Here's to hoping they greatly narrow the backstab hitbox for DKS II

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    Re: Here's to hoping they greatly narrow the backstab hitbox for DKS II

    Post by Jansports on Mon May 13, 2013 5:28 pm

    Critical attacks were in Demons And are a large part of the Souls combat experience. When you first start out criticals are hard to do, they get easier as you learn and improve, and you get rewarded viscerally for it with great damage and a bit of respite from the mobs assaulting you.

    You can fish for them, punish with them, counter fish them. In PvP they create another layer of depths to the footsie and spacing game. They are one of very few ways to reliably stop animation from huge poise builds.

    I think the easy to understand reward for learning in PvE and the Depth they add to PvP make backstabs a vital part of the game, as the souls games are primarily driven by the sense of accomplishment one gets for learning and improving in PvE (something backstabs/ripostes contribute to meaningfully) And the longevity of the PvP scene is primarily driven by the complex nature of decision making in combat, a complexity enhanced by the existence of critical attacks.
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    Re: Here's to hoping they greatly narrow the backstab hitbox for DKS II

    Post by KrazykevS10 on Mon May 13, 2013 5:31 pm

    I have a pretty simple solution actually.Just change backstabs so that to get a backstab,you have to be behind them on THEIR screen,not just yours.It nerfs BS fishing,keeps punishes and eliminates lagstabs completely.


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    Re: Here's to hoping they greatly narrow the backstab hitbox for DKS II

    Post by reim0027 on Mon May 13, 2013 5:33 pm

    Is that even possible to do though? For the game to know where you are on someone else's screen?


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    Re: Here's to hoping they greatly narrow the backstab hitbox for DKS II

    Post by steveswede on Mon May 13, 2013 5:34 pm

    Rynn wrote:You're using a falacy in that argument by saying "We might as well do X or Y, ecause it's pretty much the same thing". No, removing multiplayer is completely different. Don't say stupid things, they don't help your point.

    I said it because you were saying stupid things (it was sarcasm). You are saying stupid things because you are complaining about PvP issues in a PvE game. BS would not be an issue to people like you if multiplayer wasn't there, elemental weapons wouldn't be an issue to some people if it was just a PvE game. Your arguments are based from a PvP perspective much like the people complaining about elemental weapons, I have never heard a genuine complaint why BS ruin PvE.

    Stop treating DkS like Street fighter, it is not a fighting game, it's balance is in relation to the player vs their world.
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    Re: Here's to hoping they greatly narrow the backstab hitbox for DKS II

    Post by KrazykevS10 on Mon May 13, 2013 5:38 pm

    reim0027 wrote:Is that even possible to do though? For the game to know where you are on someone else's screen?
    The P2P thing relies on your consoles communicating with each other,pretty much telling each other what is going on.That's why you see an elemental effect and hit noise happen if you strike someone who just rolled for zero damage.Your console says it hit him,their console says otherwise.You just alter that concept a little.


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    Re: Here's to hoping they greatly narrow the backstab hitbox for DKS II

    Post by Soris Ice Goldwing on Mon May 13, 2013 5:40 pm

    Just how can that be implemented Krazy? I'm am not insulting you rather I am interested in this idea you have.


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    Re: Here's to hoping they greatly narrow the backstab hitbox for DKS II

    Post by ResIsBestStat on Mon May 13, 2013 5:42 pm

    Why do people always complain about backstabbing?
    Lagstabs are really stupid i know, but it's your fault if you let yourself be fished instead of trying to counter dudes fishing.
    Hornet ring also isn't OP in my opinion, they already nerfed it to 30% percent damage, what do you want? Only 10% Damage?
    Get good in pvp and backstabs will never hurt you.
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    Re: Here's to hoping they greatly narrow the backstab hitbox for DKS II

    Post by KrazykevS10 on Mon May 13, 2013 5:51 pm

    I don't know the specifics but basically just slightly change hit detection for backstabs.As it is now,my Xbox tells your Xbox I'm stabbing you,no matter how far away you are standing,your Xbox just agrees and you teleport back and get stabbed.Just change that so your Xbox is like awww hell nawwww!


