"Advanced" tier weapons.

by Jansports Mon May 06, 2013 12:25 am

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Post n°26

Re: "Advanced" tier weapons.

Post by Jansports Mon May 06, 2013 12:25 am

IMO every weapon is an advanced weapon. Sure monkeys can play dark souls by grabbing a ton of Vit and Havels + GT. But that really isn't the height of Curved sword skill. There is a certain finesse unique to each weapon. I personally think the easiest weapon in the world to use is my DGM, just wait around for a trade, and win all day. But even that requires patience and a little bit( a lotta bit) of prediction.

While I wont say some weapons are not easier to succeed with in random invasions and such but even the easiest to use weapon has literal oceans of difference in performance comparing the very very skilled and the mediocre.

by Animaaal Mon May 06, 2013 12:49 am

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Post n°27

Re: "Advanced" tier weapons.

Post by Animaaal Mon May 06, 2013 12:49 am

-Demon's Slayer Spear's "special attack" was something I always respected. Felt like a noob on those for sure.

-Great Bows like Saint said.

-Gargoyle Tail Axe R2 is pro as he||.

-And then of course using Force in the middle of spell combos is pro. 8)

by ErrJon6661 Mon May 06, 2013 12:55 am

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Post n°28

Re: "Advanced" tier weapons.

Post by ErrJon6661 Mon May 06, 2013 12:55 am

RenegadeCop wrote:Broken Straight Sword.
Because goddamn, you would need a ton of skill to win with that.

add crystal magic weapon with 50int and the tcc and you've got yourself some angry opponents.

by hey its andres Mon May 06, 2013 1:00 am

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Post n°29

Re: "Advanced" tier weapons.

Post by hey its andres Mon May 06, 2013 1:00 am

Hey sorcery gets WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY more flak than katanas. I can duel someone with pryo/sorceries and maybe 60% of the time I get hate. DB is deadly up close, if you know I have it then don't rush me and spam and R1 :roll:

by Myztyrio Mon May 06, 2013 1:06 am

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Post n°30

Re: "Advanced" tier weapons.

Post by Myztyrio Mon May 06, 2013 1:06 am

Dibsville wrote:On the topic of Katanas and Zweihanders, I've been using this build for the past 3 days, and I'm loving it to death

Can I steal?

by ICEFANG Mon May 06, 2013 1:16 am

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Post n°31

Re: "Advanced" tier weapons.

Post by ICEFANG Mon May 06, 2013 1:16 am

PC is very different, I remember these conversations and seeing it first hand, so many people.... are noobs. I haven't even seen a curved sword and very few Katana, still, action is pretty limited overall, so I don't have a huge sample size.

I see a few spears, a lot of great and ultra greatswords, more rapier class weapons than spears. Almost no dark magic (I prefer lower levels to be fair), rarely sorcery, less rarely pyro, and anyone who uses actual miracles is usually spamming WotGs.

I've been surprised how heavy weapons are so common. I mean a Rapier is really good, and only 1.5.

"Advanced" tier weapons. - Page 2 3358384175

"Advanced" tier weapons. - Page 2 3358384175

I've been wrecking with spears. I've rarely used them before, used to use a Halberd a lot. How are spears now? I know they used to really be pretty much easy mode.

by Saturday-Saint Mon May 06, 2013 2:20 am

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Post n°32

Re: "Advanced" tier weapons.

Post by Saturday-Saint Mon May 06, 2013 2:20 am

Animaaal wrote:

Saturday-Saint wrote:...Katanas are one of the most impressive weapons to watch a good player use. They don't have dumb gimmicks, they lose trades with almost every other weapon in the game, their damage output is on the low end, etc. They overcome this by being very flexible and making excellent use of a players' understanding of fundamentals and mental presence...

....oh God, I almost fell outta my chair.

Saturday-Saint wrote:fundamental and intelligent play is undervalued among DkS PvP'ers, and the wide-spread hate of katanas reflects this.

Thanks, LMH, perfect example.

by Animaaal Mon May 06, 2013 2:45 am

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Post n°33

Re: "Advanced" tier weapons.

