Introducing the Scrub.

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    jaythibodeau
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    Re: Introducing the Scrub.

    Post by jaythibodeau on Sun Apr 28, 2013 7:16 pm

    Saturday-Saint wrote:I do not think spears are anywhere near as dominant as people in this thread are making them out to be. Their damage is quite low, their BS's are ***. They have no safe defensive dead angles. You can just hold L1 and walk in their face for free. Then go for roll BS's if all they're doing is shieldpoking. If they're 2H R1 spamming, use running attacks. Bait out their rolls and punish them if you can.
    My point still stands. If damage is low, take your time. There is no time limit to a fight. If you hold L1 and walk towards them, they'll walk back. If you try to roll-BS them, what's stopping them from doing it too? If you're using running attacks, they can poke. They can bait out your roll and punish you too. Nearly all of the supposed "options" against them so far is something that can only be used under the assumption that they can't necessarily defend against. Which is not true. Since Spear users could have just as much knowledge as you do about BSing or whatever.
    I'm not exactly arguing how OP Spears are, I'm arguing about why things need to be banned. Such as the Spear.
    (That was an example of banning something, I don't literally mean to ban it.)


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    Re: Introducing the Scrub.

    Post by Animaaal on Sun Apr 28, 2013 7:27 pm

    @ Saint

    Keep in mind the thread tone surrounds the PTW and balance debate.

    Thats why the topic seems to go in that direction. I dont think anyone here is saying spears are unbeatable.

    I think they/we are saying that the "unbeatable" players become "immortal-like" with a spear.

    BUT, anyone can make a mistake, even in Dark Souls.

    I just think a Dark Souls cash tourney would be (i'm guessing) 80% spear builds. A few creative, and a few not so much.

    However, if there was a 2 min max time frame, spears might lose out to mages in total damage allocated, or maybe even a patient Hornets Ring build.
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    Re: Introducing the Scrub.

    Post by Saturday-Saint on Sun Apr 28, 2013 7:54 pm

    Jay, you are making weird fantasy-world arguments. I'm not sure if you're being serious or not, though, since from your last sentence it seems like you're just playing some kind of devil's advocate.

    @Animaaal: Yeah, no. Spears are good. They are top-tier for sure. They are not dominant to the point where they'd make up 80% of a tournament roster, not even close.


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    Re: Introducing the Scrub.

    Post by jaythibodeau on Sun Apr 28, 2013 8:09 pm

    Saturday-Saint wrote:Jay, you are making weird fantasy-world arguments. I'm not sure if you're being serious or not, though, since from your last sentence it seems like you're just playing some kind of devil's advocate.
    I'm being dead serious. And I'd appreciate it if you took them seriously too, by giving counter-points. How are they, "weird fantasy-world arguments"?
    That last sentence was meant to not derail the thread into a discussion about whether or not Spears are OP and whether or not they specifically need to be banned. Although I think they are OP and my statements show that, I don't really care either way if they're banned. I'm mostly trying to show why things need to be banned and why saying, "just use a counter" doesn't always work.


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    Re: Introducing the Scrub.

    Post by Saturday-Saint on Sun Apr 28, 2013 9:02 pm

    Right. Some things ought to be banned because they are so powerful that "just counter them" is not a reasonable argument. In Dark Souls this might apply to something like TWoD, but definitely not spears.

    As for your arguments:

    jaythibodeau wrote:My point still stands. If damage is low, take your time. There is no time limit to a fight.
    This is what I mean when I say fantasy-world argument. In the real world low damage is an actual weakness that is not just magically made irrelevant because you chose to take your time or whatever. Or to put it this way: the longer the fight lasts, the more opportunities your opponent has to hit you. Damage is important because it controls the ratio of mistakes each player has to make in order to lose the match. E.G., spear guy fights Zweihander guy. Spear guy has to poke Zweihander guy a good 6 to 7 times to win probably. Zweihander guy lands one running R1 and BS's spear guy and now Spear guy has 300 HP left and any hit will kill him. Zwei running R1 is harder to land than Spear 2H R1, yes, but you only need to land it like 1 time. Spear guy has to land the 2H R1 several times.

