"Advanced" tier weapons.

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    Re: "Advanced" tier weapons.

    Post by Ghadis_God on Mon May 06, 2013 5:16 pm

    That's a stupid way to look at the game imo. I'm currently compiling a comprehensive tier list for the PvP meta based on various factors that recommend a weapon on its own merits and how they match various playstyles, it's not about how hard it is to get good with the weapon. The great scythe is considered high tier based on a combination of relative damage, range, moveset, and stat investment considerations along with understanding how it matches up against other weapons and playstyles.


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    Re: "Advanced" tier weapons.

    Post by EeAyEss on Mon May 06, 2013 6:22 pm

    Anything is "god" level if you can kill someone with it. Case in point:


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    Re: "Advanced" tier weapons.

    Post by Nybbles on Mon May 06, 2013 6:28 pm

    all i know is that ugs weapons suck balls at trading blows with just about any other weapon now that they are so much slower than they once were.

    a falchion will destroy a ugs in a straight up spam off. a falchion will hit three times for every one of the ugs's hits. that's a significant advantage in favor of the falchion, which can break 90 poise in the time it takes to swing an ugs once.

    a katana might hit only twice for every one ugs hit, but it also has bleed in its favor which will tear away a 1/3 of you health in three or four hits, all they have to do is survive one hit of an ugs and they've won.

    spear and rapier users can easily poke and dodge between a ugs swings with no fear of of ever getting hit at all.

    that's my experience anyway, your mileage may vary.

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    Re: "Advanced" tier weapons.

    Post by Animaaal on Mon May 06, 2013 6:34 pm

    Nybbles wrote:all i know is that ugs weapons suck balls at trading blows with just about any other weapon now that they are so much slower than they once were.

    a falchion will destroy a ugs in a straight up spam off. a falchion will hit three times for every one of the ugs's hits. that's a significant advantage in favor of the falchion, which can break 90 poise in the time it takes to swing an ugs once.

    a katana might hit only twice for every one ugs hit, but it also has bleed in its favor which will tear away a 1/3 of you health in three or four hits, all they have to do is survive one hit of an ugs and they've won.

    spear and rapier users can easily poke and dodge between a ugs swings with no fear of of ever getting hit at all.

    that's my experience anyway, your mileage may vary.


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    Re: "Advanced" tier weapons.

    Post by Saturday-Saint on Mon May 06, 2013 10:06 pm

    Ghadis_God wrote:The great scythe is considered high tier based on a combination of relative damage, range, moveset, and stat investment considerations along with understanding how it matches up against other weapons and playstyles.

    I want to believe Great Scythe can be good but frankly I haven't yet run into a GScythe player I can't beat by just walking at them and BS'ing every time they go for a running attack or R2. It's this trivially easy tactic that shuts down its best attacks.

    That being said I'm sure there are some good GScythe players that won't lose to that, but I don't know how well the weapon performs in their hands since I've never fought them.


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    Re: "Advanced" tier weapons.

    Post by Latitoast on Mon May 06, 2013 10:27 pm

    I generally base movesets, damage output, and required stats on what's "Good" and what's "Bad"

    The Balder Side Sword would be in my good tier, because the R2s are useful, it has the best Dex Scaling out of all the Straight Swords, and has decent R1s, or the MSGS because of it's good Strength Scaling, good moveset, and good damage.

    Something like Grant would be in my alright tier. It's abilities are good but requires you to sacrifice a lot in order to make sure you can use the weapon properly, or the Uncursed GSoA, because of it's bad moveset, split damage, and semi-high requirements, but is still okay because of it's nice Damage Output.

    And then something like the Jagged Ghost Blade goes into my bad category because of it's relatively crappy moveset, and it's terrible scaling, without good base damage, or the Drake Sword because of it's bad moveset, lack of Scaling, and poor damage that isn't worth investing 10 scales and 100000 souls in.


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    Re: "Advanced" tier weapons.

    Post by Satoshi on Mon May 06, 2013 10:50 pm

    Latitoast wrote:I generally base movesets, damage output, and required stats on what's "Good" and what's "Bad"

    The Balder Side Sword would be in my good tier, because the R2s are useful, it has the best Dex Scaling out of all the Straight Swords, and has decent R1s, or the MSGS because of it's good Strength Scaling, good moveset, and good damage.

    Something like Grant would be in my alright tier. It's abilities are good but requires you to sacrifice a lot in order to make sure you can use the weapon properly, or the Uncursed GSoA, because of it's bad moveset, split damage, and semi-high requirements, but is still okay because of it's nice Damage Output.