Post by Animaaal Mon May 06, 2013 2:45 am

Saturday-Saint wrote:...They don't have dumb gimmicks, they lose trades with almost every other weapon in the game, their damage output is on the low end...

aaaaaaaaand then the contradiction...

Saturday-Saint wrote:...Also katanas are difficult to punish which makes it easy for dumb players to get away with dumb things, but only against opponents below a certain skill level ...

So which is it, do they suck or are they great??? Well What is it

I tried to be funny and a little light-hearted towards one of the most ridiculous things I've read in Dark Souls,
but now I dont care...

YOU ARE COMPLETELY WRONG. Look Skyward

by hey its andres Mon May 06, 2013 3:04 am

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Post n°34

Re: "Advanced" tier weapons.

Post by hey its andres Mon May 06, 2013 3:04 am

Remember it's not the katana, it's the katanee

by Saturday-Saint Mon May 06, 2013 3:12 am

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Post n°35

Re: "Advanced" tier weapons.

Post by Saturday-Saint Mon May 06, 2013 3:12 am

Nothing I said is contradictory. They're top-tier weapons that are easy to learn and difficult to master.

by hey its andres Mon May 06, 2013 3:20 am

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Post n°36

Re: "Advanced" tier weapons.

Post by hey its andres Mon May 06, 2013 3:20 am

^that's what you meant, but it didn't really translate onto the keyboa Shrug

rd.

by Animaaal Mon May 06, 2013 3:23 am

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Post n°37

Re: "Advanced" tier weapons.

Post by Animaaal Mon May 06, 2013 3:23 am

Dumb gimmicks
-bleed, roll cancel...so what.
-Phantom damage.

Trading blows with almost every weapon in the game
-really?...REALLY?!?!?!

Low end damage
-According to what Smough's Hammer?...
-Term is called dps. "Damage Per Second"

And yes, I'd say what I quoted is an example of you condradicting yourself.

Nice try on cleaning it up though. However, this can be said about any weapon in the game:

Saturday-Saint wrote:...easy to learn and difficult to master...

He|| I can even say that about headshots.

by Jansports Mon May 06, 2013 3:28 am

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Post n°38

Re: "Advanced" tier weapons.

Post by Jansports Mon May 06, 2013 3:28 am

Every PvP thread eventually becomes a debate about a certain weapon.

EVERY SINGLE ONE

Yeah it's easy to DMB an Uchi and 2hr1 mediocre players.

No you cannot trade with most weapons with a katana, unless you know they are 1-2 swats from bleeding out. You think you can afford to take a BSS R2 with Leo? You want trade with DGM?

Read next section for funny anecdote about how I name weapons, skip if you don't care.

I have a friend who looks villianous. Like the evil baron that puts random ladies on train tracks, so of course most his friends call him "Baron" He play Magic the gathering(as do I) and is sort of infamous for how nefarious he is when trading, somehow he always comes out on top, like the house in vegas. Because of how I play with the DGM (trade all day) I have come to refer to the weapon when speaking casually as "the baron of vegas" okay back on topic.

I would here reiterate that EVERY SINGLE weapon is "advanced" as I know I'm not perfect with any of them, and I don't think anyone here has an ego audacious enough to claim they are perfect. We are all constantly improving and learning new techs and tricks with our chosen weapons. and it SHOWS.

@ Animaal of course you could say that about any weapon, that's kinda the point I'm making =P

by Animaaal Mon May 06, 2013 3:40 am

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Post n°39

Re: "Advanced" tier weapons.

Post by Animaaal Mon May 06, 2013 3:40 am

Jansports wrote:...No you cannot trade with most weapons with a katana, unless you know they are 1-2 swats from bleeding out. You think you can afford to take a BSS R2 with Leo? You want trade with DGM?...

Ok, but if we get into build oriented set ups, it would be a discussion about what build counters what.

Do I wanna trade hits with a BSS Leo? Idk, do I have 61 poise and they have 31? See what I'm sayin man?

Katanas are fast for their reach, their recovery time is great, they have good running attacks....there's really not a lot to NOT like about a katana.

