button as the roll would be enough to fix the mechanic...

    I'd go for that too. Thats actually my prefered fix. But there is a lot of oppostion to that implementation. Some people seem to think that if you land a backstab you've earned it.

    Personally, I think dedicated servers and a smaller hitbox would not fix the problem. Demon's Souls had servers maintained by an AWESOME company, but the backstabs still felt unearned at times.

    Its not the hitbox that is the problem imo, its the "tail". If servers erased the tail I'd be all for it, I just have my doubts. :|

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    Re: Here's to hoping they greatly narrow the backstab hitbox for DKS II

    Post by xRamenatorx on Mon May 20, 2013 11:19 am

    Ive spammed lb, or block, before for fun and block 80percent of the damage haha. Also, while not spamming, i do insta block against attacks. You can press lb every 1/4 of a second by the way. And when they give up on their bs attempt for an attack or magic you can still parry or roll away. Again ive spammed lb for the funny animation and blocking, rolling, and parrying werent really hindered. I like the less damage and smaller hitbox idea. Poise bs wouldnt be so nice anymore. Warping backstabs are still a problem though
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    Re: Here's to hoping they greatly narrow the backstab hitbox for DKS II

    Post by O1va_ on Mon May 20, 2013 11:33 am

    Animaaal wrote:
    O1va_ wrote: Haha, of course you can keep blocking if other person is attacking, no-one forces you to drop your guard. It doesn't take that long to discover is your opponent going for BS or just attacking. And most of the things you listed are a bad idea to block to begin with, if I see pyrohand I'll dodge, cataliyst same thing. Now that falcion, please do come spamming and eat my riposte to the face. e: To your edit, most of the time I get backstabbed is me rolling away and getting sucked back to a BS, now if I had just tapped L1 before rolling...
    Ahhhh, now we're getting somewhere. Isn't that the probelm to begin with? No one who is serious about pvp has a problem with backstabs outside of the "tele-stab" aka getting sucked into a backstab while rolling. This would offer a solution. As far as a bad idea to begin with...what is? Kicking? Using combustions? How are you gonna parry when your stunlocked because you dropped your guard while spamming block? I think you might be assuming 1/4 second is longer than it is. A lot of weapons swing time IS a 1/4 second, which means your roll bs punish would still work. Push block to try and cast?....Same thing. Again, saying that if you spam block you would gain some sort of backstab immunity...so what? You'd be an easy target. If your spamming block, you're not doing what is required to stay alive.
    It works both ways. I've been forest hunting recently, and I know I'm the one telestabbing the gankers, and I'd be screwed if I couldn't do that. If they get to reduce the lag to DS2 so much that you get to react to a BS attemps even easier than now, theres no way to get those BSs as only thing your opponent would need is to tap L1. 2v1s would become a serious pain in the donkey. I wrote "And most of the things you listed are a bad idea to block", so no, I don't think using kick and combustions are bad idea. You need 31 poise to not get stunlocked by 2h falcion, I have at least that allways, so no stunlock. If I happen to miss the opportunity to parry the second swing I can allways block. And even if that fails theres toggle escape. What I meant was the ½ sec invisibility (as I wrote). The 1/4 second really is fast I agree, so fast that I would like to know how that would benefit you even if you didn't spam block? I mean if it's too fast to use for my advantage how would it benefit anyone in any situation?

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    Re: Here's to hoping they greatly narrow the backstab hitbox for DKS II

    Post by Animaaal on Mon May 20, 2013 11:46 am

    xRamenatorx wrote:Ive spammed lb, or block, before for fun and block 80percent of the damage haha. Also, while not spamming, i do insta block against attacks. You can press lb every 1/4 of a second by the way. And when they give up on their bs attempt for an attack or magic you can still parry or roll away. Again ive spammed lb for the funny animation and blocking, rolling, and parrying werent really hindered. I like the less damage and smaller hitbox idea. Poise bs wouldnt be so nice anymore. Warping backstabs are still a problem though
    You weren't fighting anyone worth fighting imo. If someone couldn't punish you for that behavior they deserve to lose imo. Also, "insta-blocking" doesn't work on dead angles. I can't believe they didn't just kick you lol. If warping backstabs are a problem (which they are), this might be the only solution, again, thats only if the servers dont work...which they might not. I'd prefer it if they did work, but the past says they wont. Shrug
    O1va_ wrote:...I mean if it's too fast to use for my advantage how would it benefit anyone in any situation?...
    Tap and roll. As far as gankers...well... Shrug As far as having 31 poise, thats exactly my point. You wouldn't be spamming block, you'd be tanking a hit and then parrying. Whether its a 1/4 sec or 1/2 second (not sure which would work better) is just fodder for the concept. The only backstabs that are broke are the vacuum-stabs...this would (or could possibly) fix that problem. I dont see any counter-arguements about spamming block that contradict the theory. Doing a "rapid-fire block" trying to obtain backstab immunity will get you killed against any seasoned pvper.
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    Re: Here's to hoping they greatly narrow the backstab hitbox for DKS II

