Introducing the Scrub.

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    Animaaal
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    Re: Introducing the Scrub.

    Post by Animaaal on Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:09 pm

    ResIsBestStat wrote:
    DigitaLinsanitY wrote:That's good advice. I've actually summed some random RSS in the painted world. All he did was try to bs/perry me the whole time with rapier + hornet ring . Whe had a couple friendly back and froths and now he's on my friends list. We spend a good hour practicing fishing/counter fishing and perry timings.

    Was very helpful.

    ur casul
    u only need one greatsword to kill parries and fishes

    What?... :suspect:

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    Re: Introducing the Scrub.

    Post by User1 on Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:09 pm

    @Res U r irritating people, I imagine.

    Stop doing this, but instead, try to say it in a less forceful or more serious way, so people will actually take what you have to say to heart. Just saying, I feel as if some may disregard your opinion if it isn't really helpful.
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    Re: Introducing the Scrub.

    Post by DigitaLinsanitY on Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:09 pm

    ResIsBestStat wrote:
    DigitaLinsanitY wrote:That's good advice. I've actually summed some random RSS in the painted world. All he did was try to bs/perry me the whole time with rapier + hornet ring . Whe had a couple friendly back and froths and now he's on my friends list. We spend a good hour practicing fishing/counter fishing and perry timings.

    Was very helpful.

    ur casul
    u only need one greatsword to kill parries and fishes

    Not sure where you're trying to go with this. The whole point was to get more familiar with the mechanics. I know dead angles exist. Thanks for the tip mate.

    Cheers.


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    Re: Introducing the Scrub.

    Post by Animaaal on Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:11 pm

    I had like 10 Greatswords in mybottomless box...I still got parried...WTF?!?! silly
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    Re: Introducing the Scrub.

    Post by ResIsBestStat on Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:13 pm

    Animaaal wrote:I had like 10 Greatswords in mybottomless box...I still got parried...WTF?!?! silly

    You noob, u didn't try hard enough, if u turn camera around u can stunlock a guy before he bs you, you can also avoid parries if you see the guy standing still or not attacking much

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    Re: Introducing the Scrub.

    Post by Animaaal on Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:15 pm

    ResIsBestStat wrote:
    Animaaal wrote:I had like 10 Greatswords in mybottomless box...I still got parried...WTF?!?! silly

    You noob, u didn't try hard enough, if u turn camera around u can stunlock a guy before he bs you, you can also avoid parries if you see the guy standing still or not attacking much

    lol!

    You're wrong though, first thing I shoulda done was take them out of my bottomless box... Look Skyward

    I'm such a noob.. sad
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    Re: Introducing the Scrub.

    Post by RANT on Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:22 pm

    So if the point is to do anything to win instead of having fun? If yes then you just contradicted yourself since when you do anything to win you have fun doing right? The whole point is to have fun, doesn't matter how.


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    Re: Introducing the Scrub.

    Post by DigitaLinsanitY on Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:26 pm

    RantFromRant wrote:So if the point is to do anything to win instead of having fun? If yes then you just contradicted yourself since when you do anything to win you have fun doing right? The whole point is to have fun, doesn't matter how.

    I'm a little confused and not sure who this is in response to.
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    Re: Introducing the Scrub.

    Post by RANT on Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:27 pm

    To the op of course.


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    Re: Introducing the Scrub.

    Post by DigitaLinsanitY on Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:31 pm

    RantFromRant wrote:To the op of course.

    Oh, sorry. I guess we had a side debate going and when you said "you" I wasn't sure if it was aimed at something more specific.
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    Re: Introducing the Scrub.

    Post by Seignar on Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:32 pm

    Luckily for me I had read a large part of that article (and all the others around there) before. You took the time to post the article of the scrub, but you didn't mention this one:

    What should be banned

    Basically, it agrees that there are things that must be banned competitively (Such as we did with TWoP). In the forum world, we aren't as scrubby as we (or at least how I) seem: We employ backstabs (all kinds), toggle switches, Dark Magic...all those things usually considered broken.