    jaythibodeau wrote:If you hold L1 and walk towards them, they'll walk back.
    If they want to deal damage then at some point they have to attack, and that means they stop walking backwards. Yeah they can just never ever attack and walk backwards forever, but then you're free to pressure them as much as you want and eventually they're going to die. In the real world, the spear doesn't let you pressure for free, and he fights back, and he leaves holes in his game that you can find and exploit.

    jaythibodeau wrote:If you try to roll-BS them, what's stopping them from doing it too?
    Nothing, it just happens to be a particularly effective move against shieldpoke.

    jaythibodeau wrote:If you're using running attacks, they can poke.
    Most running attacks will win a trade with spear R1. Like I think everything that isn't dagger will be at an advantage? Also you end up in the spear user's face. They don't want you there, so they're going to try to roll away, which means you can...

    jaythibodeau wrote:They can bait out your roll and punish you too.
    Baiting and punishing rolls is typically something you use to punish retreating opponents. Spears spend a lot of time retreating, leaving them open to roll-punishing.

    jaythibodeau wrote:Nearly all of the supposed "options" against them so far is something that can only be used under the assumption that they can't necessarily defend against. Which is not true.
    Again, fantasy-world argument. In the real world a tactic does not need to be indefensible in order for it to be worth using. It only needs to be a good answer to whatever problem you're facing. In fact, if any of these were indefensible, spears would be the worst weapons in the game. Sorry to say, beating people isn't as simple as looking at their weapon and picking the tactic that beats it. Frankly the game would be a lot more boring if it were.

    jaythibodeau wrote:Since Spear users could have just as much knowledge as you do about BSing or whatever.
    Yes exactly, if they are as good as you are you don't get to win for free. I am not sure what about this notion perplexes you. If you out-perform them, you win. If you don't, you lose.


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    Re: Introducing the Scrub.

    Post by Animaaal on Sun Apr 28, 2013 9:13 pm

    Saturday-Saint wrote:...@Animaaal: Yeah, no. Spears are good. They are top-tier for sure. They are not dominant to the point where they'd make up 80% of a tournament roster, not even close...

    Doesn't really matter. It would be close to 50% at least, which in itself speaks volumes.

    Is this really turning into a "spear" conversation again?

    Parry the tips, then they'd be equal.

    There's plenty of vets that feel the same way.

    I won more with my spear build than any other build....I'm not the only one. :idea:

    Also, most running attacks will NOT trade hits with a spear user, thats kinda ridiculous.
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    Re: Introducing the Scrub.

    Post by Jansports on Sun Apr 28, 2013 9:24 pm

    @ Reim It's the SKS 1hR2 that can deadangle, so can the partizan's.

    @ Thread. I think it's fairly safe to say a lot of players here "would rather win than lose" Over this weekend I've been invaded by a good number of them. I've been summoned by some and I've invaded some. I personally used as many spears as I saw on other players (MLBH SKS) Two. Out of Dozens. I saw more dragon bodies than spears. And if you don't think some of the participants are taking the event seriously well you haven't been in the chatango enough.

    My point is that Among a collection of players with vested interest in Winning, there were not an overwhelming number of spears, correlating to a community that can and will chose other weapons when winning is important, which is indicative of spears not being advantaged.

    Most of this sneaking off topic.

    Spears, totally beatable. WoG super stoppable. Dark Bead Major dodgeable (even fat roll can dodge bead) GT r1 spam absurdly parryable. bows pathetically trade-able. I am not convinced in the least that there exists a non glitched entity in DaS that is advantaged enough to warrant a ban in competitive play, as every non glitched entity I am aware of is overcome-able.

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    Re: Introducing the Scrub.

    Post by Animaaal on Sun Apr 28, 2013 9:40 pm

    Jansports wrote:...@ Thread. I think it's fairly safe to say a lot of players here "would rather win than lose"...