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    Re: Here's to hoping they greatly narrow the backstab hitbox for DKS II

    Post by Rynn on Mon May 13, 2013 5:52 pm

    steveswede wrote:
    Rynn wrote:You're using a falacy in that argument by saying "We might as well do X or Y, ecause it's pretty much the same thing". No, removing multiplayer is completely different. Don't say stupid things, they don't help your point.

    I said it because you were saying stupid things (it was sarcasm). You are saying stupid things because you are complaining about PvP issues in a PvE game. BS would not be an issue to people like you if multiplayer wasn't there, elemental weapons wouldn't be an issue to some people if it was just a PvE game. Your arguments are based from a PvP perspective much like the people complaining about elemental weapons, I have never heard a genuine complaint why BS ruin PvE.

    Stop treating DkS like Street fighter, it is not a fighting game, it's balance is in relation to the player vs their world.
    You could not be more wrong on my stance here, which to me indicates you don't understand my motivations at all. I'd like to bring you a quote a saved a while ago. It'll be easier then speaking to walls again.

    bla wrote:To answer the topic:

    In my opinion backstabs add respite in a game that should only offer it in bonfires

    In PVE it makes for some repetition.

    There are reasons to dislike this mechanic, but for me, whats really annoying is the "stop everything, I'm doing a backstab" aspect.
    In close combat (real or not) getting behind your opponent is an advantage and the opponent should be punished for allowing so. However, consider how this happens in dark souls:
    You're facing a guy with an ultra greatsword, he swings and misses by a mile, you're behind him and the inevitable happens. Problem is, you're wielding a great hammer.
    Now, I don't even appreciate the immediacy of the backstab mechanic with a dagger almost like a freeze button but doing it with a huge weapon just feels incredibly silly.
    Yes, we're talking about a game where you can block attacks that would shatter worlds, not to mention your character, but somehow that's a lot more believable than "backstabing" with smough's hammer.
    That infested barbarian is swinging his club. I'm behind him but the swing is still gonna clip me a bit: no problem, just interrupt his attack with a backstab... he even stops his mad dash just for me. :shock:

    In combat evasion is an art form but in dark souls said art is unbalanced. A guy swings his halberd in PVP while the other guy sidesteps. There is an opening for a successful attack. If there was no backstab but simply increased damage from a back attack a player would ponder: should I waste precious microseconds trying to go for extra damage or just strike with something that is sure to land.
    As it stands in dark souls, that doesn't apply because an attack from the side performs as it's supposed to whereas the backstab "ignores" the rules. There is no wind up to an attack and weapons all perform alike barring critical damage. It's actually safer to go for the back because the attack is immediate.
    Without this mechanic sneak attacks and back attacks would actually see a lot more action from weapons that are supposed to perform them like say a dagger, so yeah for me back attacks just detract from one of the best games I've ever played.

    Just go for increased damage, poise break, knockdown, anything but that fixed animation.
    Or hell, use it but make it act like a normal attack with normal windup that lands spectacularly and doesn't make you invincible.

    I have always felt PvE is ruined by Backstabs. Long before i got into PvP I've felt backstabs are a horridly implemented design choice in Dark Souls. This is irregardless of how they impact PvP.

    Do not insult me with statements like "people like you" when you don't know what people I represent. Not only is the phrasing a negative choice, that invokes negative reaction, but it's not accurate in this occasion.

    Why is everyone so hostile to opinions these days :suspect:
    this conversation went over fine back in december.

    Quote the raven.
    Rynn wrote:While these are all avoidable, it raises the question... Why is a feature that is never used appropriately, in PvE or PvP situations, and rather adds a frustrating and downright unfair tactic to our arsenals included in the game?
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    Re: Here's to hoping they greatly narrow the backstab hitbox for DKS II

    Post by phastings on Mon May 13, 2013 6:34 pm

    I think you are right to say removing it would take away from the game. Instead of throwing t out, they should simply fix it to not be so exploitable with external influences such as lag and camera angle manipulation.