Heck, I think a couple people even tried to make the arguement they have an advantage over...spears.... :suspect:

Also, the only reason I stated they got hate mail was because of their popularity, not because they are op.

I think the points Saturday tried to make about katanas are untrue however, that is all.

by hey its andres Mon May 06, 2013 3:46 am

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Post n°40

Re: "Advanced" tier weapons.

Post by hey its andres Mon May 06, 2013 3:46 am

You want a fun weapon? Obsidian Greatsword! Those duels never disappoint!

by Jansports Mon May 06, 2013 4:00 am

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Post n°41

Re: "Advanced" tier weapons.

Post by Jansports Mon May 06, 2013 4:00 am

I tend to assume a build isn't well...sucky when thinking about what works. I mean against a novice Any weapon will get the job done, a poorly made build just isn't something I consider. And any build with the Leo needs poise cause it's looking to trade at some level.

And I don't understand, you think saturday is wrong about katanas being difficult to use to their maximum effect? Because using Anything to it's literal maximum is a feat in and of itself

by Saturday-Saint Mon May 06, 2013 4:28 am

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Post n°42

Re: "Advanced" tier weapons.

Post by Saturday-Saint Mon May 06, 2013 4:28 am

Jansports wrote:I'm not perfect

Clearly not. If you were, you would not have been so foolish as to make this statement:

Jansports wrote:I don't think anyone here has an ego audacious enough to claim they are perfect.

by CarverUpqik Mon May 06, 2013 5:15 am

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Post n°43

Re: "Advanced" tier weapons.

Post by CarverUpqik Mon May 06, 2013 5:15 am

my opinion of a advanced weapon is the parrying dagger in the left hand, apparently the longer parrytime is supposed to make it easier to parry with but ive always parried pretty easy (even in pvp) with a shield but find it very hard to do with the dagger and with a shield if you attempt a parry and fail it will still partially block damage but the dagger doesnt. ive been practicing with the dagger in pve and pvp but still havent got it down real good

by Dibsville Mon May 06, 2013 9:04 am

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Post n°44

Re: "Advanced" tier weapons.

Post by Dibsville Mon May 06, 2013 9:04 am

Myztyrio wrote:

Dibsville wrote:On the topic of Katanas and Zweihanders, I've been using this build for the past 3 days, and I'm loving it to death

Can I steal?

Sure, why not.

CarverUpqik wrote:my opinion of a advanced weapon is the parrying dagger in the left hand, apparently the longer parrytime is supposed to make it easier to parry with but ive always parried pretty easy (even in pvp) with a shield but find it very hard to do with the dagger and with a shield if you attempt a parry and fail it will still partially block damage but the dagger doesnt. ive been practicing with the dagger in pve and pvp but still havent got it down real good

Parrying Dagger is a mind game. You think you have to parry earlier when in fact you still have to parry at the same time. At best in PvP, you'll get extra partial parries compared to shields. I used to use Parrying Dagger on my duel-wielding because I couldn't add any extra weight and it was the only way for me to parry, but I eventually revised it when I realised that the Dagger isn't very reliable for damage.

by Animaaal Mon May 06, 2013 2:42 pm

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Post n°45

Re: "Advanced" tier weapons.

Post by Animaaal Mon May 06, 2013 2:42 pm

Jansports wrote:...Every PvP thread eventually becomes a debate about a certain weapon.

EVERY SINGLE ONE...

Truest statement in thread. +1.

And also,

Animaaal wrote:...Katanas are one of the most impressive weapons to watch a good player use...

This was a statement made by Saturday. I poked fun at him a little regarding something else added to this statement.

The reason I bring it up is because with logical debate should come self-critique, hence, this was not meant to be underlined.

It says that I am criticizing someone’s preference of what they enjoy to watch, which is just dumb. I’m not going to edit my mistake, but rather apologize for the arrogance implied.

No one has a right to tell someone what they should or shouldn’t enjoy. Even ganking.

So, that was a mistake and I apologize for that mistake. Sorry dude.

by Forum Pirate Mon May 06, 2013 2:47 pm

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Post n°46

Re: "Advanced" tier weapons.