    I'd say quite the opposite. I dont want that label, and know plenty of others dont as well.

    I would also say a lot of people here dont hold it against anyone that adheres to the PTW mentality.

    Jansports wrote:...My point is that Among a collection of players with vested interest in Winning, there were not an overwhelming number of spears, correlating to a community that can and will chose other weapons when winning is important, which is indicative of spears not being advantaged...

    Thats not enough evidence to make that statement.

    Jansports wrote:...Spears, totally beatable...

    No one is saying they are not. They are advantaged.

    Jansports wrote:... WoG super stoppable...

    Well timed DA WoGs are not. There's no way to regulate it though.

    Jansports wrote:... I am not convinced in the least that there exists a non glitched entity in DaS that is advantaged enough to warrant a ban in competitive play, as every non glitched entity I am aware of is overcome-able....

    Toggle escape is a glitch as well as DAs.

    They may not be as drastic as the TWoD, but they are glitches.

    They would be impossible to regulate and an unnecessary regulation, considering you could just...use a spear.
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    Re: Introducing the Scrub.

    Post by lextune on Sun Apr 28, 2013 9:48 pm

    Have not read the whole thread, sorry, but to the OP; It is a game, and it's ONLY purpose is fun.

    You can tell me that the "experts" are having fun on some other level, but I have had more fun with this build......

    http://mmdks.com/23qu

    ....than I have ever had with any game I have ever played.

    I invade with him and lose constantly, (maybe 80+% of the time), but almost ALWAYS have fun, (more than I can say about my typical Dex/Pyro cookie cutter build, (though he sure is fun from time to time too).

    Point is that I have great fun with him lose or win(!!!wins are sooo epic with him , lol).

    The type of fun I have with this build CANNOT be replicated by any "expert" technique, because no "expert" could ever include the style with which this build is forced to fight with.


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    Re: Introducing the Scrub.

    Post by Zeta Prime on Sun Apr 28, 2013 9:52 pm

    Banana


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    Re: Introducing the Scrub.

    Post by reim0027 on Sun Apr 28, 2013 9:53 pm

    Jansports wrote:@ Reim It's the SKS 1hR2 that can deadangle, so can the partizan's.

    LOL, shows how much I use spears.


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    Re: Introducing the Scrub.

    Post by Jansports on Sun Apr 28, 2013 10:05 pm

    Animaaal wrote:

    Toggle escape is a glitch as well as DAs.


    I'm not certain they are. They were in DeS and known about by the community and FROM, but they had become a part of the evolving metagame of DeS, and their inclusion in DaS feels intentional. Of course I cannot speak for fromsoft but A lot of glitches have been patched out of DaS once they were discovered and these have remained.

    You can always Roll a DA WoG, unless you're stuck in some other animation, in which case I'm going to go a head and say you made a mistake somewhere and it's your own fault.

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    Re: Introducing the Scrub.

    Post by Animaaal on Sun Apr 28, 2013 10:19 pm

    Jansports wrote:
    Animaaal wrote:

    Toggle escape is a glitch as well as DAs.


    I'm not certain they are. They were in DeS and known about by the community and FROM, but they had become a part of the evolving metagame of DeS, and their inclusion in DaS feels intentional. Of course I cannot speak for fromsoft but A lot of glitches have been patched out of DaS once they were discovered and these have remained.

    You can always Roll a DA WoG, unless you're stuck in some other animation, in which case I'm going to go a head and say you made a mistake somewhere and it's your own fault.

    The underlined is a really good point. Bow

    I'm uncertain if there was a way to patch it though. Imo, it coulda been one of those,
    "Well, we have so much time today sooooo."

    But ya point taken.

    As to the DA WoG, thats a fair statement. But if you haven't pulled out your talisman until the end of the fight, its very hard to predict.

    Thats why I said "well timed".

    Again, I dont think anyone is saying playing to win is bad, as a matter of fact, I'd totally do it in a cash tourney.