    - I also think that if they add a mechanic where when your shield is set to passive on back while 2 handing a weapon, back stabs are negated. Atleast maybe make the hotbox smaller. They should also make backstabs more consequential if you fail to land one, as it is so easy to pull off now and can be a one hit kill with the right equipment.


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    Re: Here's to hoping they greatly narrow the backstab hitbox for DKS II

    Post by Animaaal on Mon May 13, 2013 6:37 pm

    crbngville2 wrote:Backstabs existed in DeS and have been carried forward to DkS. Removing backstabs IMO changes too many of the existing mechanics. Getting rid of P2P will go a long way to reducing lag and the associated problems it causes with the backstab mechanics. I have no problem with the hitbox window being made smaller, but overall the backstab needs to left in the game and without a huge amount of reworking it.

    I agree. It would change the game. However, dedicated servers will not fix the problem like people think. If Atlus was running the show again......I'd be more optimistic.

    POSSIBLE SOLUTION (dime a dozen):

    You guys know the hollow thieves backstab animation in the Lower Burg??? What about something like that?

    Say it does minimal damage and decent d.o.t. for 50% of your health...kinda like poison/toxic?

    OR

    A 2-3 button sequence you could input to "evade" the backstab. Something similar to the grappling a lot of people would liketo see.

    However, if nothing is done and "tele-stabs" still exist in DkS2, then I'm all for removing them. Pvp wouldn't suffer,but speed run PVE would.

    Can anyone imagine farming chunks without backstabs???? I'd actually support the bb glitch if that were the case.

    I hope a smaller hitbox and servers will fix it, but the past says it won't.
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    Re: Here's to hoping they greatly narrow the backstab hitbox for DKS II

    Post by Zeta Prime on Mon May 13, 2013 7:03 pm

    Stop treating DkS like Street fighter, it is not a fighting game, it's balance is in relation to the player vs their world.

    Dark souls is whatever the player wants it to be.. for me dark souls is my street fighter.. maybe it isn't for you but i can tell you that everyone gets a different kind of enjoyment from the games they play. Dark souls has many aspects to it and trying to brush on off is unfair and rather self-absorbed.

    I think backstabs have become an imprtant part of the series... that being said they can be totally unfair. some options i see are to remove te invincibility you aquire when preforming the backstab making it a more tactical move in PvE and some PvP situations. Another i think is to be rid of the Hornets ring... people found it fun in Darksouls but i think the community would agree that we don't need a repeat of this. The Hitbox problem goes withoout saying.. The lag is a different matter altogther that we can't forsee or relly even try to fix.

    maybe the entir backstab would be taken away nd it wouldchange pper weapon class. fr example, usng a straightsword your backstab would bea quick slash down an oppnentsback, but this does not throwthem the floor, rather it stuns them for a second until your animation i done and then they turn around..... writing to much.. my ideas are geting dumb.. laters.


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    Re: Here's to hoping they greatly narrow the backstab hitbox for DKS II

    Post by steveswede on Mon May 13, 2013 7:32 pm

    Poliwrath wrote:
    Stop treating DkS like Street fighter, it is not a fighting game, it's balance is in relation to the player vs their world.

    Dark souls is whatever the player wants it to be.. for me dark souls is my street fighter.. maybe it isn't for you but i can tell you that everyone gets a different kind of enjoyment from the games they play. Dark souls has many aspects to it and trying to brush on off is unfair and rather self-absorbed.

    To put things into a bit of perspective for you, the game is designed around you going from one check point to another through levels (or areas if you like), beating varied enemies with a boss at the end of each level. That is the main theme of this series. All these PvP areas and self imposed rules was built from the community. It's nothing to do with me being self absorbed, it's to do with the fact that PvE comes first from the developers eyes and all I'm doing is pointing that out. Some people fail to see that or in some cases believe that PvP gameplay should take centre stage from PvE. This is why I say it's not Street Fighter. I understand that BS are not fun for some people that PvP but wanting to alter something without thinking how it will affect PvE first hasn't got this series interest at heart.