    Post by O1va_ on Mon May 20, 2013 11:58 am

    Animaaal wrote:Tap and roll. As far as gankers...well... As far as having 31 poise, thats exactly my point. You wouldn't be spamming block, you'd be tanking a hit and then parrying. Whether its a 1/4 sec or 1/2 second (not sure which would work better) is just fodder for the concept. The only backstabs that are broke are the vacuum-stabs...this would (or could possibly) fix that problem. I dont see any counter-arguements about spamming block that contradict the theory. Doing a "rapid-fire block" trying to obtain backstab immunity will get you killed against any seasoned pvper.
    But how are you gonna BS anyone? I mean if they manage to reduce lag and, as I was hoping, narrow the BS window you could just tap L1 everytime someone did a BS attempt. You can tell attempted BS almost everytime even with the lag we're having right now. And I really think you don't realize how fast the block animation is when tapped, you can continue what ever you were doing instantly. Theres no recovery time. Or maybe you just think that it can't be exploited and I think it can lol What I'm saying that the more mechanics they add, more possible exploits there are.

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    Re: Here's to hoping they greatly narrow the backstab hitbox for DKS II

    Post by xRamenatorx on Mon May 20, 2013 12:07 pm

    @Animaaal ive used this tactic on many great players. Dont assume they sucked. Where did dead angling come from? You cant block a dead angle whether you insta block or just hold lb; this isnt relevant to the backstab discussion. I was hust pointing out that spamming lb isnt as bad as you may think. Also when i spammee lb i didnt do it for long periods of time :p also like i said it blocked almost every attack including kicks.

    If the bs animation was delayed at the beginning then thatd give time for the other console to see that the person being backstabbed rollled away in time and start up a cancel animation (a grapple, etc) that results in neither player taking damage and jumping away from one another
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    Re: Here's to hoping they greatly narrow the backstab hitbox for DKS II

    Post by Cronotis on Mon May 20, 2013 12:14 pm

    Yes to narrowing the hit-box

    No to complete removal


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    Re: Here's to hoping they greatly narrow the backstab hitbox for DKS II

    Post by Animaaal on Mon May 20, 2013 2:13 pm

    O1va_ wrote: But how are you gonna BS anyone? I mean if they manage to reduce lag and, as I was hoping, narrow the BS window you could just tap L1 everytime someone did a BS attempt. You can tell attempted BS almost everytime even with the lag we're having right now. And I really think you don't realize how fast the block animation is when tapped, you can continue what ever you were doing instantly. Theres no recovery time. Or maybe you just think that it can't be exploited and I think it can lol What I'm saying that the more mechanics they add, more possible exploits there are.

    Underlined 1) I guess we're hoping for the same thing, but I'm just more pessimistic.

    Underlined 2) Ya, but you have to do something at some point. You have to attack, cast, something. 1/4 or hell 1/16 of a second isn't enough time to really effect any strategies or gameplay styles that exist I wouldn't think.

    U3) I do, been using "insta-block" for a long time.

    U4) Thats the thing, no you can't. Take a weapon like the Claymore for instance. Its standard swing is longer than a "jiffy" anyway...plenty of time to roll bs.

    About last part) True, so true, it just seems worth it to me. I can think of a million ways to punish someone trying to exploit a mechanic like this...but I've been thinking about it for a looong time too.

    Also, this is just an idea if the server/smaller hitbox thing doesn't work out. If the "lag-tail" goes from being like a cat tail to a Doberman Pincher thats been "snipped" then I'd be cool with it.

    I'd also be more inclined to jump on that bandwagon if Atlus was gonna take control of the servers again. I'd prefer the proposed fix everyone wants but...ah screw it. I'm just paranoid. I have little faith in Bamco.