    I'd prolly use MoM, HSWC, and a spear. A lot of other people would too.

    Actually I dont know why and even how it turned into the op'd spear thing, but spears have a clear advantage. Just like the Pursuers--> unlocked CSS combo. Is it beatable? Of course.

    I think a vast majority of the souls series community can at least agree Dark Souls is not as balanced as it could be. A lot of us believe further balance could be created by the implementation of certain rules. However, with the impending release of Dark Souls 2, I doubt those rules would ever be implemented in a fight club environment.

    An example of one of those rules would be:

    -No grassing unless your stamina regeneration is hindered by xyz armor combo.

    Something of that nature. Also, seeing as how this appears to be one of the most active if not the most active forums/communties, the fact an extensive rule list has not been ceated and polled shows most people here just wanna have fun...imo.

    Maybe people just dont like rules as much as me. :?:
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    Re: Introducing the Scrub.

    Post by jaythibodeau on Sun Apr 28, 2013 10:31 pm

    Saturday-Saint wrote:Right. Some things ought to be banned because they are so powerful that "just counter them" is not a reasonable argument. In Dark Souls this might apply to something like TWoD, but definitely not spears.

    I never said that it wasn't reasonable. I literally said that sometimes is just doesn't always work.
    Also, where are you getting that banning thing from? Didn't I already say this? :
    jaythibodeau wrote:
    (That was an example of banning something, I don't literally mean to ban it.)
    I literally made that whole Spear argument to explain that some things do indeed need to be banned. I can have the opinion that they should or that I dislike them, but that doesn't mean that they should be banned or that I would actually like to see them banned. They're fine without being banned. It's just that I don't have to like it.

    Basically, I think they're OP. But to the extent of being bannable? No.

    Saturday-Saint wrote:
    This is what I mean when I say fantasy-world argument. In the real world low damage is an actual weakness that is not just magically made irrelevant because you chose to take your time or whatever. Or to put it this way: the longer the fight lasts, the more opportunities your opponent has to hit you. Damage is important because it controls the ratio of mistakes each player has to make in order to lose the match. E.G., spear guy fights Zweihander guy. Spear guy has to poke Zweihander guy a good 6 to 7 times to win probably. Zweihander guy lands one running R1 and BS's spear guy and now Spear guy has 300 HP left and any hit will kill him. Zwei running R1 is harder to land than Spear 2H R1, yes, but you only need to land it like 1 time. Spear guy has to land the 2H R1 several times.

    I never said that damage was irrelevant. Nor did i state that it wasn't a weakness. I merely said that you could just prolong the fight to cover that weakness. While yes, the whole Zweihander vs Spear argument makes sense, it didn't exactly show how the Spear isn't all that fantastic. With your reasoning, the two are on near equal grounds with the Zweihander being better slightly because of high damage. If anything, speed makes up for damage by far. Besides, you can't compare the two if you aren't taking all of the factors they have into account.
    Let's say for instance that the Spear user is poking behind a Greatshield. How the heck is a Zweihander running R1 gonna stop that?

    Saturday-Saint wrote:
    If they want to deal damage then at some point they have to attack, and that means they stop walking backwards. Yeah they can just never ever attack and walk backwards forever, but then you're free to pressure them as much as you want and eventually they're going to die. In the real world, the spear doesn't let you pressure for free, and he fights back, and he leaves holes in his game that you can find and exploit.
    In the real world, you leave openings too. I think you forgot that there's no weapon that lets you pressure for free, don't just take the Spear into account when making that statement. As I was saying before, a Spear sure can exploit your tactics as much as you can exploit him.

    Honestly, I'd say that your statement is somewhat fantasy based instead. Since this is all under the assumption that a Spear user would be backing up the whole time. Last time I checked, not every Spear user simply just backs up as the enemy is, "free" to pressure them, as you had said.

    Saturday-Saint wrote:
    Nothing, it just happens to be a particularly effective move against shieldpoke.
    Exactly. The Spear user can do that too. Zweihander running R1? roll BS. The roll BS is "particularly effective" against most things anyways.