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    Re: Here's to hoping they greatly narrow the backstab hitbox for DKS II

    Post by Animaaal on Mon May 13, 2013 7:40 pm

    Imo, the pvp communtiy was a "happy accident" in Demon's Souls.

    FROM had no idea it was coming.

    If you look at the pvp game style progressions from Demon's to Dark, you'll see they were intentional.

    I believe the same amount of progression will apply in Dark Souls 2, and that pvp is a crucial part of the series now, and will be from hear on out.

    I dont think Dark Souls 2 would be released without an online, co-op, pvp function.

    Pvp and co-op = souls.

    My 2 sense.
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    Re: Here's to hoping they greatly narrow the backstab hitbox for DKS II

    Post by steveswede on Mon May 13, 2013 7:50 pm

    Animaaal wrote:If you look at the pvp game style progressions from Demon's to Dark, you'll see they were intentional.

    This is really debatable. On one hand you have the dragon covenant which was done for the purpose of 1v1 pvp. But on the other hand the PvP arena was a tacked on after thought to single player DLC.

    No doubt more effort was put into DkS PvP to DeS, it's just that it still comes across as an afterthought. We shall see how much Fromsoft care for PvP when the next game comes out. If the improvements are still minor, I think it's safe to say that FromSoft don't think it's something that important.

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    Re: Here's to hoping they greatly narrow the backstab hitbox for DKS II

    Post by Animaaal on Mon May 13, 2013 7:59 pm

    steveswede wrote:
    Animaaal wrote:If you look at the pvp game style progressions from Demon's to Dark, you'll see they were intentional.

    This is really debatable. On one hand you have the dragon covenant which was done for the purpose of 1v1 pvp. But on the other hand the PvP arena was a tacked on after thought to single player DLC.

    No doubt more effort was put into DkS PvP to DeS, it's just that it still comes across as an afterthought. We shall see how much Fromsoft care for PvP when the next game comes out. If the improvements are still minor, I think it's safe to say that FromSoft don't think it's something that important.

    There is a lot of additions that were meant for pvp though:

    -Covenants in general

    -Allowing more invaders/phantoms

    -Shield balance, imo that was for pvp.

    -Worldwide connections.

    -Of course the arena like you said.

    I completely agree with the last 2 sentences in their entirety.

    Thing I cant wrap my head around (and gives weight to your point of view) is why was there no "Old Monk" boss in Dark Souls??? It was an awesome pvp idea/mechanic.

    But ya you're right, time will tell for sure. I was just sayin pvp and co-op were obviously taken into consideration more heavily in Dark Souls, than in Demon's...

    ...but then there's the visibility manipulation in Demon's Souls....well I guess Dark Souls kinda had that until they patched it. Wasn't quite the same though.
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    Re: Here's to hoping they greatly narrow the backstab hitbox for DKS II

    Post by Elifia on Mon May 13, 2013 8:23 pm

    steveswede wrote:I understand that BS are not fun for some people that PvP but wanting to alter something without thinking how it will affect PvE first hasn't got this series interest at heart.

    So how exactly will it affect PvE then? All you said against removing backstabs was some stuff about defending from invaders (which is PvP), defeating higher SL players (also PvP) and dealing with multiple mobs (I'll address that in a second).

    Right now, when I'm PvEing, practically everything I do is circle around enemies until they attack and I can do a backstab. It's by far the most effective way of dealing with mobs, but it does not make for very interesting gameplay.

    As for the multiple mobs: Why did you pull that many mobs? You probably should have been more careful and pull them 1 by 1. If that wasn't possible, then you should see if you can find some narrow passage where they can only fight you 1 at a time. Point is, there are loads of ways to deal with multiple mobs that do not involve backstabs.