    And then something like the Jagged Ghost Blade goes into my bad category because of it's relatively crappy moveset, and it's terrible scaling, without good base damage, or the Drake Sword because of it's bad moveset, lack of Scaling, and poor damage that isn't worth investing 10 scales and 100000 souls in.

    Bad moveset, damage output, and required stats? Sounds amazing! I kid of course.

    Honestly, I am not trying to puncture your post, but personally, I would've added versatility in there. For example, if the environment is either cramped, like the tunnel in Firelink, or the bridge in New Londo Ruins. A weapon like the Hand Axe could beat the Zweihänder due to their versatility and size for different environments. The Zweihänder might preform well in open spaces, but in small ones, it can easily lose to a small and versatile weapon. Even a Gravelord Sword can beat it chiefly due to a thrusting attack.

    Please note that I am not bashing the Zweihänder, but it does have weaknesses. All weapons have weaknesses, it balances the game. Katanas have weaknesses such as using all your stamina slashing against a greatshield and getting murdered by them. Spears and rapiers get defeated by simply walking to the side. If you disagree with me, go ahead and protest, I don't mind.



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    Re: "Advanced" tier weapons.

    Post by hey its andres on Mon May 06, 2013 11:12 pm

    Nybbles wrote:all i know is that ugs weapons suck balls at trading blows with just about any other weapon now that they are so much slower than they once were.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=oyA8odjCzZ4#t=79s


    I'll choose great/ultra weapons over a katana in pvp any day
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    Re: "Advanced" tier weapons.

    Post by Satoshi on Mon May 06, 2013 11:23 pm

    hey its andres wrote:


    I'll choose great/ultra weapons over a katana in pvp any day

    Thank you! I agree with you, I've beaten a katana user whilst trading blows...many, many, many times. Honestly, I think that people overestimate the power of any weapon that attacks faster than a snail.
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    Re: "Advanced" tier weapons.

    Post by hey its andres on Mon May 06, 2013 11:30 pm

    Yeah I trade blows all the time with the Dragon Tooth. Most of the time they chicken out when they realize I just ate 1/3 of their health. Even when they slash like crazy, I have high bleed res and am stunned for a second before impaling you. Katanas need to learn their place Point Down


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    Re: "Advanced" tier weapons.

    Post by IIdoneus on Mon May 06, 2013 11:55 pm

    I think I will stick with my Bonewheel Sheild.


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    Re: "Advanced" tier weapons.

    Post by Saturday-Saint on Tue May 07, 2013 12:27 am

    I would just like to clarify that unless you are playing 76 poise for some reason there is no universe in which a dexterity weapon can favorably trade with an ultra weapon without FHSE. Of course FHSE does exist, but that didn't really come up I don't think.


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    Re: "Advanced" tier weapons.

    Post by roanispe on Tue May 07, 2013 3:45 am

    Saturday-Saint wrote:I want to believe Great Scythe can be good but frankly I haven't yet run into a GScythe player I can't beat by just walking at them and BS'ing every time they go for a running attack or R2. It's this trivially easy tactic that shuts down its best attacks.

    I find it an awkward weapon to use, but the main game that I find success for with the Great Scythe is the mixup between running attack, and going for a running backstab. I think it's the only weapon I'd rather have Hornet over DWGR with. If all someone tries to do is go for a backstab to the running attack, I've found going for a sideroll into the 2h rolling attack can tack on a hit with enough space to avoid a backstab, though it become a much more nerve wracking game of figuring out what shoulder they are aiming for. What I've found that really shuts down this current style is a shield; the additional option of a block seems to really throw a wrench into the whole operation,

    I'm still trying to stitch together a fully functional style from my experience with various Great Scythe players, but so far I've found it a really fun weapon. It's certainly no Lucern, so I can say its worth trying.


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    Re: "Advanced" tier weapons.

    Post by Saturday-Saint on Tue May 07, 2013 3:56 am

    Yeah. I think most scythe users build up bad habits of spamming the rush attacks because most people see scythes and **** their pants thinking about R2 R2 taking 2/3rds of their health in half a second and try to back off, which is actually the worst thing you can do vs. scythe since it's basically "Chasing: The Weapon."

    It's hard to theorycraft about how good/bad it might be because I have very little (maybe 0?) experience against people who actually try to counter my pro strategy of "poisestab every time you press a button."