    Saturday-Saint wrote:
    Most running attacks will win a trade with spear R1. Like I think everything that isn't dagger will be at an advantage? Also you end up in the spear user's face. They don't want you there, so they're going to try to roll away, which means you can...
    Yes. A running attack would win against a Spear R1. I said pokes.
    If you were talking about pokes, care to name a few good running attacks then? A good shield and some range with a decent Spear should hold out ok against most things.
    Also, wrong on that last sentence there. You're assuming that they're rolling away, which they might. That would indeed be the desired situation for someone fighting a Spear user. But, what's stopping them from BSing you for those running R1s? Nothing. I'm pretty sure running R1s have their flaws too. They aren't the end-all to pokes.

    Saturday-Saint wrote:
    Baiting and punishing rolls is typically something you use to punish retreating opponents. Spears spend a lot of time retreating, leaving them open to roll-punishing.
    Yes, but they can still do this exact same thing to you. Even then, this would be assuming that they're going to roll away a lot. Everyone rolls away at some point. I'm genuinely curious though, why would a Spear user retreat more?

    Saturday-Saint wrote:
    Again, fantasy-world argument. In the real world a tactic does not need to be indefensible in order for it to be worth using. It only needs to be a good answer to whatever problem you're facing. In fact, if any of these were indefensible, spears would be the worst weapons in the game. Sorry to say, beating people isn't as simple as looking at their weapon and picking the tactic that beats it. Frankly the game would be a lot more boring if it were.

    I never said that it wasn't worth using, or that it needed to be indefensible. Sorry to say, but I never stated that it was as simple as looking at someone's weapon and picking the tactic that beats it. I've literally been saying that picking a single tactic to argue about doesn't matter, since you can talk about a counter tactic to that, or that a Spear user could even do the same thing. And so on, and so on.

    However, you made it sound that way with your earlier statements. For example, when I said something about poking, you said that you could just use running R1s. I thought it wasn't that simple?

    Saturday-Saint wrote:
    Yes exactly, if they are as good as you are you don't get to win for free. I am not sure what about this notion perplexes you. If you out-perform them, you win. If you don't, you lose.
    I never said anything about getting a free win. I already said plenty of times that the Spear user has an advantage. Does it heighten his chance at winning if it is a better weapon? Yes. Does it equal a free win? Obviously not.

    I'm well aware that the more skilled player wins. You don't have to reinforce that.

    Anyways, I'd like to get back on topic before this devolves into, "What's OP and what's not". My main point is still about why things need to be banned to make something competitive. Such as stuff in Dark Souls.
    Animaaal wrote:
    Is this really turning into a "spear" conversation again?
    Oh god, I hope not. I'm afraid that it is though. Looks like my point about Spears really rustled some jimmies. And I guess maybe the fact that I'm adding on to it...


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    Re: Introducing the Scrub.

    Post by Animaaal on Sun Apr 28, 2013 10:41 pm

    @jay

    I would say its fine. Hell even Saturday is being polite here...at least the way he knows how.

    This is prolly the only forum where the, "Well you just don't know what you're talking about" or "%$#@ing casul" statements are kept at a minimum.

    Personally, I think its healthy, and I think FROM has paid attention to these conversations in this forum more than people think.....they dont have to weed through a lot of bull**** to find some gem statements.

    This forum is a good representation of the tone of the community imo. At least the "mature" one.
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    Re: Introducing the Scrub.

    Post by jaythibodeau on Sun Apr 28, 2013 10:57 pm

    Animaaal wrote:@jay

    I would say its fine. Hell even Saturday is being polite here...at least the way he knows how.

    This is prolly the only forum where the, "Well you just don't know what you're talking about" or "%$#@ing casul" statements are kept at a minimum.

    Personally, I think its healthy, and I think FROM has paid attention to these conversations in this forum more than people think.....they dont have to weed through a lot of bull**** to find some gem statements.