    What happened in the case of backstabs? Well, they were OP as OP could get, but we eventually found counter backstabs and now we laugh at the first BS fisher we get. Toggle switch is a glitch that is allowed in order to counter stunlocking (an OP tactic we had). Deadangling is a glitch that we use to counter turtles.

    The point is that, while this game was not designed from a competitive standpoint, it has been shown that we still followed those "predictions" were we discovered OPness, glitches and counters, then eventually got the skill to balance most things out. Then, we followed the "predictions" of the second article in that we banned certain things for being "Too Good!".

    As far as I know, the only things that I hard-ban are TWoP. Spears get on my nerves to no end and there is a thread discussing exclusively about them (that goes various pages long). Otherwise, we have no quarrel with anything else...except lag.

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    Re: Introducing the Scrub.

    Post by swordiris on Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:49 pm

    RantFromRant wrote:So if the point is to do anything to win instead of having fun? If yes then you just contradicted yourself since when you do anything to win you have fun doing right? The whole point is to have fun, doesn't matter how.

    As said in the essay.

    The experts are having fun on a higher level than the scrubs can ever imagine.

    Two players who use the cheap tactics on each other and neither whine about it, have quite a bit of fun. I'd argue that they also learn more, as they will figure out counters to the other persons tactics.


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    Re: Introducing the Scrub.

    Post by Animaaal on Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:51 pm

    swordiris wrote:...The experts are having fun on a higher level than the scrubs can ever imagine....

    Completely subjective and opinionated.

    If the pros wanna have fun cycling through their 5 builds, then fine let em. Thats not fun to some of us.

    What build would I use in a cash tourney??? Do we really need to ask?
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    Re: Introducing the Scrub.

    Post by swordiris on Fri Apr 26, 2013 2:04 pm

    Seignar wrote:Luckily for me I had read a large part of that article (and all the others around there) before. You took the time to post the article of the scrub, but you didn't mention this one:

    What should be banned

    Basically, it agrees that there are things that must be banned competitively (Such as we did with TWoP). In the forum world, we aren't as scrubby as we (or at least how I) seem: We employ backstabs (all kinds), toggle switches, Dark Magic...all those things usually considered broken.

    What happened in the case of backstabs? Well, they were OP as OP could get, but we eventually found counter backstabs and now we laugh at the first BS fisher we get. Toggle switch is a glitch that is allowed in order to counter stunlocking (an OP tactic we had). Deadangling is a glitch that we use to counter turtles.

    The point is that, while this game was not designed from a competitive standpoint, it has been shown that we still followed those "predictions" were we discovered OPness, glitches and counters, then eventually got the skill to balance most things out. Then, we followed the "predictions" of the second article in that we banned certain things for being "Too Good!".

    As far as I know, the only things that I hard-ban are TWoP. Spears get on my nerves to no end and there is a thread discussing exclusively about them (that goes various pages long). Otherwise, we have no quarrel with anything else...except lag.

    I read your link to the Ban article. Another really good essay.

    Like he said though. Very rarely does something warrant a ban. I don't see how anything allowed within the rules of DkS should be banned. I haven't found much of a PvE purpose for twop so I believe it was made for PvP specifically.


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    Re: Introducing the Scrub.

    Post by RANT on Fri Apr 26, 2013 2:08 pm

    I'm gonna have to agree with animaal on that one, believe it or not people that has self imposed rules have the same kinda fun as the other guys. Also, using every tactic against someone that doesn't does not mean you will win, depends on who's fighting who, if you're on psn then challenge roan and use every tactic there is against him and have him play "honorably" and see who wins.


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    Re: Introducing the Scrub.

    Post by swordiris on Fri Apr 26, 2013 2:09 pm

    Animaaal wrote:
    swordiris wrote:...The experts are having fun on a higher level than the scrubs can ever imagine....

    Completely subjective and opinionated.

    If the pros wanna have fun cycling through their 5 builds, then fine let em. Thats not fun to some of us.

    What build would I use in a cash tourney??? Do we really need to ask?

    You are mixing up "optimal" with "unbeatable"

    A Giant Dad build can be countered by a less optimal build if the other player has enough skill.

    In fighting games we have tier lists where characters are ranked.

    S
    A
    B
    C

    The C tier characters are the worst and see little play.