    PS-You gotta admit (without the "no-lag" hopes we all have) the more you think about it, the more it grows on ya. lol

    xRamenatorx wrote:...I was hust pointing out that spamming lb isnt as bad as you may think...

    I'm sorry it. Its a horrible tactic. Wont change my mind. There is no benefit from rapidfire L1....there just isn't. I stand by my statement like a rock...sorry dude. Shrug

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    Re: Here's to hoping they greatly narrow the backstab hitbox for DKS II

    Post by xRamenatorx on Mon May 20, 2013 2:17 pm

    Duh spamming lb is stupid when compared to standard blocking or my word i like to use- insta blocking. Im just pointing out that rapid fireing lb wouldnt be as hindering if your backstab lb was implemented. Though i still dont like that solution at the moment

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    Re: Here's to hoping they greatly narrow the backstab hitbox for DKS II

    Post by Animaaal on Mon May 20, 2013 2:29 pm

    Rapid fire blocking is as bad as I think. Insta-blocks have been around forever, so I doubt its your word, and they have to be well timed, as you apparently already know.

    Which is why I find the "I've used this tactic 80%" or whatever it was very peculiar... :suspect:

    Someone who would use it to try and obtain backstab immunity would be impedeing their own playstyle in favor of the opponent.

    The only time it would have any use would be block-->roll. It would still get you backstabbed in hard humanity heals, ill-timed castings, etcetcetc.

    Just forget it,I'm not sure if this is off-topic and derailing anymore.

    Besides, I'm borderline ready to use the word stupid for the whole "rapid-fire" block thing.

    peace out, :roll:

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    Re: Here's to hoping they greatly narrow the backstab hitbox for DKS II

    Post by xRamenatorx on Mon May 20, 2013 2:50 pm

    I believe youre being a bwby xD. You read my thing wrong i said rapid fire blocks 80 percent of attacks usually even if youre doing it at random. All im saying is that when you see a backstab attempt you could just spam lb and if they tricked you and attacked instead you have a high success rate of blocking even that.

    You shouldnt have given those scenarios thqt back you up such as healing because they dont answer my arguement. I could easily say that in some situations youll have time to oress lb after a cast or heal. Just scenarios. Also my argument is that spamming lb gives back stab immunity.

    Even average pvpers can see a backstab attempt and will spam lb accordingly since it doesnt hinder movement. Spamming lb wont be fir blockng but in the cgance your oppenent attacks instead of backstabs soamming lb gives you a good chance of blocking thqt attack aswell.

    The lb button isnt a great idea. Changing the button from lb to A and maybe doing an anti bacjstab animation instead of just gaining immunity my be better. Though changing the button from lb would still make "your idea" (pressing a button for immunity/anti bs has already been said) much better


    Last edited by xRamenatorx on Mon May 20, 2013 3:02 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: Here's to hoping they greatly narrow the backstab hitbox for DKS II

    Post by Animaaal on Mon May 20, 2013 2:59 pm

    xRamenatorx wrote:...All im saying is that when you see a backstab attempt you could just spam lb and if they tricked you and attacked instead you have a high success rate of blocking even that....

    Thats where the dead angle comment comes into play...

    And sorry bro, but a good player wont fall for that crap. 80% is ridiculously high, and again I woulda just kicked you.

    Make the arguement all you want, but the rapidfire block thing is not feasible against a good player, you know it and so do i.

    Again, I'm sure there is a drawback, but this aint one of em.

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    Re: Here's to hoping they greatly narrow the backstab hitbox for DKS II

    Post by xRamenatorx on Mon May 20, 2013 3:07 pm

    I edited my previous post.

    How would you dead angle me? If im spamming lb it wont be for long. Not enough time for you to msnuever around me. Also read my edit above. People would only spam lb when they see a bs attempt.

    Also you getting stuck on this rapid fire lb being a tactic in a fight. No, you need to listen, im saying rqoid firing lb would provide backstab immunity (when needed) and provide a high chance of blocking physical attacks if youre spamming lb to stop a foreseen bs but simply misinterperated a running attack.

    As of roght now (without your lb backstab "fix") rapid firing block is stupod in a match and nothing but a troll. But again im not talking about fights as they are now

    Also im pretty awesome at this game. I can spam lb if i wanted to against a good player :p

    Edit: also stop quoting only pieces of my arguement and not getting the whole arguement and using pieces along with "..." to make my qoute look good for you. Take the whole arguement. If you said "i dont suck at pvp"i could easily quote you to say "i...suck at pvp"

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    Re: Here's to hoping they greatly narrow the backstab hitbox for DKS II

    Post by Animaaal on Mon May 20, 2013 3:17 pm

    Ah, shield pokes with a rapier and a spear is the weakness. Its hard to roll bs those against a good player anyway, but that would add a dimension to that tactic that would make it a lot better than it is.