    Like the running attack/BS mix-up might not work vs. me since I tend to hug GScythe users so tight they don't have enough room to sprint at me, even insta-running gets kind of choked out. But if they were positioning themselves better, could they get an insta-run off? Maybe, I'm not sure. Could they punish me with a strafe BS for hugging their nuts? Probably. If I'm expecting that, we go into a little BS dance, and I have no idea how well a scythe handles that compared to other weapons if a good player is using it.


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    Re: "Advanced" tier weapons.

    Post by CarverUpqik on Tue May 07, 2013 4:06 am

    Saturday-Saint wrote:Yeah. I think most scythe users build up bad habits of spamming the rush attacks because most people see scythes and **** their pants thinking about R2 R2 taking 2/3rds of their health in half a second and try to back off, which is actually the worst thing you can do vs. scythe since it's basically "Chasing: The Weapon."

    It's hard to theorycraft about how good/bad it might be because I have very little (maybe 0?) experience against people who actually try to counter my pro strategy of "poisestab every time you press a button."

    Like the running attack/BS mix-up might not work vs. me since I tend to hug GScythe users so tight they don't have enough room to sprint at me, even insta-running gets kind of choked out. But if they were positioning themselves better, could they get an insta-run off? Maybe, I'm not sure. Could they punish me with a strafe BS for hugging their nuts? Probably. If I'm expecting that, we go into a little BS dance, and I have no idea how well a scythe handles that compared to other weapons if a good player is using it.

    thats one way to deal with scythes but even then all they have to do is hit circle then r1 to get an instant running attack without having to run at all


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    Re: "Advanced" tier weapons.

    Post by hey its andres on Tue May 07, 2013 4:08 am

    The only scythe person I had a problem with was a guy who had RTSR activated and rushed me with a dead angle. It wasn't that high of a level so I was instantly killed :|


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    Re: "Advanced" tier weapons.

    Post by CarverUpqik on Tue May 07, 2013 4:13 am

    i just though of something and its a tip i find useful for scythes do not lock on theyre easier to use, hell i dont hardly lock on with anything. except when i wanna freak someone out by seemingly teleporting to a BS i lock on so they think im gunna stay that way then quickly unlock run behind them turn around and BAM bs. ive had ppl send me hatemail saying i only won because of lag when in reality i just did what i did very fast :/


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    Re: "Advanced" tier weapons.

    Post by roanispe on Tue May 07, 2013 4:20 am

    I think the Great Scythe would be weaker than most other weapons in the real nitty gritty close range circling because of how incredibly unwieldy it is, though DWGR or Pyromancy might help create some meaningful distance. Personally, I've never had too much trouble getting breathing room aside from in Blighttown Pit.

    If you'd like to get some matches against my own Great Scythe play to see how passable a weapon it is, I'd gladly pull out what knowledge I currently have of it to give a good showing, though it might be a bit of a stretch to call myself good with it. However, I'd proudly say I'm a fair bit more than passable with it.


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    Re: "Advanced" tier weapons.

    Post by Saturday-Saint on Tue May 07, 2013 4:35 am

    Having some matches would be great. I'm sort of ditching Dark Souls for right now, though. Flickering and all that. If it's still around in a week or two I might come back and just muscle through it, but for now I want to see if there is a semi-timely fix. Especially since I am keeping myself cozy with SF4 sprinkled with bits of DeS.


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    Re: "Advanced" tier weapons.

    Post by roanispe on Tue May 07, 2013 5:01 am

    I can understand that well enough; the flickering is supremely annoying. I personally doubt a fix will come out this week, but I do have some more hope for next one. We'll have to see about organizing a few matches once patch 1.09 gets round, and seems like you found yourself something to keep you well occupied till its arrival.


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    Re: "Advanced" tier weapons.

    Post by Nybbles on Tue May 07, 2013 11:53 am

    i find all the halberd class weapons to be really awkward to use, not just the great scythe. actually i find axes and clubs to be pretty awkward as well. i have never taken the time to learn these weapons because of it.

    i used to really like the ultra greatswords, but since they patched them, they are way to slow. even the greatswords are too damn slow now. i haven't been able to use these weapons with any real success since they've been patched. they no longer suit my play style and they lost the primary advantage they once had and don't really have any other quality that makes up for it. the moonlight greatsword being the exception of course.

    i've always liked straightswords and they are now my favorite class of weapon. curved swords and curved greatswords are a very close second. i would like katanas more if everyone didn't use them all the bloody time, i see katanas so frequently that they have become stale and boring, which doesn't mean i think they are crappy, just over used because they are so good.

    rapiers and spears are good weapons but i prefer rapier class weapons over spears. they don't have the reach of spears but they are much faster and that critical damage! but i don't think i would use one as my primary weapon of choice, they make great secondary weapons though.
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    Re: "Advanced" tier weapons.