Post by Forum Pirate Mon May 06, 2013 2:47 pm

DPS is irrelivant most of the time, how quickly it deals poise damage matters more in spam contests and trades.

The katana can rarely afford to try to take advantage of that high dps because greatsword or ultra great sword combos will generally stun first, and follow up with a bs while they're at it.

Even against halberds/spears trading is generally a bad idea because halberds stun lock and leo spears will likely kill the kat user outright before they're stunned.

by Noob-of-Artorias Mon May 06, 2013 3:28 pm

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Post n°47

Re: "Advanced" tier weapons.

Post by Noob-of-Artorias Mon May 06, 2013 3:28 pm

Ricards Rapier

It takes a certain kind of badass to successfully pull of that R2 attack.

and with a buff? Forget about it!

by Animaaal Mon May 06, 2013 3:49 pm

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Post n°48

Re: "Advanced" tier weapons.

Post by Animaaal Mon May 06, 2013 3:49 pm

If an UGS user (especially after the patch) has 76 poise and a kat user has 76 poise, the kat user will usually win (if its just a spammfest). Katanas have a great recovery time, and their ability to continue combos after a running attack is better than most weapons. Not to mention a lot of UGS with 76 poise are mid-rolling nowadays, which means the kat will usually win the bs contest. And yes, there are UGS builds with 76 poise that fast roll.

This excludes toggle escapes, ill-timed swings, and other mistakes made by the player.

Dps is calculated (simplistically), in dark souls, by the moment of initiation and ending at the exact moment you can "swing" again. So in essence, dps also applies to single swings.

Every weapon has a weakness, but katanas have few, and the ones they have are harder to exploit by an experienced player as opposed to say an UGS or a mage.

Imo, one of the things that makes katanas, the GT, and maybe even the PGS slightly advantaged, is that they force you to react to bleed build ups. If a good kat user uses that against you, then yes, they win the dps race.

Katanas are beatable (like any other weapon), but they are very popular for a very good reason.

by Forum Pirate Mon May 06, 2013 4:10 pm

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Post n°49

Re: "Advanced" tier weapons.

Post by Forum Pirate Mon May 06, 2013 4:10 pm

Thats not dps. Thats swing speed. They are very, very different things. There is also that the ugs stun locks, and the katana doesent, so in your hypothetical situation here's what happens.

katana swings and ugs swings starting at the same time.

Katana hits twice for 600 damage, zweihander hits once for 450
Katana hits again for 300, zweihander swing is interrupted.
Katana hits fourth time for 300
They trade, zweihander user has taken 1500 damage total. Zweih stunlock for 450 per hit for 3or 4 hits, totaling 1800-2250 damage.

Zweihander wins in most cases at this point, as rarely do builds break 1800 hp.

I was never debating the validity of katana, only stating that they can rarely afford a trade.

by Animaaal Mon May 06, 2013 4:42 pm

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Post n°50

Re: "Advanced" tier weapons.

Post by Animaaal Mon May 06, 2013 4:42 pm

Forum Pirate wrote:...Thats not dps...

It certainly is. But yes, swing speed contributes directly to dps, just as much as damage per hit.

Forum Pirate wrote:...There is also that the ugs stun locks...

Nothing stunlocks until poise is broke.

As far as the scenario: Depends, I can see that, but I can see this one as well...

-Washing Pole and UGS start swing animation at the exact same time at the edge of weapon connection.
-Ugs misses, Washing Pole connects draining 30 poise.
-Both weapons swing again this time the UGS connects draining 75 poise, and the Washing Pole draining 30 again, however the WP connects before the UGS weapon.
-WP is able to swing for the 3rd time draining a total of 90 poise, before the UGS weapon can swing again inflicting a total of 150 poise damage, thereby making the WP the victor, and nullifying the UGS 2nd swing altogether.

There are other scenarios we can play out, but katanas can win exchange battles. At least a lot more than they are given credit for in this thread so far.

Should you go in spamming carelessly? No. But that can be said about any weapon.

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