    As far as the dead angle thing...

    You'd be increasing the chances of a successful dead angle, or simply replace it with a successful hit.

    Also, I'm only addressing certain parts of your quote because those are the only parts I want to address.

    I'm not editing what you said. Saying that I'm changing the wording of what you're saying is ridiculous and I'm not doing that.

    Lastly, I'm not trying to "look good"..I couldn't care less. I'm trying to hear a rationale argument, or as you so eloquently put it..."being a baby sad "

    Cool story bro.
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    Re: Here's to hoping they greatly narrow the backstab hitbox for DKS II

    Post by reim0027 on Mon May 20, 2013 3:22 pm

    wretchedsausage wrote:Many great points have been brought up so far. I personally think that they will need to change BS quite a lot.

    1. Hopefully having server-based multiplayer will help to remove the lagstabs that are the bane of dark souls.

    2. The hitbox for backstabs should be reduced, but not as to make them incredibly difficult to perform.

    3. backstab damage should be much lower, with only a 15~20% increase in damage.

    4. Backstab animation should be shortened if possible, as they ruin the pace of the game.

    5. Some sort of reliable counter system needs to be implemented so that people dont have to rely on latency to allow them to counter.

    6. I believe that if there is a hornet ring equivalent in DKSII, this too needs to be scaled down, perhaps increasing backstabs by 20~30%.

    Whilst I understand that not everyone will agree with me, I think that my suggestions would greatly help to enrich DKSII multiplayer, and most likely do away with backstab fishers, when the damage is far from OHKO caliber.

    I would love to hear what everybody thinks about these proposed ideas.
    1. Don't know, but you make it sound good. cheers

    2. Completely agree. The hitbox difficulty should be on par with the damage boost.

    3. Completely disagree. BS damage is fine. Just make it harder to do. We can't go around nerfing things that do a lot of damage. See #2.

    4. I see both sides of this, but I do prefer the shorter BS animation (but the longer parry animation).

    5. What do you mean by that? Wouldn't latency make a reliable counter impossible? Or are you referring to an anti-backstab miracle/ring or the "no bs when shield is on the back" line of thought?

    6. Completely disagree. HR is nothing but a buff. And, it uses up a valuable ring slot. A DMB-buffed weapon is more dangerous than a HR weapon. Take the rapier for example. Crap damage for R1 and R2. Easily blocked. It's BS with HR is lower than a BS from a Great Club. HR is a valuable ring and is not overpowered, especially if #2 is put into place.

    TL;DR: BS damage should reflect difficulty to pull off. Personally, I like the damage and want it harder to pull off (making it more rewarding and less spammable).


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    Re: Here's to hoping they greatly narrow the backstab hitbox for DKS II

    Post by xRamenatorx on Mon May 20, 2013 3:24 pm



    I suck.

    Lol, i edited that. Dont take any offense just showing xD

    I never said you were trying to look good.

    Also i mean your taking a piece of my argument but i counter/answer your arguement (that you post after my arguement) later or before in that same post

    Rapier turtles would be a flaw in your method but by that logic any fast weapon with a shield would be a flaw. They each still have the power to tap lb real quick after a swing even if you roll bs.
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    Re: Here's to hoping they greatly narrow the backstab hitbox for DKS II

    Post by reim0027 on Mon May 20, 2013 3:27 pm

    Who are you talking about?


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    Re: Here's to hoping they greatly narrow the backstab hitbox for DKS II

    Post by xRamenatorx on Mon May 20, 2013 3:28 pm

    Yea definitely lower bs damage and maybe dont make buffs quite as strong. Though magic stacking would be the new backstab xD. Fix stacking items aswell maybe. Idk haha

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    Re: Here's to hoping they greatly narrow the backstab hitbox for DKS II

    Post by xRamenatorx on Mon May 20, 2013 3:30 pm

    reim0027 wrote:Who are you talking about?

    If your talking to me i quoted animal but left his name out cause i edited his qoute to troll him lol. Just a laugh.

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    Re: Here's to hoping they greatly narrow the backstab hitbox for DKS II

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      Current date/time is Sat Aug 19, 2017 4:34 am