    However, B tier characters can beat S tiers characters. It happens in tournaments.

    Somebody could win a cash tourney naked with a dagger. There is however no way he would have gotten to that level if he said the giant dad facing him in the finals was OP all his life.


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    Re: Introducing the Scrub.

    Post by Maneater_Mildred on Fri Apr 26, 2013 2:17 pm

    play to win wrote:So if I wait by a spawn point with hcsm already cast, then cast twop as an invader spawns, then my 2 phantoms hit him with WoG and backstabs while I chug estus.... Im just a pro playing to win with everything the game has available. If you call cheap! your a scrub? Hey scrub, L2P, im sure you will find a tactic to overcome me and my 2 pro friends..... If you play to win!

    Crazy logic is crazy.


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    Re: Introducing the Scrub.

    Post by Animaaal on Fri Apr 26, 2013 2:26 pm

    swordiris wrote:...You are mixing up "optimal" with "unbeatable"....

    I don't believe so. First of all no build is "unbeatable"...just like you elluded to.

    Also, the example of someone winning a Dark Souls tourney naked with a dagger is laughable, I'm sorry, but it would NEVER happen.

    Again, I'm NOT critizing your idea of fun. You're entitled to it, and I wouldn't be so arrogant to say you're not.

    I had a blast with my DMB griefer before I went on hiatus.
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    Re: Introducing the Scrub.

    Post by Seignar on Fri Apr 26, 2013 2:36 pm

    swordiris wrote:
    Seignar wrote:Luckily for me I had read a large part of that article (and all the others around there) before. You took the time to post the article of the scrub, but you didn't mention this one:

    What should be banned

    Basically, it agrees that there are things that must be banned competitively (Such as we did with TWoP). In the forum world, we aren't as scrubby as we (or at least how I) seem: We employ backstabs (all kinds), toggle switches, Dark Magic...all those things usually considered broken.

    What happened in the case of backstabs? Well, they were OP as OP could get, but we eventually found counter backstabs and now we laugh at the first BS fisher we get. Toggle switch is a glitch that is allowed in order to counter stunlocking (an OP tactic we had). Deadangling is a glitch that we use to counter turtles.

    The point is that, while this game was not designed from a competitive standpoint, it has been shown that we still followed those "predictions" were we discovered OPness, glitches and counters, then eventually got the skill to balance most things out. Then, we followed the "predictions" of the second article in that we banned certain things for being "Too Good!".

    As far as I know, the only things that I hard-ban are TWoP. Spears get on my nerves to no end and there is a thread discussing exclusively about them (that goes various pages long). Otherwise, we have no quarrel with anything else...except lag.

    I read your link to the Ban article. Another really good essay.

    Like he said though. Very rarely does something warrant a ban. I don't see how anything allowed within the rules of DkS should be banned. I haven't found much of a PvE purpose for twop so I believe it was made for PvP specifically.
    There exists only 2 rules for competitive play:

    1. Both players must be under equal grounds and item healing is forbidden.
    2. TWoP is soft-banned at the least, and definitely hard-banned in serious tournaments (What happened with Akuma).

    I see no other rules we as the forum community place upon ourselves. We complain X is overpowered (Which it is as the countless spear threads show), but we don't ban it and there have been many attempted counters to it. The no-healing rule is done simply because healing miracles are obsolete otherwise.


    Last edited by Seignar on Fri Apr 26, 2013 2:39 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: Introducing the Scrub.

    Post by swordiris on Fri Apr 26, 2013 2:38 pm

    Maneater_Mildred wrote:
    play to win wrote:So if I wait by a spawn point with hcsm already cast, then cast twop as an invader spawns, then my 2 phantoms hit him with WoG and backstabs while I chug estus.... Im just a pro playing to win with everything the game has available. If you call cheap! your a scrub? Hey scrub, L2P, im sure you will find a tactic to overcome me and my 2 pro friends..... If you play to win!

    Crazy logic is crazy.

    This whole thing was made specifically for 1V1's and 2V2's.

    The playing to win philosophy is only acceptable if the two players have access to the same resources. Obviously a Red can not summon phantoms, giving "Player 1" an advantage player two can not have.