    This forum is a good representation of the tone of the community imo. At least the "mature" one.
    You're absolutely right about that. I've seen some truly horrendous forums during my time on the internet. Prostration

    Anywho, back on topic. You'd think that with ten pages, we'd have reached a conclusive point by now. silly
    Mostly, I'm seeing that things should only be banned in extreme cases. Which is certainly something that I can agree with. However, while that would be the case with fighting games, I don't see it working with competitive balanced Dark Souls PvP. Since it's not as balanced as a fighting game, and has PvE to balance in too.


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    Re: Introducing the Scrub.

    Post by Saturday-Saint on Mon Apr 29, 2013 1:44 am

    So like what is your argument? Can you explain it? What I'm getting here is something along the lines of, "Some things are worthy of being banned. As an example, here is the spear, an item which is not worthy of ban. However we can see from this example of the spear that there is counterplay involved in fighting against the spear. Therefore, some things (but not the spear) are worthy of being banned."

    Like I'm sorry if I'm misinterpreting your argument but it is a legit clusterf***.


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    Re: Introducing the Scrub.

    Post by DemonOfFate on Mon Apr 29, 2013 2:17 am

    Saturday-Saint wrote:So like what is your argument? Can you explain it? What I'm getting here is something along the lines of, "Some things are worthy of being banned. As an example, here is the spear, an item which is not worthy of ban. However we can see from this example of the spear that there is counterplay involved in fighting against the spear. Therefore, some things (but not the spear) are worthy of being banned."

    Like I'm sorry if I'm misinterpreting your argument but it is a legit clusterf***.

    What i got from what he was saying is this. Spear is op, and he showed several examples of why. You are focusing on the one part where he mentioned how to find out what weapons are ban worthy, and he went on to say that if a weapon was to be considered ban worthy in dark souls pvp, it would be the spear, for it is quite OP. In no way did he say that he thought it should be banned, he merely showed how it is quite superior to other weapons in most if not all cases. He used it as an example of if a weapon was to be banned in dark souls, the spear would be the most likely to be nerfed/banned. (It's not ban worthy, but it is quite OP compared to every single other weapon in the game.)

    Or at least that is what i gathered from it. Focus on the other parts of his argument, any part of it, doesn't really matter which.

    Edit: And sorry to derail this a little bit, but what do you guys think of this build? http://mmdks.com/23uc It's for invading in the Parish, teach some newbies the ropes to pvp. I'm trying to make sure he is not Op, and i intend on dropping a Crystal Straight sword every invasion if it looks like the host is a true noob.


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    Re: Introducing the Scrub.

    Post by Animaaal on Mon Apr 29, 2013 2:28 am

    Saturday-Saint wrote:...Like I'm sorry if I'm misinterpreting your argument but it is a legit clusterf***...

    I've read and understood 2 or 3 consecutive pages that are pretty well thought out with great debatable points not only considering the original topic, but what we've also evolved it into.

    I think valid points have been made regarding the differences of a desire to play to win, and winning isn't everything.

    I think the common tool in which we've related to would be the use of the spear, and how it exemplifies a certain reflection of both camp's debates and preferences.

    I think some examples have been exaggerated a little, perfectly natural, but also objectively laid out in a large regard.

    Being side tracked a little would seem natural given the element of how strong our given personal preferences are as a collective.

    So no, I'm not reading a clusterf***. You're also to thank for that. Some of your points of view might be more rational to us than you might think Saturday, regardless if we agree or not. Whether you think so or not, rookies learn a lot from several articles you've contributed to in "souls forums".

    Spears are a little op, that is all.

    Also, I don’t, “play to win”. Thats just my MO though.
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    Re: Introducing the Scrub.

    Post by DemonOfFate on Mon Apr 29, 2013 2:34 am

    Well said Animal, I've also read 2-3 pages of an interesting debate and saw 3-5 people make pretty good points. Good talk, but i think this thread is starting to reach its end. In fact, this article i believe has had like 3 other threads around it.