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    Re: Here's to hoping they greatly narrow the backstab hitbox for DKS II

    Post by Animaaal on Mon May 13, 2013 8:34 pm

    I would HATE farming anything without backstabs without some sort of compensation....with a passion.
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    Re: Here's to hoping they greatly narrow the backstab hitbox for DKS II

    Post by Dibsville on Mon May 13, 2013 8:36 pm

    They need a 359degree hitbox for backstabbing.


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    Re: Here's to hoping they greatly narrow the backstab hitbox for DKS II

    Post by steveswede on Mon May 13, 2013 8:37 pm

    Elifia wrote:So how exactly will it affect PvE then? All you said against removing backstabs was some stuff about defending from invaders (which is PvP), defeating higher SL players (also PvP) and dealing with multiple mobs (I'll address that in a second).

    Right now, when I'm PvEing, practically everything I do is circle around enemies until they attack and I can do a backstab. It's by far the most effective way of dealing with mobs, but it does not make for very interesting gameplay.

    As for the multiple mobs: Why did you pull that many mobs? You probably should have been more careful and pull them 1 by 1. If that wasn't possible, then you should see if you can find some narrow passage where they can only fight you 1 at a time. Point is, there are loads of ways to deal with multiple mobs that do not involve backstabs.

    Do I really need to explain this to you? I take it you're experienced with the mechanics of Dark Souls so you should be able to think of many situations with each enemy you can backstab. I really can't be arsed to run through each enemy, situation or skill level if you already know it.
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    Re: Here's to hoping they greatly narrow the backstab hitbox for DKS II

    Post by Elifia on Mon May 13, 2013 9:12 pm

    steveswede wrote:Do I really need to explain this to you? I take it you're experienced with the mechanics of Dark Souls so you should be able to think of many situations with each enemy you can backstab. I really can't be arsed to run through each enemy, situation or skill level if you already know it.

    Well, on my first playthrough I hadn't even figured out how to backstab yet, so I can say without a doubt that every enemy can be beaten easily enough without backstabs. I've watched Ghostrobo's first playthrough too, and I don't think he really backstabbed anything either. Learning how to backstab has just made it so that pretty much all mobs are laughably easy to defeat.


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    Re: Here's to hoping they greatly narrow the backstab hitbox for DKS II

    Post by ExplodingPenguin on Tue May 14, 2013 1:05 am

    I think you should be able to get armour/capes that at least nullify a lot of the backstab damage, but they break in a few strikes. Or at least you can WotG someone when they are knifing you hehehe


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    Re: Here's to hoping they greatly narrow the backstab hitbox for DKS II

    Post by xRamenatorx on Tue May 14, 2013 1:29 am

    Try playing in an FC that DOESNT allow backstabs. I dont like it. Wont go into each individual situation but the players played sloppier and more unskilled than usual due to no punishment mechanic (pvp). There definitely needs to be some extra critical dmg, other than ripotose so you have to fear ranged criticals (roll bs or sidestep bs), for back hits. Simply adding in extra damage but no animation for back hits would be pointless because people could still spam their way through/out if it. Keep the animation but do something such as being vunerable to other enemies besides the one youre bsing (other ppl have suggested stuff already-no need for more redundancy if thats a word)

    I agree that backstabs make PvE a "joke" in some cases. Do you have to bs- no but its hella easier. Though based on the DkS2 gameplay it seems the developers are putting more thought into bs in PvE- in other words "Anti-bs enemies", or anti-bs functions that may be made available to the player

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    Re: Here's to hoping they greatly narrow the backstab hitbox for DKS II

    Post by Animaaal on Tue May 14, 2013 1:36 am

    I say 1/2 second backstab immunity for pressing block.....think about it :suspect: ...anyone?
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    Re: Here's to hoping they greatly narrow the backstab hitbox for DKS II

    Post by Maneater_Mildred on Tue May 14, 2013 1:44 am

    Said it before, will say it again, back stabs should only be available if your opponent is not locked onto you. This makes them great as a surprise attack and removes the bs dance....

    Edit... Kermit watching porn..... :shock:


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