    Post by jimmyc0341 on Tue May 07, 2013 1:34 pm

    I don't have a problem w/the weapons people use but I do get bothered by giants armor users and their child mask/Crown of Dusk who all spam Dark Magic and Crystal Magic. If you wanna use the Iaoto,Katana,Washing,Uchi whatever. Use the weapon you feel comfortable with. I used to use the Great Scythe(which took some time to learn the timing) but now I use the BSS(which is my favorite weapon @the moment) but I would love to learn how to use the Flamberge accurately. That's the thing I love about DS, theres just so many weapons to try that it's hard to pick just one


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    Re: "Advanced" tier weapons.

    Post by Jansports on Tue May 07, 2013 4:07 pm

    Good Great Scythe players tend to not do too bad in the BS dance, since they have the option of attempting a dead angle with 2hr2. This is however the easiest thing in the game to poise stab, so it really depends on your poise and how many hits you took coming in ect. It turns into a pretty complex situation.

    Maybe send Pirate a PM about fighting a Great Scythe, recently when we fought He out spaced me so hard a few fights it was ridiculous, I looked like a fool a couple a times

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    Re: "Advanced" tier weapons.

    Post by skarekrow13 on Tue May 07, 2013 4:59 pm

    Great Scythe BS punish avoidance 101 (aka, I know it's really slow and super easy to punish a spammer):

    Hi there....I have no intention whatsoever of swinging first.

    What's that? You're gonna pace around me and try to see what I'm going to do? That's ok. I can wait.

    You want me to what? Roll away from that attack....I think a footstep or two should suffice.

    Oh noes....you're locked into an animation! What's this button do? Oh yes...there it is....there's my attack button.


    EDIT: Basically I'm saying it's best used as a defensive weapon. I find people in video games pigeon hole "defensive" techniques to mean blocking, dodging, heavy armor and the like. When in real life combat, it can equate to timing, exploitation of mistakes and spacing. The philosophy that "the difference between life and death is but an inch" applies to my fighting style. My weapon has more than an inch on most people's......now to make them miss.


    Last edited by skarekrow13 on Tue May 07, 2013 5:03 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: "Advanced" tier weapons.

    Post by Rynn on Tue May 07, 2013 5:01 pm

    Dibsville wrote:I wish people wouldn't complain about a Curved Sword.
    Like, how am I supposed to use a Curved Sword to your liking? Roll around and hit with it.
    >No, that makes you bad because you can't get hit
    Use the R2?
    >No, it's too fast
    Use the R1?
    >You're so bad that you have to mash R1 on a Curved Sword

    On the OP's topic,

    Rapiers. I actually use the Rapier as a weapon, and it's a beautiful weapon. The R2 has such reach and it's actually decently powerful with 40 DEX, on top of that it gets beautiful parry and backstab damage, and of course it's recovery times are fast enough to get in and out with ease. Definitely my favourite weapon class.

    Great Hammers. People usually use this with Hornet Ring because of the huge damage it can dish out, some literally doing the most possible without glitching. I LOVE the Dragon Tooth and Demon's Greathammer, their R2s are actually extremely useful if you know what you're doing.

    Halberd. Not halberds, but Halberd. While Rapiers are my favourite weapon CLASS, the Halberd is hands down my favourite weapon. It's pretty self-explanatory why; huge damage, stunlocks, great moveset, long reach, and gets boosts from the Leo Ring.

    Server. My second favourite weapon. Although comparing it to the Murakumo is like comparing a Scimitar to a Falchion, I prefer the Server due to its looks and the reach. The Mura's reach is awkward whereas I can clearly tell how far the Server is going to go. Also, people underestimate the Server WAY to much.

    Whips. Hard class to learn, but I've been completely torn up by quite a few whip users. Not really much to say, I don't know much about them.
    I have literally never met a curved sword user that did not either spam the R1, backstab fish, or spam R2's with a shotel. Do anything with a curved sword except R1 spam, and I'll consider you to not be a scrub.

    Similarly, I feel like I'm fighting a scrub when my opponent uses a katana, and refuses to do anything but a running attack: which does thrust damage, has great range, and can do phantom damage, while being intensely quick.

    Spear users are instantly **** IMO too.

    I quit playing.

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