    I play to have fun, not to win. But I've got no qualms against someone who plays to win, if that is your version of fun, then so be it. Just don't try to act like you are somehow having more fun to me because you are not holding anything back, because i believe that is false.


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    Re: Introducing the Scrub.

    Post by Animaaal on Mon Apr 29, 2013 2:41 am

    Thank you Demon. Bow

    Also, have you thought about 16 str and just 2 handing the CGS?

    I like your point of view btw.
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    Re: Introducing the Scrub.

    Post by DemonOfFate on Mon Apr 29, 2013 2:44 am

    Thanks mate, and between you and me, i like my view as well! Just joking around mate, but really thanks. Bow

    I did, but i decided that i might sometimes want to put the crystal straight sword in my offhand, and have my greatsword equipped as main. That or equip a parrying dagger in my offhand, cause i think it'd look decent.


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    Re: Introducing the Scrub.

    Post by Animaaal on Mon Apr 29, 2013 2:47 am

    ^ lol!

    You sound more like you're 20.

    And also, not a bad idea. I see zero wrong with it. The people you invade shall be graced. Good for you man, I really really like that build. Bow

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    Re: Introducing the Scrub.

    Post by DemonOfFate on Mon Apr 29, 2013 2:49 am

    I get that a'lot, might have to do with the fact that i hang out with my teachers that are +15-20 years older than me.

    Oh and i'm also thinking about getting the trident, so if i see some twink'd out phantom, i can buff all the hollows.


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    Re: Introducing the Scrub.

    Post by jaythibodeau on Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:41 am

    Saturday-Saint wrote:So like what is your argument? Can you explain it? What I'm getting here is something along the lines of, "Some things are worthy of being banned. As an example, here is the spear, an item which is not worthy of ban. However we can see from this example of the spear that there is counterplay involved in fighting against the spear. Therefore, some things (but not the spear) are worthy of being banned."

    Like I'm sorry if I'm misinterpreting your argument but it is a legit clusterf***.
    Admittedly, it is a bit of a mess. silly

    My point is that Spears are OP, and I was merely showing an example of something that would possibly need to be banned in a competition.

    If I were actually debating whether or not Spears were to be banned or not, I'd say that they shouldn't. As much as I dislike Spears, they shouldn't be banned. Because they are not OP enough to warrant a ban.

    Or basically, what Demon said.

    I pretty much think that if someone wants to play to win or just mess around, that's perfectly fine. But do I have to enjoy it? Nope. I'd much rather fight a fun opponent than a generic build is all.

    I see nothing wrong with setting a few limitations on yourself when playing to win. It's their decision to limit themselves like that. And so, they need to understand its consequences.

    However, I hate mindless complaining (this is assuming that they are talking about said "cheap" tactic). If it's not about how the tactic could have been improved, or why it is so powerful (such as sometimes warranting a ban), or how to counter it, I find it to be pointless. There's no single win-all set in a play to win game right? Just use whatever you like most or find the least cheap then. It's not a big deal I personally think. There's no need to whine if you have nothing to back it up with.

    Some of the time, such as with this Spear argument, I see people saying too quickly that I should just find a counter to it. What I was trying to do, was discuss its strengths and why it having so little flaws made it cheap. It's all nice and dandy to discuss how to stop a Spear, but there's nothing wrong with discussing its strength over the other weapons. If it's not as good as I make it out to be, prove me wrong then. That's the exact reason I'm even arguing about it here anyways big grin. Discussing it is a way for me to validate my view of the weapon. For all I know, I could be wrong. But I won't know that until someone proves me wrong. Neither will the person complaining about something being cheap. If you don't think that certain tactic is unfair, prove why.
    Everything is "fair game" in a game (meaning that it's ok to use it), since it's, well, you know, in the game. But does that make it a balanced part of the game that everyone should just "deal with"?
    Nope.




    Nice build Demon! If you're willing to sacrifice that fast roll, you could do this:
    http://mmdks.com/23yj


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