    See the ban article one user posted. A thing should only be banned if two players have no access to it or it is a hack.

    The post above me explains it.


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    Re: Introducing the Scrub.

    Post by swordiris on Fri Apr 26, 2013 2:41 pm

    Seignar wrote:
    There exists only 2 rules for competitive play:

    1. Both players must be under equal grounds and item healing is forbidden.
    2. TWoP is soft-banned at the least, and definitely hard-banned in serious tournaments (What happened with Akuma).

    I see no other rules we as the forum community place upon ourselves. We complain X is overpowered (Which it is as the countless spear threads show), but we don't ban it and there have been many attempted counters to it. The no-healing rule is done simply because healing miracles are obsolete otherwise.

    I agree with you here.

    Except with no healing items unless maybe in tournaments.

    Spears are S tier but not Akuma worthy. I'm glad no one is banning them.


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    Re: Introducing the Scrub.

    Post by Seignar on Fri Apr 26, 2013 2:51 pm

    Understandably, healing items is debatable. We allow the use of mosses to heal aliments to counter ailment builds, but we try to forbid healing to counter builds in general.

    Imo, item healing should be forbidden in tournaments due to the necessity of encouraging healing miracles, but out of tournament competitiveness, healing with Humanity would not be a hard-ban in the rules of competitiveness as both players have access to it.

    In Demon' Souls, healing was never banned because both players had access to it, however, that game was not competitive (or it wasn't by definition) because the invading player was severely handicapped.

    The only real debate in terms of healing is whether Blessings and Mushrooms are permitted due to being finite per playthrough. Hence, both players cannot just have the same ground with these.

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    Re: Introducing the Scrub.

    Post by TehInfamousAmos on Fri Apr 26, 2013 2:54 pm

    swordiris wrote:

    If you are too honorable to do anything, you will never be better than the people who play to win.

    Did it occur to you that playing to win makes the game extremely easy. Perhaps self-imposed restrictions allow you to have more fun because you are actually having a minor challenge rather than just using Parmesan strategies. ****, people playing to win surely should just use Tranquil walk of death? That is a surefire victory for them. The issue is that it isn't challenging.

    Take a different game for example: League of Legends.

    You can tell whom is playing to win with the strategies/champions they use: Yorick for example is a champion for the braindead people meanwhilst AP nunu top lane is just obnoxious (especially in a 1v1). I don't shun people whom use these champions however I don't understand how it is fun doing this:




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    Re: Introducing the Scrub.

    Post by Maneater_Mildred on Fri Apr 26, 2013 3:09 pm

    swordiris wrote:
    Maneater_Mildred wrote:
    play to win wrote:So if I wait by a spawn point with hcsm already cast, then cast twop as an invader spawns, then my 2 phantoms hit him with WoG and backstabs while I chug estus.... Im just a pro playing to win with everything the game has available. If you call cheap! your a scrub? Hey scrub, L2P, im sure you will find a tactic to overcome me and my 2 pro friends..... If you play to win!

    Crazy logic is crazy.

    This whole thing was made specifically for 1V1's and 2V2's.

    The playing to win philosophy is only acceptable if the two players have access to the same resources. Obviously a Red can not summon phantoms, giving "Player 1" an advantage player two can not have.

    See the ban article one user posted. A thing should only be banned if two players have no access to it or it is a hack.

    The post above me explains it.

    But in dark souls both fighters never have equal footing, host has estus, invader has mobs to help fight, very rarely will an invader and host be the same lvl..... So by the above logic the play to win ideal does not fit darksouls... Except in the arena... Maybe?
    Darksouls is not a balanced fighting game. It's an action RPG.


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    Re: Introducing the Scrub.

    Post by Seignar on Fri Apr 26, 2013 3:24 pm

    Not true Mildred. Duels take place under a general agreement that Estus is not used, invaders don't use mobs and SL caps are made for the purpose of finding people of the same SL or very near yours. In a sense, it is not perfectly balanced, but all it takes is to make a tournament with the rules "Only SL X" and both players can be on perfectly equal grounds.


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